DPSchools: 40,000 kids to get laptops from stimulus funds

[Ravine]

I haven't read through this thread. I have heard this news, and I know what I think. I'm sure that some of the discussion, above, is interesting, but I'm tired. Tired of, and from, a lot of things.

So, I'm going to make a comment, here, and I'm already prepared for the hell I am likely to catch for making it. If I am echoing someone else's remarks, please excuse me for that; but, that's part of the reason why I haven't read the thread. I don't even want to know who I'm echoing and/or who I'm about to enrage or offend.

I think this purchase is a poor choice. That's a lot of money, money that could be spread out more effectively.
Further, while I have no personally-vested interest in the current state of the DPS, I think the DPS should be thinking of itself as being in Crisis Mode, State of Emergency, etc. There are some very basic problems which should be addressed before anybody becomes all lathered up about "joining the 21st Century."
The administration & faculty have a multiplicity of problems, just within themselves; I'm not even talking about their relationship to the students.
The students? How many of them are irregular in their attendance? If they don't show up, is anybody-- outside of teachers who take down attendance counts-- even noticing?
Do students who are likely to make it all the way through high school, and emerge from it still unable to perform simple arithmetical procedures and write a presentable sentence, truly need a goddam lap-top computer when they're in grade school?

This, here, is another case of folks at the bottom step wanting to just simply appear, presto!! at the top step, without having actually walked up the staircase.
Oh, we're hot-shots, now. We've got lap-tops. Our students-- the ones who show up-- can't spell, write, or divide 9 by 3, but we've got lap-tops.

And, none of that even touches on the theft issue. Does anyone really believe that those alleged built-in security programs & devices are non-compromisable?

[CLAUDE G]

At first I thought the kids where allowed to take the netbooks home, as they do in some other school districts. Im kind of glad this is not happening, as I can't imagine how many would turn up lost, broken or stolen.

But can anyone explain to me why all these computers need to be netbooks?

I understand it looks good when you walk into a classroom and you see one sitting on each kids desk and you think the kids are really learning something.

I think a more wise investment, would have been to purchase more full size desktop computers and then you don't have the issues with the theft and computers being broken or damaged as they are moved around.

In addition to providing more computers in each class room, you use some of that money to provide DESKTOP computers to students that families cannot afford to buy a computer, and maybe putting together a deal with Comcast or AT&T to provide basic internet to all of the students.

This way you make sure 100% of your students have access to a computer and internet, so they can do their homework.

Heck, maybe you can even install a camera in each class room and when the students are sick, they can participate in class from home on their computer.

Also, the screen sharing software sounds nice, but its less money to install a 50 inch LCD TV in each room or an overhead projector connected to the teachers work station.

[Meddle]

I think this purchase is a poor choice. That's a lot of money, money that could be spread out more effectively.
Further, while I have no personally-vested interest in the current state of the DPS, I think the DPS should be thinking of itself as being in Crisis Mode, State of Emergency, etc.

Agreed. This is a huge waste of money.

Just think, before long, all kids will be taught by a Central Educational Staff in Washington via computer links and videoconferencing. There won't be a need for teachers at all, or even schools.

They could even do it from their WiFi wired tenement projects while Momma One-Eye shoots up in the corner of the windowless room.

What the hell ever happened to TEACHING where kids actually had to work out math problems on paper, write things down without Smileys and LOLs? And what about doing research in a library? Oh yeah, you have to know the alphabet and be able to read to do that.

Do a few clicks and look things up on the web? Everything on the web is 100% true and factual, right? Nothing scientific or historical is tainted by some blogger's opinion, right? Not to say that 'approved' textbooks aren't opinionated either, though.

[Ravine]

The ironic aspect to the whole "joining the 21st Century" mood is that, no matter what kind of fancy shit with which you supply students, there are no short-cuts to learning language skills and basic arithmetical competence.
[[Folks who think the grads are deficient in mathematics are giving them too much credit. Figuring out how much money one should receive in change-- the bill was $7.41, I gave her a $20 bill-- is not math.)

[DetroitTeacher]

Meddle: We don't have librarians in the library anymore and the material is out of date. I do teach my kids the difference between valid sources and those that are questionable. I never allow Wikipedia to be used in research papers, either.

While I do think the money could have been better spent on something else, I am going to make the most of the Netbooks. With money being tight, we can use them for virtual field trips, presentations, research, blogging, interactive assignments and the like.

While I see everyone's point about knowing the basics, we do have kids who are beyond that and need more challenges in the classroom. Having the computers will allow for more challenging assignments and will allow for students who finish their work early to access some extra credit or something else with which to stimulate their brain [[I have kids at every level in my room). Making copies is not an option unless I pay for them myself and go to Kinkos [[like I did yesterday with my final exam). Having a computer will allow the kids to access things in the classroom and I won't have to make copies, it will right there in front of them. I know, they could have purchased copy machines but those copy machines break down more often than not and I still have to go to Kinkos.

Only time will tell how wise of a choice this purchase was...and I hope it proves to be a wise decision.

[DetroitTeacher]

Ugh, Blackboard? Wayne State uses it and I found it to be mostly a mess. But I don't know any of the alternatives, aside from the good system we had at UofM. I suppose if it's the best available, or if you're preparing students for WSU then more power to you.

I don't have access to the University type programs. Bb is what I have and it's free. I believe that the colleges pay for their online programming. I can only work with what's available to me. At least the kids are getting exposure to something! I really find Bb to be easy for me to work with and the kids don't have any issues with it. It works for us.

[Novine]

"What the hell ever happened to TEACHING where kids actually had to work out math problems on paper, write things down without Smileys and LOLs? And what about doing research in a library? Oh yeah, you have to know the alphabet and be able to read to do that."

If this was a suburban district, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Suburban districts spend this much and more on technology and no one blinks an eye. The only reason that we get these kinds of rants is that its DPS and the whole truckload of baggage that goes along with that in some people's minds.

I agree that students need to be learning the fundamentals and to the degree that DPS fails to do that, no amount of technology is going to help those kids. But can we stop the backwards rants about kids and computers? Technology is integrated into almost aspect of our lives and learning how to use and work with computers, software applications, the Internet, etc. is going to be vital to their future success. You couldn't even post your comments here without relying on a computer and a connection to the Internet so quit with the stupid "waste of money" and "teach these kids to learn the old-fashioned way" rants. There's plenty of examples of people who learned the "old-fashioned way" and can't post a coherent or factually-correct thought here and anywhere else you look on the Internet.

[muskie1]

I think that this is a welcome addition if used properly. One of the huge problems I see every day dealing with the public day is the lack of basic skills. I have met many individuals with advanced degrees who can not even do basic multiplication in their head and forget about division. The biggest offenders seem to be the current 20-40 yr. old group, even simple spelling is a problem and forget about using a dictionary or a phone book. I know that using a computer has made me forget most of what I knew about basic spelling and punctuation. I still try to do most math problems in my head or on paper.
The 3 R's seem to be getting lost in this day and age.

[bartock]

I haven't read through this thread. I have heard this news, and I know what I think. I'm sure that some of the discussion, above, is interesting, but I'm tired. Tired of, and from, a lot of things.

So, I'm going to make a comment, here, and I'm already prepared for the hell I am likely to catch for making it. If I am echoing someone else's remarks, please excuse me for that; but, that's part of the reason why I haven't read the thread. I don't even want to know who I'm echoing and/or who I'm about to enrage or offend.

I think this purchase is a poor choice. That's a lot of money, money that could be spread out more effectively.
Further, while I have no personally-vested interest in the current state of the DPS, I think the DPS should be thinking of itself as being in Crisis Mode, State of Emergency, etc. There are some very basic problems which should be addressed before anybody becomes all lathered up about "joining the 21st Century."
The administration & faculty have a multiplicity of problems, just within themselves; I'm not even talking about their relationship to the students.
The students? How many of them are irregular in their attendance? If they don't show up, is anybody-- outside of teachers who take down attendance counts-- even noticing?
Do students who are likely to make it all the way through high school, and emerge from it still unable to perform simple arithmetical procedures and write a presentable sentence, truly need a goddam lap-top computer when they're in grade school?

This, here, is another case of folks at the bottom step wanting to just simply appear, presto!! at the top step, without having actually walked up the staircase.
Oh, we're hot-shots, now. We've got lap-tops. Our students-- the ones who show up-- can't spell, write, or divide 9 by 3, but we've got lap-tops.

And, none of that even touches on the theft issue. Does anyone really believe that those alleged built-in security programs & devices are non-compromisable?

For what it's worth, I think your points are entirely reasonable and I sure as hell don't believe that those devices would be compromised.

I wonder a couple of things, though. First, if this money was earmarked stimulus money for technology upgrades, what other things may have qualified for those funds? Also, I wonder if Bobb believed that it was better to get something directly in the hands of the students immediately as opposed to running contracts, etc., through the school board or other bureaucratic BS.

EDIT: Would not be compromised. That is to say, I believe they would be compromised.

[Ravine]

[quote=bartock;212593]For what it's worth, I think your points are entirely reasonable and I sure as hell don't believe that those devices would be compromised.

I wonder a couple of things, though. First, if this money was earmarked stimulus money for technology upgrades, what other things may have qualified for those funds? Also, I wonder if Bobb believed that it was better to get something directly in the hands of the students immediately as opposed to running contracts, etc., through the school board or other bureaucratic BS.[/quote]

Lord knows, I can get behind that line of thinking.

As for you, Novine, you can describe it as a "backwards, stupid rant," but I still say it was a poor choice, unless the money was 100% designated as being for, and only for, that kind of stuff. If that was the case, well, what the hell; no point in saying, "No thanks," and sending it back.
However, your remark about the suburbs is empty, although I guess we all knew that the word, "suburbs," would make an appearance, or multiple appearances, in this thread.
When you write, "Suburban districts spend this much and more on technology and no one blinks an eye.," of course that is true, but the reason for the lack of eye-blinking is that so many of those districts have that kind of money, and don't have the plethora of pervasive problems plaguing the public schools in Detroit.
And, "The only reason that we get these kinds of rants is that its DPS and the whole truckload of baggage that goes along with that in some people's minds." No, I'm not launching some kind of half-witted, generalized screed about the bloated roster of ills throughout the DPS, nor am I reacting to something in my mind; I'm making a simple, direct statement about a specific issue, so while you seem to agree with some of my commentary, I think you are mis-reading the genesis of my views.
I just want Detroit's kids to graduate from high school armed with the knowledge & abilities that they need and deserve. All of the baggage, as you call it [[and that's a good way of putting it,) what the suburbs do or don't do... none of that plays into my statement or the reasons for it.

[English]

Meddle: We don't have librarians in the library anymore and the material is out of date. I do teach my kids the difference between valid sources and those that are questionable. I never allow Wikipedia to be used in research papers, either.

While I do think the money could have been better spent on something else, I am going to make the most of the Netbooks. With money being tight, we can use them for virtual field trips, presentations, research, blogging, interactive assignments and the like.

While I see everyone's point about knowing the basics, we do have kids who are beyond that and need more challenges in the classroom. Having the computers will allow for more challenging assignments and will allow for students who finish their work early to access some extra credit or something else with which to stimulate their brain [[I have kids at every level in my room). Making copies is not an option unless I pay for them myself and go to Kinkos [[like I did yesterday with my final exam). Having a computer will allow the kids to access things in the classroom and I won't have to make copies, it will right there in front of them. I know, they could have purchased copy machines but those copy machines break down more often than not and I still have to go to Kinkos.

Only time will tell how wise of a choice this purchase was...and I hope it proves to be a wise decision.

DT is one of our voices on the ground. Those in the schools say it will be a good thing, and have explained why. Anyone can have an opinion, but those who are actually working for DPS are giving the facts about the kinds of things that they need.

However, there is news this morning that Bobb and DPS are in violation of the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. I'll find the link and post it. We can applaud some things while critiquing others.

[English]

Here is the link:

Michigan advocate responds to MDE action against Detroit PS


http://ideamoneywatch.com/states/mi/?p=52

[13074Glenfield]

I would also agree that this is a terrible waste of money for several reasons. First, these kids needs to learn to basic math and reading skills, not how to use a computer. Second, if the purpose of these grants is to stimulate the economy in order to create jobs, I don't see how this will make the slightest difference in that regard. Third, at the pace that technology changes, these computers will be out of date very quickly. I'd suggest that what's missing is a home environment and culture that values and encourages learning and without that, nothing will help.

[English]

I'd suggest that what's missing is a home environment and culture that values and encourages learning and without that, nothing will help.

So what should teachers do? Throw up their hands and wail?

Half the problem in this region, not just with education, but in all sectors, is a defeatist attitude. Between this thread and the crime thread, I'm really disappointed.

[Danny]

New Laptops and computers for DPS students. What they going to do with it? break them up or steal them.

[English]

^ OK, going to step away from DetroitYES for a while. Time to take a break. DT, I wish you all the best with the start of the new semester.

[Schoolcraft]

If DetroitTeacher is encouraged about this, that's a good thing I guess....but count me among those who are skeptical about use of this money. I'd be very interested to know if there are even computer or technology classes in some of these DPS schools. I know when I was in school at DPS we barely had new equipment for the computer class we had, so I would assume classes like those would need better computers and other technology, instead of giving 35,000 kids cheapie laptops. The only positive I've heard so far is that the kids can "look stuff up"... well couldn't they do that before on their own computers or the computers the schools already had?? How about using the money for robotics classes or another elective class in which the kids could acutally learn something instead of dumbing things down for them even more by giving them laptops? How about a class where they can learn how to build the laptops themselves? Was the school board even involved in the use of the decision of this money? Whose idea was this?

[fryar]

[quote=Ravine;212605]

Also, I wonder if Bobb believed that it was better to get something directly in the hands of the students immediately as opposed to running contracts, etc., through the school board or other bureaucratic BS.[/quote]
Lord knows, I can get behind that line of thinking.

Is it possible that the more critical voices on this thread are frustrated with the netbook purchase because it does not seek to change the overall context within which it takes place, but rather simply takes place within it? Whatever its merits, to run with the example of the presumed DPS grad [[or dropout) who cannot calculate change in his/her head, it is true that this does nothing to change that. Or eliminate defeatist attitudes [[English prolly meant that differently). Or do away with corruption. Or fund after-school programs. Or whatever it is.

But that wasn't going to happen anyway [[sorry, English, for my defeatist attitude). Maybe I'm old-fashioned and clearly childless in the 21st Century, but my inclination is that DetroitTeacher's chalkboard-less classroom was not designed as some sort of high-tech learning environment, but is the result of some kind of prolonged systemic dysfunction. Like ambulances, I think the money could be found for a chalkboard. Under the right conditions. New leaves turning over and such.

If it was going to happen, DetroitTeacher would have her chalkboard, so to speak, already. The context in and of itself would not exist, and this netbook grant would be a great bounty. The problem is just that it isn't changing the context. But that's the same discussion as has already taken place in other threads about grants for light rail - no grant was forthcoming to address the context, so we might as well accept the one for netbooks and make lemonade.

And some of the comments above from those with experience in the classroom do make it appear as though they know how to put these things to good use.

[fryar]

half the problem in this region, not just with education, but in all sectors, is a defeatist attitude.

+1


It's hard to quantify [[half?), but yes.

[Novine]

"I just want Detroit's kids to graduate from high school armed with the knowledge & abilities that they need and deserve. All of the baggage, as you call it [[and that's a good way of putting it,) what the suburbs do or don't do... none of that plays into my statement or the reasons for it."

Computer skills and proficiency are part of the knowledge and abilities that kids graduating from DPS need to have to succeed in the world. They'll be competing with kids from suburban districts who will have gone through a K-12 system with access to technology both in school and at home. You expect kids from DPS to go off into the workforce or into a college or university with little or no exposure to computer technology and think they'll be able to compete? That's not realistic.

[Ravine]

No, that's not what I would expect; that's why I didn't say so.

Once more: Detroit needs to get to a point where its public-school grads possess adequate verbal & math skills. Failing that, exposure to computer technology will do them no good whatsoever, and the only world in which they will be able to compete is one populated by dolts.
Which, I suppose, means that their best bet is to stay in Detroit.

[DetroitTeacher]

Here is the link:

Michigan advocate responds to MDE action against Detroit PS


http://ideamoneywatch.com/states/mi/?p=52

I knew this years ago. Even though they are trying to fix it, it's still messed up and they are taking it from one extreme to another! The teachers all know what is wrong but we are powerless to fix it

[fryar]

Detroit needs to get to a point where its public-school grads possess adequate verbal & math skills.

That would be very significant indeed. But that's a whole set of issues far greater in scope than the netbooks issue. As a ferinstance, leaving aside the question of whether I am successful or not, I can only assume that a culture of expectation of failure exists in some quarters, where there is failure all-around, whereas I grew up in an environment in which at least some success was very much expected/the norm. I always anticipated being a stakeholder in society, and I'm not sure that would be the case if I lived in the conditions I read about on here [[aloof as I am).
Also, in fairness & for the sake of completeness, clearly some DPS graduates do possess adequate math and verbal skills, and some non-DPS grads don't.

Failing that, exposure to computer technology will do them no good whatsoever.

That is absurd. Of course it will make them more competitive in the real world, and better able to be informed citizens, and so on. Other than the waiters cited above [[and even then, only in some cases), nobody calculates change in their head anymore. You're fundamentally right that without the arguably giant leap you would like to see, there is a failure of education, no argument there, and that this has some very real repercussions. Personally, I am also very much in favor of critical thinking skills. But there's no way they need to be able to add in order to design a webpage, or provide higher value inputs to some kind of a knowledge product partially generated out of a developing country, or what have you. Baby steps, like the netbooks, are worth taking.

[13074Glenfield]

So what should teachers do? Throw up their hands and wail?

Half the problem in this region, not just with education, but in all sectors, is a defeatist attitude. Between this thread and the crime thread, I'm really disappointed.

The point is that teachers cannot fix what is fundamentally wrong in the culture. You have to get at the root problem and stop throwing money at it. To start, you can call the White House and tell the President to use his historic position as our first black president by encouraging learning. He should glorify those who achieve through that route and stop focusing on sports. He does these kids no good by paying attention to sports figures. He needs to encourage black men to stay with their pregnant girlfriends and not leave them. He ness to encourage black teen girls to stop having sex outside of marriage. And then you can call every other black political leader and tell hem the same thing. Studies demonstrate that children who come from homes that value learning, that have books available will learn better than those who don't. And,also, if you don't get to them by age three or four, they"re already lost.

Now I'm sorry if that sounds defeatist. The reality is grim. And all the laptops and dedicated teachers in the world won't make a bit of difference in a broken societal structure.

[Wintersmommy]

read an article today in the NY times about how thier kids are gettting I-pads and they get to take them home...technology is the future and we have to stay relevant
My daughters school has a very cool media lab, the girl I mentor in the city has 1 computer in the class and it doesnt work most times so she never uses computers in a school setting. Her mom cant afford a computer or the internet to go with it so she doesnt use one at home. She is 3 grades ahead of my child and a million years behind her technologically speaking.