Why is it a recession rather than the second Great Depression?

[Lorax]

You're right, of course, and I, too, am cynical.

All the more reason to take the money out of politics by having taxpayer funded elections. Campaign finance reform in the real sense of the word.

[oladub]

Lorax, Great idea about bringing the troops home to save some money. Ron Paul has always advocated bringing the troops home from all over the world and claims it could save $500B/year. But Americans decided to vote for someone who wanted to expand the Afghanistan war and not take troops out of Europe, Korea, etc.. Back to the math. How does saving $500B/yr. save Medicare?

"[[Clinton's) Comptroller General of the United States proclaims that our current standard of living is unsustainable unless drastic action is taken. He warns that funding shortfalls for the Medicare program program is five times worse than Social Security, and it will take $8 TRILLION to pay for what is promised today to beneficiaries, of which we have ZERO! " [[722,643 views)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS2fI2p9iVs

These numbers were from before Bush's Wall Street bailout and Porkulus were added.

[Lorax]

All the more reason not to trust the information.

[ccbatson]

Yes, war, and defense cost money...surprised? What is the alternative? No defense?

[ghettopalmetto]

Be painfully practical here....Medicare is imminently going to go bankrupt owing 62 Trillion in payouts over the next 15...maybe 20 years. If you reduced the haemorrhage by 90 percent, you might buy a couple of years [[presuming the impossible...that socialist entitlements cost less, not more over time)...but it is still terminal.

Absent the political will to phase out the doomed entitlement, we are left with terminally ill patient [[Medicare) that is highly contagious [[threatening to take down other corners of the economy).

How does that compare to the private system? Certainly, no hospitals have closed their doors in the past 20 years, right?

The simple, mathematical truth is that we currently pay 15% of our GDP [[and rising) in health care costs, while nations with socialized medicine pay somewhere around 10% of their GDP. Where does that extra 5% of our GDP go? And even spending 50% more based on GDP, we still have nearly 50 million people who can't get an appointment for a physical. How is this even remotely effective?

[ccbatson]

Private systems/free enterprise must have the element of risk and failure in order to function. Of course some competitors will fail.

They pay a little less, for a tremendously lower standard of health CARE elsewhere, and it is getting worse.

If you have 150 dollars, you can get an appointment for a check up with zero wait time, I promise you.

[ghettopalmetto]

Private systems/free enterprise must have the element of risk and failure in order to function. Of course some competitors will fail.

They pay a little less, for a tremendously lower standard of health CARE elsewhere, and it is getting worse.

If you have 150 dollars, you can get an appointment for a check up with zero wait time, I promise you.

Sure, some hospitals fail. Over the past 20 years, how many hospitals have opened in the U.S. vis-a-vis the number that have failed?

What is your objective measure for comparing quality of health care between the United States and nations with socialized medicine, such as Canada or Sweden?

If I have $150, can I get an appointment even if I don't have health insurance? What does it cost someone out-of-pocket if they do have insurance? What do I get for that money in each scenario? And if I'm poor, why would I spend that $150 on a doctor appointment before I spend it on rent or food?

[Lorax]

Far from it Batts. I have personal knowledge of the superior health care systems in many countries- the short list:

All EU member nations
Turkey
Mexico
Japan
Korea
Taiwan

Guess what, if you are an American traveling in any of these places and you need emergency surgery, or need some other emergency services, IT'S FREE. And it's superior to the long waits in American emergency rooms, where some people actually die waiting for help. It happens here in Miami as a routine.

If you elect to travel for health care, you can get a crown and dental bridge replaced in Mexico for 1000.00. Here it's 5000.00.

In Japan you can get state of the art heart surgery for 1/3 the cost, and you aren't thrown out of the hospital early by private insurers, you actually get to recouperate, and are not rushed out.

American women with breast cancer are increasingly using overseas options since for one, it's cheaper, better care, cutting edge treatments, and you aren't sent home with tubes still stuck in you like you are here.

It's the repugnican mantra that Ameican everything is the "best" in the world, it's not [[unless you've got Batt's enormous wealth) and smart people who do their research when they have life threatening, or financially bankrupting illnesses know it.

Even George Tush was on the TV telling us a couple of years ago that he discouraged Americans from buying their drugs from Canada, since the FDA hadn't inspected the drugs being sold. He was such a liar. These same drugs were MADE HERE, shipped to Canada, and resold to Americans, AND IT WAS STILL ALOT CHEAPER than buying them here, even after being exported and resold.

Goes to show how our for-profit pharmaceutical and health care systems are gouging us big time.

[ccbatson]

Access, wait time, choice, available/covered procedures.

If the Physician is not a provider for the insurance in question, then yes, 150 will do it. If he/she is a provider, he/she and the patient must abide by the terms of the insurance contract.

150 is a standard fee/collected amount for a History and Physical exam. You mentioned that people couldn't get the appointments, why someone would want such an appointment?? Lots of potential reasons, but you need to ask yourself that question as you were the one lamenting the limited availability of said appointments. Rent of food?? 150 dollars? More like a television, cable service, cell phone, alcoholic beverages, tobacco, entertainment. All of these expenditures are choices. That is the beauty of a free market...if you want/desire something, you weight the costs and are free to choose.

[ccbatson]

Funny, I can put you in touch with former, or current residents of all of those countries [[except Turkey) who will tell hair curling stories of the horrors of their countries socialized medicine systems.

[Lorax]

Likewise, I can tell you of hair curling horror stories of being in an American hospital as well.

I hope you don't ever need to use Jackson Memorial or Cook County General, or perhaps Detroit Receiving on a Saturday night in July.

Free markets have nothing to do with health care in civilized foreign countries. Health shouldn't be a choice based on wealth.

Since you have enormous wealth, you have many choices. I guess you don't mind being a business owner having employees walking around with illnesses. Shouldn't effect your productivity at all.

[rb336]

Funny, I can put you in touch with former, or current residents of all of those countries [[except Turkey) who will tell hair curling stories of the horrors of their countries socialized medicine systems.

a, yes, you and your so-clear understanding of science. you don't even know that anecdotes are not considered evidence. for every ONE anecdote you can produce, I can give you FIVE for our system, and the scientific surveys have supported that, as does common sense

I find it hard to believe that anyone would rater have their health care in the hands of greedy shits like "dollar bill." The object of private health insurance isn't to provide health care, quite the opposite. its goal is to deny health care as much as possible to maximize profit

[Lorax]

Ah yes, Dollar Bill Frist and United Health Care- fristing America one patient at a time!

[exdetroiter]

First off Recession and Depression are Synonyms.



Great Depression 
–noun the economic crisis and period of low business activity in the U.S. and other countries, roughly beginning with the stock-market crash in October, 1929, and continuing through most of the 1930s.

re⋅ces⋅sion1 
Economics. a period of an economic contraction, sometimes limited in scope or duration

[Bong-Man]

BTW libs...nobody has directly refuted in a compelling way that the principle of socialized housing [[or "affordable housing" per Barney Frank) is NOT at the heart of this crisis...Why? because it is, and it has liberal written all over it.

This guy is a liberal ?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/17/bu...hp&oref=slogin

[exdetroiter]

Its hard to believe this isn't the result of a second great depression
http://detroitnews.com/article/20090...come-unhitched

[ccbatson]

Synonyms, but a matter of degree.

Graham, BEING COVERED BY THE LIBERAL NYTs, is railing against one [[of the many) negative consequences of socialized housing in the form of subprime lending catastrophes. Subprime lending is a direct result of socialized hyousing where the liberal belief that everyone is entitled to a hous, whether they can afford it, or not. He is arguing against THAT, not free market housing.

[Lorax]

Wrong again, Batts, it was Bush who was advocating a home for everyone, especially those who were unable to afford one before. I sat there and watched it myself. Don't lie.

He drove people into the arms of unregulated lenders, banks, as a final push over the edge, cash grab, for his corporate buddies. Phil Gramm grinning his crocodile smile all the way. Knowing full well it was unsustainable, and immoral.

[mjs]

It was Bush who was advocating a home for everyone, especially those who were unable to afford one before. I sat there and watched it myself.

You mean a home loan for everyone, especially those that were unable to afford one. If they wanted a home for everyone, they would have actually cared if there was a default after it was resold on Wall Street.

[mjs]

In 2002, Americans spent 53 percent per capita more than the next highest country, Switzerland, and 140 percent above the median industrialized country, according to new research from the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. http://www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnew...hspending.html

Frontline shows a similar finding in a fantastic episode on this topic which can be found at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...roundtheworld/.

Attachment 1302

And yet the CIA says we're 45th on life expectancy while Canada is 14th and socialist Sweden is 10th. We're not getting our money's worth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ife_expectancy

[Lorax]

You mean a home loan for everyone, especially those that were unable to afford one. If they wanted a home for everyone, they would have actually cared if there was a default after it was resold on Wall Street.

I stand corrected.

[oladub]

Topic: "Why is it a recession rather than the second Great Depression?

It probably is a depression in Michigan and California, and except for the stock market, the economic slump is getting worse as measured by housing starts or jobs. The Bush/Obama spending schemes have managed to start eroding the dollar. Since March 3, 2009, the dollar index, as measured against other currencies, has slumped 8.7%. Ever wonder why gasoline prices are increasing? Multiply whatever you were paying for gas in March by 1.087 for starters. The government has been inflating the money supply and the chickens are starting to roost. This is even before the stupid middle class cap and trade tax is imposed. Time to tighten our belts. this is going to get ugly.

[ccbatson]

Bush may have said that it would be great if everyone could own a home...which is true, if they truly could afford to do so of their own efforts. That is vastly different than socializing the system and redistributing wealth to try [[but fail) to accomplish this ideal.

Don't be so quick to dismiss the impact on the stock market. It dropped 20 percent along with Obama's taking of office, and has held there...for now.

[DetroitDad]

The Middle Class on the Precipice

http://harvardmagazine.com/2006/01/the-middle-class-on-the.html


The Coming Collapse of the Middle Class



This is a pretty scary video worth watching.

[DetroitDad]

Physiognomy of Economic Depression

http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...426#post107426

The collapse of the FIRE Economy caught most mainstream economics reporters and editors by surprise. Since then the quality of coverage of economic data has improved somewhat. Sure, we still hear "green shoots" sold hard, as if the load of debt that holds the economy back can be wished away, yet we also see more skepticism and less willingness to accept assertions by industry analysts and economists at face value. Reports on economic data still lack historical perspective, but at least most don’t read like press releases anymore, yet readers are still being set up for major disappointment.

No two events of this type are alike. The similarities and differences show up in the data. What impresses us most is how unimpressed many appear to be about the seriousness of this depression. They ask why many restaurants are still booked up and why many malls are still busy, even if apparently the shoppers in them are buying less. Where are soup lines? Where is the high crime rate?

We remind them that we are only one year in to a multi-year process.

The average man or woman does not change his or her behavior until years after an economy has changed around them. No one likes change, even positive change but especially negative change. The tendency is to ignore change as long as possible, and hope it goes away and "normalcy" returns. Meanwhile, change goes on.

This depression is transforming the world around us. If you don't think so, I encourage you to take a closer look. On the surface much appears to be the same as, say, two years ago, but under the surface much has changed and is changing--shifting relationships among friends, families, and colleagues. Changes in circumstances affect the range of choices people can make. They make different decisions than before. Different decisions produce different results. Those results impact someone else's decisions. Collections of decisions combine in unexpected ways. One of the most obvious is that consumers buy less as a sustained reduction income and wealth influences purchasing decisions. As they do, after a lag, they will find that they have less to buy because retailers, wholesalers, and manufacturers eventually respond by consolidating or going out of business.

The economy has changed, behavior follows

The Great Depression is taught in American schools as a market crash on a Monday in October 1929 with soup lines forming shortly thereafter. Blurred-over are years of failed trial and error policies by politicians who desperately wanted to undo the damage caused by the preceding decade of credit excess. But as time went on, the damage that started off as abstract data on defaults, output, debt, and incomes began to show up unmistakably in the physiognomy of the economy. The world began to look depressed. That itself will later to have consequences, feeding back into changes in behavior.

The above link also has a video of a good discussion on why the current market rally is based mostly on speculation.