Ilitch Puts Damper on Downtown New Year's 2011 Celebration

**gnome** · January-01-11, 07:52 AM

drop a D? wtf? I thought we had a perfectly good metal carp head to ring in each new year.

**BShea** · January-01-11, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by Meddle

And I've been saying for a long, long time that Illitch is one of the worst of the worst of greedy old bastards. If it wasn't for him, a lot of downtown properties could have been developed instead of sitting vacant or being leveled to empty lots in some of his speculative deals and/or efforts to keep competitors away.

Who are these mysterious developers/investors that have been kept out of downtown? I don't see a real long line of people willing to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in the city being kept out of town. Was someone else offering to build a stadium or theater downtown?

And if they did build downtown, wouldn't you accuse those competitors of being "greedy old bastards" also? After all, they'd be "competitors" right?

Or are you assuming those competitors would be seeding communal acres of carrots and beets?

**DetroitPlanner** · January-01-11, 08:04 AM

Something stinks about this. Why on earth would MLB or Ilitch be against all that free marketing? Could it be cat-fighting millionaires? The ball was dropped in front of Compuware, while its owner is very Detroit friendly, he is still in competition with Ilitch due to the NHL.I am sure he would not like to have a giant neon red wing in front of his building!

I am with gnome ring the carp. We paid a ton of dough for that and it goes unused!

Ravine · January-01-11, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by BShea

Who are these mysterious developers/investors that have been kept out of downtown? I don't see a real long line of people willing to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in the city being kept out of town. Was someone else offering to build a stadium or theater downtown?

And if they did build downtown, wouldn't you accuse those competitors of being "greedy old bastards" also? After all, they'd be "competitors" right?

Or are you assuming those competitors would be seeding communal acres of carrots and beets?

Yeah.
The Fox had such a charming "lived-in" feel to it, about 40 years ago, but was Evil Mike content to let it stay that way?
Oh No. He had to march in, throwing money all over the joint. What a scoundrel.
And when Tiger Stadium was really starting to fall down all over itself and would have been forsaken by any sensible businessman, the ruthless bastard went ahead and sank a bunch more of his filthy, stinking dollars into up-grading it, making it good for another 20,000 miles, so to speak.
We sure do put up with a lotta shit from that guy.

**gazhekwe** · January-01-11, 11:42 AM

So, how was the party last night? We old fogeys turned in once the gunfire subsided. I think somebody out there had a rocket launcher. That thing was so LOUD!

**Ray1936** · January-01-11, 01:21 PM

All just another example of how lawyers can screw up everything.

**wolverine** · January-01-11, 02:01 PM

Couldn't they just have used an old english d under a font that was public domain? It's not like people are really going to notice nuances between that and the logo of the Tigers. I recall seeing the "d" used far back on the covers of very old Detroit Sanborn maps.....certainly a modified version from the modern Detroit tigers logo.

It's easy to make big legal action over snatching a unique logo or typeface a company or franchise uses, but when it's an alphabet letter, it can get tricky. Even if they slightly modified the Tigers logo, you could probably have a very legitimate claim against trademark infringement since there are thousands of variations of the old english alphabet that all look very similar.

**buildingsofdetroit** · January-01-11, 02:04 PM

He was originally going to re-create the famed old English D for the drop until he got cease-and-desist calls from Major League Baseball and the Ilitch family, which owns the Detroit Tigers.

"I had to reconstruct a whole new D on the fly," said Severson, who finished the D himself on Wednesday.

Now THAT'S the Mike Ilitch I know!

**maxx** · January-01-11, 02:05 PM

Detroit is more than just the Tigers. I didn't know they were doing that well as a team.

**iheartthed** · January-01-11, 02:05 PM

A lot of downtown Detroit still looks like crap despite the Ilitch family. Mike Ilitch is not the Messiah. Detroit existed before him and will continue to exist after him. One man does not make or break Detroit. He isn't Mr. Burns and Detroit isn't Springfield.

I think it was a bad call to use the Tigers logo even if the MLB had been on board. A "D" in another font would have gotten the point across just the same, and have been a better branding move for the city. Tying the image of the city to the logo of a sports team isn't the best idea... IMO.

**iheartthed** · January-01-11, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by wolverine

Couldn't they just have used an old english d under a font that was public domain? It's not like people are really going to notice nuances between that and the logo of the Tigers. I recall seeing the "d" used far back on the covers of very old Detroit Sanborn maps.....certainly a modified version from the modern Detroit tigers logo.

It's easy to make big legal action over snatching a unique logo or typeface a company or franchise uses, but when it's an alphabet letter, it can get tricky. Even if they slightly modified the Tigers logo, you could probably have a very legitimate claim against trademark infringement since there are thousands of variations of the old english alphabet that all look very similar.

Most likely they trademarked as many variations as they possibly could, even though they only use one of them officially. Trademark rules have to be very specific so owning the trademarks to close variants allows the org to have flexibility in pursuing the manufacturers of knock-off brands.

**Searay215** · January-01-11, 02:39 PM

That's it I am so pissed at this stupid thing I am going to register the entire alphabet at the trade mark office.....then we'll see who can put what where....Just kidding folks

But that is how stupid our society has become..... you can't say this or that, or have photo or drawing of this or that....WTF....let make 2011 the year of NON Political Correctness....Yipeee.

**detroitbob** · January-01-11, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

A lot of downtown Detroit still looks like crap despite the Ilitch family. Mike Ilitch is not the Messiah. Detroit existed before him and will continue to exist after him. One man does not make or break Detroit. He isn't Mr. Burns and Detroit isn't Springfield. .

Without the increased activity that results from the theatre's, stadiums, and other venues the north end of downtown the area would look a lot like Gary or Hammond.

**iheartthed** · January-01-11, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by detroitbob

Without the increased activity that results from the theatre's, stadiums, and other venues the north end of downtown the area would look a lot like Gary or Hammond.

If they are viable properties then those two blocks of Detroit would be fine whether it were him owning them or any other competent manager.

**Patrick** · January-01-11, 03:13 PM

I remember seeing vintage advertisements featuring the exact "D" way before the Tigers used it so not sure where they stand.

**detroitbob** · January-01-11, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick

I remember seeing vintage advertisements featuring the exact "D" way before the Tigers used it so not sure where they stand.

Again, as previously stated, MLB owns and controls and licenses team trademarks...for example the new Chinese place over on Congress and Shelby uses something similar BUT distinctively different. See http://www.wah-hoo.net/

If the necessary permissions were requested, the outcome might have been the same, but even the creator of the neon admitted they neglected to inquire about this.. Severson 's 10-year-old company which admits to sales of $11 million of neon products has licensing arrangements with many companies and copyright holders as clearly stated on the website. The web site has a Coors neon sign, stated as a licensed design, so I submit, if they had chosen to drop the Coors sign at midnight without permission, the Coor's legal department would have been sending the cease and desist order. See http://www.firehouseneon.com/

So, Detroit Dad, I suggest the title of the thread is in error... [[Ilitch Puts Damper on Downtown New Year's 2011 Celebration).

Bob

**Gistok** · January-01-11, 03:39 PM

Thanks for that intersting Chinese take on the old English "D" Detroitbob... maybe they can drop that ball during the Chinese New Year! [[But the restaurant should be asked first...

).

Umm.... political correctness and legal trademark issues are mutually exclusive...

Continue with the [[undeserved for this topic) Ilitch bashing...

**wolverine** · January-01-11, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Most likely they trademarked as many variations as they possibly could, even though they only use one of them officially. Trademark rules have to be very specific so owning the trademarks to close variants allows the org to have flexibility in pursuing the manufacturers of knock-off brands.

Yes, but proving a trademark violation is alot more than just similar logo identity. They'd have to also prove that the company/person in violation is:
- Confusing customers to which brand belongs to who
- Prove that the company/person is diminishing sales
- Used negatively in that the product/brand will be poorly represented.

I'm certain the mlb holds proprietorship over several variations of the old english d, but hardly to the range of font variations that you believe. There are literally thousands of variations you could do that a trademark simply could not cover.

Though the rules and legalities of trademarking logos and characters are pretty clear cut, pursuing legal action for a violation is not always the easist strategy. If the logo was an exact duplicate, I understand the mlb's concern....they don't want to set any precedents for letting individuals slip through the cracks of their trademark restrictions...but had this gotten any further when the actual logo being created and used for the event, it probably wouldn't be worth their time to take it to the courts. It's not like it's hurting sales of merchandise or creating negative connotations

**iheartthed** · January-01-11, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by wolverine

Yes, but proving a trademark violation is alot more than just similar logo identity. They'd have to also prove that the company/person in violation is:
- Confusing customers to which brand belongs to who
- Prove that the company/person is diminishing sales
- Used negatively in that the product/brand will be poorly represented.

Won't be too hard to make the last case, which I bet was the basis of the cease and desist order. They could make the argument that any potentially bad media associated with the event would harm the brand. That media could easily arise from something like a high-profile fatal traffic accident linked to the event [[e.g. a drunk driver leaving the event takes out a family of four who are on their way home from church).

**Wingnatic** · January-01-11, 05:49 PM

The font itself isin't against the law as anyone can buy that exact font and use it anyway they want . For example I do graphics and have some experience with fonts and have bought fonts , their mine to do what I want with them . I have 2 fonts [[Bookman Swash Medium and Bookman Medium ) 2 fonts that you'd see in '' Detroit Red Wings '' written out on their website and any other website . What I can't use the fonts for is to make a graphic with them, spelling out '' Detroit Red Wings '' with the same color as they do . Maybe that was the problem with the D , same color ?

**wolverine** · January-01-11, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Won't be too hard to make the last case, which I bet was the basis of the cease and desist order. They could make the argument that any potentially bad media associated with the event would harm the brand. That media could easily arise from something like a high-profile fatal traffic accident linked to the event [[e.g. a drunk driver leaving the event takes out a family of four who are on their way home from church).

No, your example is stretching it. What it means, for example, if you put the Detroit tigers logo on a T-shirt and had hateful or a negative sentence or phrase printed beneath it, it would be in violation. Technically positive as well...but really the whole purpose of trademarking is to defend a brand.

As I stated before, it's not really how they use logo that matters, it's to prevent a precedent being set that using their logo is okay in any occasion. It's sad that it has to be that way, but at least the rules are the same for everyone.

**dookie joe** · January-01-11, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by Ravine

Yeah.
The Fox had such a charming "lived-in" feel to it, about 40 years ago, but was Evil Mike content to let it stay that way?
Oh No. He had to march in, throwing money all over the joint. What a scoundrel.

Shit, if the city had given me the sweetheart deals it gave Ilitch, I'd have taken out 2nd and 3rd mortgages on my house and invested every dime I had into some of those "ventures" downtown -- and I've got a hell of a lot less wiggle room than St. Michael the Ilitch did.

[And when Tiger Stadium was really starting to fall down all over itself ....

Man, you're two or three steps behind the City/Ilitch Party Line Lie train.

Coleman Young first spouted "The damn thing is falling down" line. Architects said otherwise; with regular maintenance, they said Tiger Stadium would be just as solid as Fenway Park is now.

The next stop on the City/Ilitch Party Line Lie train was the claim it would spur economic development. That one had a bit of a shelf life, but by the time Detroit got around to scamming the taxpayers -- oops -- building a new stadium, that lie had been laid bare.

The final stop was "The Tigers can't compete without a new stadium/luxury boxes."

Get with the party line, dude.

...and would have been forsaken by any sensible businessman, the ruthless bastard went ahead and sank a bunch more of his filthy, stinking dollars into up-grading it, making it good for another 20,000 miles, so to speak.

Who says no other sensible businessman wouldn't have bought a major league franchise? I bet there would have been several who bought the Tigers; there were more moribund franchises than Detroit's being purchased around the time Ilitch bought the Tigers.

We sure do put up with a lotta shit from that guy.

Well, I'm still teeming with civic pride at how Ilitch got his buddies in the city to pull eminent domain on that lady for her parking lot, only to hand it over to Ilitch to use as ... a parking lot.

Hand on my heart, I salute thee, St. Michael, for saving our city.

If threatening legal action against a gothic-looking "D" is "just good business," then what's Mike's rationale for not allowing Sparky Anderson's name on the Comerica Park wall? Is that more "just good business?"

Or, perhaps, is Mike Ilitch a petty bastard who happens to have had a long-running feud with Karmanos? It's no secret that Ilitch and Karmanos hate each other, just as Ilitch hated Bill Davidson, who made him look bad by having the temerity to pay for his own damned stadium, and not saddle taxpayers for his private enterprise. Oh, I'm sorry; this is a salute to Mike. A hardy Hee-Haw Saaaaaa-LUTE.

psstt...I know the real story behind what happened New Year's Eve: Atanas threw a hissy fit because his lame-ass band didn't get to headline the show. The organizers had them slotted into the dreaded 6 p.m. time slot. Atanas told Denise, who whined to Mike, and St. Michael the Ilitch brought down His Wrath from On High in the form of a strongly-worded court order.

Yay, Mike. Yay, Detroit.

**dookie joe** · January-01-11, 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by wolverine

No, your example is stretching it. What it means, for example, if you put the Detroit tigers logo on a T-shirt and had hateful or a negative sentence or phrase printed beneath it, it would be in violation. Technically positive as well...but really the whole purpose of trademarking is to defend a brand.

As I stated before, it's not really how they use logo that matters, it's to prevent a precedent being set that using their logo is okay in any occasion. It's sad that it has to be that way, but at least the rules are the same for everyone.

Your example is a red herring argument, because the Tigers don't own a copyright on all gothic-looking alphabet letters, D or otherwise.

Now, if I were to start a baseball team called, say, the Detroit Kitties, and I used a logo that was similar to the Tigers', then they would have an argument in court.

But they don't own gothic "D's" any more than Motown Records [[or whichever corporation currently has its turn with the old whore) owns the word "Motown," a term which has been around since the 1920s. There have been Motown coney islands, sodas, garages, etc. Same thing in Ohio with "Buckeyes." You think the university sues every diner that calls itself "The Buckeye Grille"???

There are "bootleg" tee-shirts and hats everywhere that use a variation on the copyrighted Tiger logo; is Ilitch and MLB suing all those manufacturers? You can't go into a gas station or store anywhere near Detroit without seeing a slew of "bootleg" hats; why aren't these places being cited and fined?

If Ilitch and MLB aren't going after these places with court orders, then the argument that he's merely protecting his copyright is full of holes, since the Tigers stand to lose a hell of a lot more money in bootleg hat sales than they would by allowing a gothic "D" to fall from Compuware.

**dookie joe** · January-02-11, 12:06 AM

Say, the Compuware "D" looks an awful lot like the "D" on the Tigers' road jerseys, with the script "Detroit" across the breast.

Perhaps Ilitch is firing up another court order as we speak...

**dookie joe** · January-02-11, 01:19 AM

Imagine Frank Navin issuing cease-and-desist orders to J.L. Hudson when he hung that huge banner on his store to congratulate the 1934 Tigers on winning the pennant.