Do we still call this an American car?

[cheddar bob]

PurpleHeart....I've been saying the same things since I joined DetroitYes back in 2007. You are 100% correct. Unfortunately, all of these people who preach that they will purchase foreign cars because of a perceived notion that "foreign is better" have already been bitten in the a$$. Look at our economic situation today. Anyone who thinks that our economy is in the toilet because of UAW workers is sadly mistaken. Our economy is in the toilet because of people thinking that even if they purchase foreign, things will still be okay in the U.S....WRONG!

WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA!
OUT OF A JOB YET? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN.

How's that foreign made Macintosh you were wanting to buy? This guy blathers on relentlessly about buying American, but when shown an American, union assembled computer, he chose to ignore it and went with the Mac. What you say shouldn't mean shit to anybody here because you're a proven, first class hypocrite. "Keep buying foreign", indeed.

Just in case you missed it, here is the link to a union built, American PC...
http://www.unionbuiltpc.com/home.php


Remember what computer you buy, computes America.

[East Detroit]

That it is true, but it does not disprove his original point.

If people don't believe in the American auto industry, why not just move the fuck out of Detroit? Your self-loathing and whining is disgusting and annoying. This is the Motor City. We should be PROUD and not EMBARRASSED. If you want to live in the city famous for serving Subway sandwiches, move there. "Wahhh... our buildings are falling down... I don't know why...."

Ford now has initial quality second to none and better than Hondas, Hyundais, etc.... but I still see fuckheads who live in Metro Detroit buying imports and transplants because they are either ignorant or think it indicates that they have some prestige. Next time you're driving down the road, though, remember that people are disgusted by you and laughing at you at the same time. You haven't proved shit.

Like I said earlier:

1. Profits go to where?
2. Engineering is done where?
3. Vehicles are built where?

Ford Focus, Ford Mustang, Ford F-150... the answers to all three vehicles and all three questions is MICHIGAN. METRO DETROIT.

Next time you're whining about having no job or working in a sandwich shop or wondering why charities and events aren't getting corporate sponsorship and why our infrastructure is falling apart... ask yourself why you're too much of a dumb fuck to buy an American vehicle matching the 3 criteria above.

And before you respond with "Yeah, but...." please book a plane ticket the fuck out of here.

[Retroit]

There sure is a lot of fucking going on in this thread!

NOT FUCKED YET? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN.

[Buy American]

Other than a person's home, an automobile is the biggest purchase you make over your lifetime. Consider how many cars an average person purchases over 50 years. People like Cheddar Cheese don't consider what that means in the long term. A small ticket item like a computer in no way comes close to car purchases which could total over $300,000 per person if they purchase a new car every five years at $30,000.00 a copy for 50 years. Figure that if every American purchased an American car instead of foreign what the economy would look like today.

Cheezy said "This guy blathers on relentlessly about buying American, but when shown an American, union assembled computer, he chose to ignore it and went with the Mac.".....I suppose you know this for a fact?

WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA!

[Gannon]

Let me go one step further...this isolationism viewpoint of blindly buying from your home country REGARDLESS OF THE DRIVING POINTS OF THE PURCHASE are a huge portion of the problem.


YOU, BuyAmerican, and your blind-deaf-dumb views are killing our country, through the myopia of the quarterly-reporting corporations.


I refuse to purchase a major investment in an inferior product. Period.


Fuck you for suggesting I reduce my requirements to what your local company chooses to market.

If that fucks us all, it is the fault of the corporation that chooses to market products that don't fit MY desires and needs.


I refuse to put up with the negatives served up by the usual American car dealership. That is the FACE of each corporation, for the average consumer. The corporations LET it run rampant for decades. It is out-of-control now.


The one shining light is the Saturn dealerships, and GM wants to sell them off to some enterprising visionary foreign manufacturer now. As they've done with ALL the good ideas they've had in the past...well...my ENTIRE lifetime.


No, I am NOT the problem, and I will not stand for lame-brains tagging the bulk of the responsibility upon ME. I simply choose what is best for my needs and budget. I will NOT stop this, nothing less will suit and benefit me.


It is on the car companies, the unions, and the dealership network to fix. If they have to largely fail in order for them to see the light, then so be it.


Cheers.

[cheddar bob]

Other than a person's home, an automobile is the biggest purchase you make over your lifetime. Consider how many cars an average person purchases over 50 years. People like Cheddar Cheese don't consider what that means in the long term. A small ticket item like a computer in no way comes close to car purchases which could total over $300,000 per person if they purchase a new car every five years at $30,000.00 a copy for 50 years. Figure that if every American purchased an American car instead of foreign what the economy would look like today.

Cheezy said "This guy blathers on relentlessly about buying American, but when shown an American, union assembled computer, he chose to ignore it and went with the Mac.".....I suppose you know this for a fact?

WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA!

If you were so intent on "buying American", the price of the product wouldn't matter. You would want to buy as many American made products as possible, regardless of size or price. I guess buying American products only matter if they are the products that Buy American says are important. Whatever you say, hypocrite.

I don't know if you bought the Mac or not, I was just going on this statement...

Buy American | 04-21-2009, 09:17 AM | Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 27 #19

^^^^^Thanks again for all the advice, both pro and con. I am sold on the Mac.

WHAT COMPUTER YOU BUY, COMPUTES AMERICA!

[Buy American]

"If that fucks us all, it is the fault of the corporation that chooses to market products that don't fit MY desires and needs."

Therein lies the problem....just think about yourself and what's good for you and screw America.

Make all the excuses and argue all you want but the proof is in front of your faces today, right now. I sincerely hope you have secure jobs, homes paid for, kids college fund all set up and your neighbors homes aren't in foreclosure [[that will most certainly bring the price of your homes down considerably); if that is not in place then you're in big trouble. I, myself, for the most part am in good shape financially due to good planning my entire working career. You choose to blame the Big 3 for the problems but don't want to accept the fact that, even with their problems, the Big 3 and their subsideriaries, suppliers and everyone else affiliated with the Big 3 were the major employer in the U.S. Without that, the U.S. is doomed. China and Japan will be out of here when there is nothing left to destroy in the U.S.

WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA!

[Gannon]

Dude,

You are so worked up over things you cannot control that your thinking is NOT clear.

This is the end of the industrial age.

We have to move onto the next thing.

Put your considerable energy crying over this already spilled milk into helping imagine and create our new lifestyle [[devoid of the trappings you list above, thankfully) and get to work growing your own food.


Learn to survive...and please stop your finger-pointing.


It was the marketing department's of the big three and the execudroids above who made the poor decisions to make product that was unacceptable...the unions who grew as fat as the cats they fought for so many years...and the dealerships who largely chose the sales and service techniques from the Marquis de Sade's rule book that chased nearly ALL thinking individuals away over forty years.


They should've woken up with that cute little Beetle's success...and THAT was in the sixties. They continued to sleep at their own wheel.


And you want to blame ME for their demise?


You and those who think like you are the sorry apologists for a dead horse.

Somehow you still think it can get up and ride again.


All I see tells me differently. It is not my fault in any way, shape, or form...and I not only fully reject your lame premise, I give it back to you corrected.


Cheers

[Buy American]

Dude....just what is the next thing for people in Michigan and around the U.S. that depend on the Big 3 for their lives?

[Gannon]

Great question. Deserves it's own thread.

We need to rethink from the ground up.

Limiting our reliance on corporations and government are a good place to start the weaning.

[bobby wobby]

The problem with American automakers is their located in America, where our style of capitalism is rotting to the core.No other country western or eastern would let GM one of the biggest company's in the world fail. We went from the greatest nation on earth making the greatest products on earth, to a nation of in debt shopper ran by unscrupulous greedy billionaires who would sell out their own mothers ,let alone us ,for the right price. So don't feel happy watching the last American manufacturing sector fall into the sea its only a matter of time till we all join them.

[rb336]

Did the car you own contribute to the death of Americans?
None of mine has

first off -- mostly right. judge by 1st whether the profits go off shore or stay here.

but -- both ford and gm continued to operate factories for the Nazis, and IBM continued to supply technology

[Johnnie Sue Bridges]

I must admit that my last two cars were Honda Accords. I bought these cars after much research. The research proved correct. Fantastic cars, very low maintenance if any other than the regular stuff like oil changes etc…

I also purchased a second car during my ownership of the two Honda Accords. It was a Ford Taurus, and I spent a small fortune trying to keep the thing running.

I work long hours in a hospital laboratory, and I travel ½ an hour each way to my job on a workday. I cannot afford to dump money into a vehicle every time I turn around for repairs, towing costs, and not to mention, if you are late to work from sitting on the side of the road waiting for a tow truck, I’ll lose my job.

I have talked to many people about this situation, and most folks like me bought reliable cars so we could stay rolling while trying to get back and forth to work.

I agree that we as Americans have purchased too many foreign cars, and by doing so, aided in buying ourselves into the mess we are in today.

However, does anyone think I should have continued to purchase an American made vehicle that would cause my children and I to be stranded on the side of the road, and most of my paycheck spent on repairs, or should I have purchased a well-researched vehicle to safely transport myself and my children securely to and from our destination, with no extra out of pocket daily towing money spent?

Over and above all the upper corporate level executives that paid themselves handsomely, we, the American consumer, need to do what we can to bring it back home.

I am getting ready to purchase a new car. I am looking specifically looking for an American made car with low gas mileage, with the best incentives I can find—one that will not put me on the side of the road waiting for a tow truck. Anyone have any suggestions?
Thank you
God Bless America
Johnnie Sue Bridges

[pffft]

There are plenty, Johnnie Sue...depends on what size you're needing.

The Chevy Malibu is a world class sedan ...big enough for the kids etc. Pontiac Vibe -- hope it becomes a Chevy Vibe and isn't dumped -- is great if you don't mind smaller. Both are good on gas and very highly rated for reliability.

[KENSINGTONY]

It's kind of an open secret how the German properties of our domestic car companies were building equipment for the Axis powers during WW2.So,indirectly,yes,our companies did unfortunately help kill Americans back then.

[Trumpeteer]

http://news.taume.com/World-Business...Tennessee-5857

That better? More clear?

You called it as being in Smyrna GA so hopefully you cleared up your own confusion. That better? More clear?

[Patrick]

This is the end of the industrial age.

We have to move onto the next thing.

Ain't gonna be your grand-dad's assembly line job that's for damn sure.

[darwinism]

Just because it is an American brand-name doesn't give it the privilege to produce crappy products and selling it at unreasonable prices.

This is exactly what is wrong with Detroit, and Michigan as a whole. Everywhere you look, there is this unbelievably strong sense of entitlement. In politics, just because your best friend is a contractor, therefore you give him all the city contracts. Just because your cousin needs a paycheck, you put him on the payroll on the city's dime. And of course, just because the car company is American by blood line, therefore whatever you drive should be manufactured by it. That is utter BS.

Just as Gannon said earlier, it is a different world now. If you want to compete, you've got to compete on merit. If Toyota and Honda make better quality cars, and sell them at more reasonable prices, then they deserve to earn the customers' dollars.

I am also beginning to visit dealerships and checking out cars. I do not discriminate by brand-name. I do my research online, and I give every company, regardless whether it is domestic or foreign, a fair chance. I start out at Cars.com and the American-Made Index and then proceed to the J.D. Powers Initial Quality Study. Then I walk-in to the showrooms to do a test-drive. Pretty simple process. In fact, by virtue of looking at the American-Made Index, I am already being slightly bias towards the domestic automakers.

At the end of the day, folks, we've got to make good buying decisions for ourselves and our families. GM, Chrysler and Ford have the chances to make good business decisions for themselves decades ago. I am confident they can remake themselves. It doesn't get any more obvious than Hyundai. Hyundai was the laughing stock and late-night talk show host favorite punching bag for years when their cars were crap. And they even have the disadvantage of being a foreign car company. Yet today, they are at the top of the game, even scoring an award at the auto show here in Detroit with the Genesis.

Ford used to have a best-selling car in the United States with the Taurus between 1992 and 1996. Unfortunately, things went downhill after that, losing the crown to the Camry. At this juncture, it is looking like Ford may be on to something - the Fusion is on the move up the charts. Ladies and gentlemen, domestic automakers and auto leadership needs to realize a very important notion that even the local neighborhood deli owner understands - Usually, there is ONLY ONE CHANCE to make A POSITIVE IMPRESSION. Make great products, and prove to America and to the world that "What We Drive, Drives America and the World".

[CountrySquire]

You called it as being in Smyrna GA so hopefully you cleared up your own confusion. That better? More clear?

Excellent! Glad you are on track now, good to know it took just that little bit of clarification to set you straight.

[heedus]

Darwinism, great post. I think you touched upon a number of critical issues. I'd just like to add a few things:

[[1) Public perception of the Big 3 is tainted by their poor performances in the past. In the past few years, all three companies have made huge strides in making their respective companies more competitive. Because some people simply refuse to even consider cars made by the Big 3, I truly think that "Consider American" is a better slogan. I sincerely hope that more prospective car buyers at least give the Big 3 a look, especially considering that GM appears to be following Chrysler into Chapter 11.

[[2) I worked as a auto analyst for a very large Japanese automotive supplier for a few years and learned that the Japanese are extremely protective of their industries. To the extent that the Japanese can keep engineering, production, legal, marketing, human resources, etc. in Japan or at least in the hands of Japanese decision-makers, they will. Also, every decision is very deliberate and based on the bottom-line. When our CEO announced that our company was donating money to the Charles H. Wright Museum of African-American History, he told our company that it was because African-Americans will continue to become a larger segment of the car-buying public, not because the museum celebrated an important part of American history that had often not received its fair share of attention. Finally, Japan [[and the other auto-producing nations) strongly support their respective automotive companies by purchasing their products, subsidizing R & D, and providing health care to their workforce.

[[3) This country is shifting wealth to other nations at an alarming rate. While oil is the starkest example, the wealth shift to foreign auto-producing nations could become quite large, even if those companies were to keep and even increase their production presence in the United States. For instance, say the average profit/car = roughly $1,000. With, on average, 14 to 16 million vehicles sold in the U.S. per year, that's 14 to 16 BILLION dollars in profits that could be transferred out of this country every year if the Big 3 were to disappear. And that's just profits, it doesn't include other costs that directly benefit foreign companies [[building rental in Tokyo, Shanghai, or Stuttgart; administrative salaries in those countries; accounts receivable paid to foreign-owned suppliers; etc.) or take into account the fact that much of the engineering and production takes place outside the U.S. I would much rather have some of that money go to a UAW worker to help her put food on the table, send her kids to college, and purchase a home in this area.

[CountrySquire]

Korean cars are still the worst investment from a resale standpoint. Your 22K Kia Sedona is only worth about 3.5K after four years of owner ship. I rented a Hyandai Elantra last summer and found it very cheaply produced compared with the previous Chevy Cobalt I rented.

[jiminnm]

Heedus, your point #1 is key. The Big 3 lost a generation, maybe two, of car buyers with the crap produced from the early 1970s-early 1990s. I know many people who don't even look at GM, Ford or Chrysler, saying that they just don't trust them on any level. The view looking from elsewhere into Detroit and Michigan is clearly different than those there looking out. If the 3 can't overcome that hurdle, they will cease to exist.

If the so-called Big 3 have to rely on people buying American [[or, essentially, refusing to buy Toyota, Honda and others), then they will also cease to exist. The 3 must win in the marketplace by producing the best cars in terms of engineering, design etc., while explaining and demonstrating that to car buyers. If they lose another car buying generation, they're done.

CountrySquire, you're right, but the Korean makers get better every year. I would estimate that they're where the Japanese were 20-25 years ago and improving at a much faster rate, and the car mag and various consumer reviews of them reflect that. I am amazed how many Kias and Hyundais I see on the road here in NM.

[Patrick]

The way I see it is that I want to support my neighbors, family and friends. It's not really a "Buy American" view from me. Really, it's a "buy local" set of ideals. How am I supporting the Detroit area from an economic standpoint when I by a Subaru or a Honda? Do these companies have major facilities in the area? If Honda set up a tech center or plant in SE Michigan, I would support them. Call my way of thinking close-minded or regionalist, but that is just me. Toyota and Hyundai both have tech centers near Ann Arbor so they are local to me.

[darwinism]

Those of us here at DetroitYes, are probably more forward-thinking than the typical Metro Detroiter. This is an important reality-check, because we all probably know one of them folks who has a "WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA!" and "OUT OF A JOB YET? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN." bumper stickers.

Let's dissect the situation a little;

1) When they say, "What you drive, Drives America!", they actually meant "What you drive, Drives Fictional Detroit!" - Because the fact of the matter is that outside of SE Michigan, the rest of America does not feel the same way.

2) When they say, "Out of a job yet? Keep buying foreign.", they actually meant "I am unemployed, because while I blame foreign automakers; my shoes, my pants, the shirt on my back, my children's toys, my computer, my gym equipment and 90% of what I own and bought are foreign-made." - Because the fact of the matter is that outside of SE Michigan, the rest of America is happy buying foreign cars because foreign car companies contribute positively to their communities too.

Dear forumers, there are too many factors that have caused the downfall of GM and Chrysler. Sadly, the biggest chunk of blame goes towards the automakers themselves, and not the car-buying public. Chrysler and GM have been shooting themselves in the feet, time and time again, over and over again. For example; if GM had devoted itself to the electric vehicle initiative, back in 1996, with the EV1, and dedicate itself wholeheartedly ..... the Prius wouldn't have been able to gain such a huge stronghold. After all, the first Prius came into the market in late 1997. More recently, the Saturn division, was perhaps the best artillery GM has against Honda, Toyota and Nissan. But of course, they decide to pawn it off.

Now, think about it for a moment, when the Detroit Lions fucked up their draft picks, time and time again, over and over again, we sure got pretty pissed off, correct? Frankly, those of us who are GM fans, are also very frustrated that GM keeps on fucking up. And right now, I can't blame the rest of America for being outraged that their tax dollars are being used to support perpetual stupid business decisions. Let's not even get into Chrysler, and their relationship with Daimler, being followed by a private takeover in Cerberus. That can of worms is just downright nasty. Obviously, Chrysler's decision-making ability isn't too sharp either. Remember the 'Hemi' marketing campaign as recent as 2-3 years ago ..... what were they thinking?!? Don't they see that gas prices were past $3 and rapidly rising to $4!?!

Yes, no doubt, I am fired up about this topic, because just like many of you - it hits close to home. I have family, relatives, close friends working for the domestic automakers, foreign automakers, as well as Tier 1 suppliers that provide for both the domestic and foreign automakers.

Buy American: I trust that you know very well, deep down, who to blame. I trust that as long as you are not in denial, not insane, not brain-washed ..... you will point your finger at the same people that I am pointing at - And it is not folks like Gannon or Cheddar Bob.

As I had mentioned above, similar to Johnnie Sue Bridges, I am also looking at new cars. For my purposes, needs and price range, the Ford Fusion, Chevy Malibu, Toyota Prius and Honda Insight are currently in the Final Four.

[PurpleHeart]

first off -- mostly right. judge by 1st whether the profits go off shore or stay here.

but -- both ford and gm continued to operate factories for the Nazis, and IBM continued to supply technology

please offer a citation or quote/link for your statement