Do we still call this an American car?

[1KielsonDrive]

I think Baselinepunk and DetroitDad make the most important points here. We can scream all we want to about 'patriotism' and 'buy american', but corporations are now, and have been for years, running the world. Voting gets you very little in this world economy. Lobbying gets you whatever you want. A vote is worth pennies and lobbying is worth billions. Occasionally, there's a revolt, but not often enough to severely impact corporare agendas for more than a short time. With all due respect to PurpleHeart, 'patriotism', is an over used cliche, much like 'faith'. I'm not calling you out personally, I'm just saying that it's meaning is variable from one person to another. I can give you examples of my father's patriotism, mine and my friend's who've served in wars and protested against them. They're all different. I know because we've spent our lives trying to define it. Aside from the 'patriotism' issue, you make some important points.

[Roq]

An American Car is NOT A TRANSPLANT, you can fool yourself all day long or might be one of those people who just like to buy foreign because you think that foreigners make better stuff. But the next time you pull out from that parking lot in your transplant don't fool yourself, your money is going overseas and is included in our trade unbalance which will turn around and bite each and every one of us in a place where the sun don't shine. Hence; Have you lost your job yet? Keep buying foreign?

Oh, I'm out of line here?????

You are absolutely right...what matters, and what people don't seem to grasp is, where the profits go.

[missn]

Thank you rid0617. Well stated. A very important point. I've been asking the question for a long time: what exactly constitutes a US and/or a foreign made car? What will buying a car from a US company, that buys that car from a foreign country, do to preserve and expand US jobs?

My 2006 Dodge Grand Caravan came off the line in Canada. It is North American made,with many US parts, but built outside of this country. My 2003 Toyota Tacoma came off the line in Kentucky, with many foriegn made parts, but built in the US.

So which one is an import?

[wash_man]

I've had this debate [[argument) before on this forum, but I'll say it again. I would NEVER own a car that isn't built by Ford, GM, or Chrysler. However, some of you seem brain washed about "where the profits go." The transplants make a profit on the cars they build here. Some of those profits go to support the states and local communities via taxes. The employees pay state, federal, FICA, and medicare taxes on their wages. Would you rather have the transplants pack it up and head home, leaving the plants abandon and the employees unemployed? The foreing nameplates are not going away so we're better off having them here than not. What about the Ford Fusion everyone is raving about? Oh, that's right...the fucking thing is made in Mexico by people earning $1.60 per hour and live in card board shacks. But it is still an "American" car because Ford profits from the sales. Here's an idea.....move ALL D3 production off shore including drive trains, interiors, everything. Don't make ANYTHING here. That should be great since it will boost the profits coming back to Detroit. You people don't have a clue.

[rid0617]

There isn't an assembly plant in Smyrna Georgia.

Smyrna Tennessee

[Retroit]

If every American car buyer only bought American made cars, American car makers would not be building cars [[or as many cars) outside the country as they are, and foreign car makers would not be building cars in the US.

The reason that American car makers are building cars outside the country is because they must compete with foreign automakers, who are able to build cars cheaper. The reason that foreign car makers are building cars in the US, I have stated above.

So to answer your question missn, your Toyota is an "import" because if Americans didn't buy foreign cars, all the Toyota workers in Kentucky would be working for the Big3. And if no Americans buy Big3 cars, all our cars will be made in foreign countries, Toyota will shut down their factory in Kentucky because it is too expensive, and whatever town it is in will look like Detroit.

[LodgeDodger]

At the time I purchased my Subaru, GM owned 40% in Fuji Heavy Industries.

Say what you like about any of the cars out there, for what it is, there is nothing that equals my Subaru Outback.

My last vehicle was a Ford. I grew tired of having to take it back because of recalls. I also grew tired of the attitude I shouldn't be peeved because the cost was covered by Ford.

My Subaru was assembled in Indiana with 55% American-made parts. Don't give me the bullshit arguments about the profits going back to former "Axis of Evil" countries. The way the top folks at some of the US automotive companies have crawled into bed with foreign countries make that point moot. Once the American automotive companies begin to realize we're a stronger America when we don't ship these jobs overseas, then I'll consider buying another American car.

Until then, fuck your Hitler and Tojo comments. Keep drinking that Kool-Aid.

[wash_man]

"If every American car buyer only bought American made cars"

NOT GONNA HAPPEN! Get over it already. The imports are here to stay.

[rid0617]

My 2006 Dodge Grand Caravan came off the line in Canada. It is North American made,with many US parts, but built outside of this country. My 2003 Toyota Tacoma came off the line in Kentucky, with many foriegn made parts, but built in the US.

So which one is an import?

Yep, yep me too. Ford Crown Victoria and Mercury Grand Marquis both made in Canada. And they are fantastic cars too. 21 years old and extremely low mileage but still fantastic cars.

[reddog289]

The point I was trying to make with my post is that I myself if I had to purchase a new vehicle I would rather purchase one that was made in the US or Canada as oppossed to one built in China, South Korea, ETC.
Not wanting to compare the Silverado vs Tundra. I get the GM discount, have money saved up on my GM card and still have one relative still working for the General.The Silverado would win over that Toyota. But only if that Chevy was built here.

[reddog289]

My last post on this deal. Wouldn't a American car built in China and a Japanese truck built in America both be called "Oxymorons"

[ejames01]

What profits? And why would it matter?

You are absolutely right...what matters, and what people don't seem to grasp is, where the profits go.

[gnome]

Purpleheart, you had me right up to the your "height of WWII" comment about Henry Ford receiving an award for Mr. Hitler. It is true that it happened, the award was conferred in 1938 in Detroit by the German Consul as part of Henry's 75th birthday celebration.

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagot...Y&pqatl=google

To misstate something so obvious, puts your entire argument into the shadowy world of a fanatic sycophant. To dredge up Henry Ford's misguided early belief that Mr. Hilter was the cats pajamas is to lump him in with millions of other people, not single him out as some neitherworldly denizen with illuminati ties to nuclear belt bomb makers in PolPot's killing fields...therefore that's why Ford didn't take Fed Cash.

Puuleeeze.

FoMoCo didn't take the money because it didn't need to money. that had everything to do with Al Mullay and nothing to do with Hank or his crazy views on jews.

If you have information that contridicts the newspaper article, I'd love to hear it. From the sound of the article GM will become a branding/advertsing company just like Nike. Nike doesn't make anything. It designs shoes and apparel, then markets the stuff. They don't make anything.

[Gannon]

The unspoken true story of this industry downturn is that both Hyundai AND Subaru are enjoying 5-9% growth from last year making solid products that people WANT to buy, selling them through a dealer network NOT designed to abuse and fleece their customers.

Fuck the American Car Companies and their business-as-usual...especially GM for killing the ONLY division that had hopes of achieving a similar reputation, Saturn.

My father has had two of them, and the dealer visits have always been decidedly different than any of my experiences at standard sadistic American dealers.

My sister is on her second Hyndai. My aunt and uncle have now been through two of each as well. Nearly everyone else I know who've bought new in the past three years is happily driving the best value in a motorcar in our marketplace, the Subarus [[and the Saab-badged derivative).


Surely a small sample, but consisting of thinking and feeling real humans, reflecting a trend in the larger marketplace. There are reasons why these firms are toppling...and MOST of them are self-inflicted wounds they ONLY could suffer because of the momentum of their past successes and subsequent excesses. Any other industry would be long-dead and forgotten.

[CountrySquire]

There isn't an assembly plant in Smyrna Georgia.

http://news.taume.com/World-Business...Tennessee-5857

That better? More clear?

[Angry Dad]

What people are not figuring out is the where the products are built is a "result". A result of cash flow out of the country.

Look, any of you would place your cash where ever it gets the best return. Any of you would borrow cash at the lowest rate. Well interest rates and strength of currency aren't equal around the world. And along with that, thanks to Wall Street and Washington, cash flow in the US is not equal across nation.

GM has a massive debt in legacy costs. But in consideration for what they owe, it's not the debt, it's the handling fees for the debt that are out of control. The car business needs a massive amount of capital to operate. Thanks to insane spending by a reckless government, and blatant currency manipulation by Japan and China who were more than willing to lend cash back to the morons in Washington, there is a paltry amount of cash left for investment. And what there is, is being lent out by the current crop of paper tycoons who don't give a shit about "their" country.

What it all boils down to is I don't blame GM entirely for their state. I do place a great deal of blame on a government that will tell you about the evils of protectionism but at the same time allow other countries suck the life out of this country by using protectionist currency trading. And there is no doubt that is exactly what China and Japan have done and will continue to do. When you buy that Kentucky Camry, you are subsidizing that currency trade manipulation. It's not as simple as where the HQ is, it's all about where and how the capital was gathered.

GM is going to other countries. They have to. The government in their home country is incompetent and corrupt. Corrupt in the fact they lost the sense of who they serve.

[Patrick]

Do you honestly believe that Toyota is going to continue building cars here after GM shifts all its manufacturing overseas?

Nope. Many at the transplants are starting to regret building plants in the south. It is simplyt becomiong too expesensive to manufacture in the USA. I bet Toyota and others will increase production and the number of facilities in Mexico in the next 20 tears.

[Buy American]

Gannon said: "Fuck the American Car Companies and their business-as-usual..."

All you have to do is look at today's headlines regarding the auto industry, the articles regarding home foreclosures, how low the price of a home is and you can see exactly where that attitude got us. When the auto companies were going gangbusters, everyone was happy. Times were good. Families bought their toys, vacationed with the kids, had a little bit of savings, their homes were worth more than they paid for it.

Today, plants are shuttered, millions of people are out of work, small businesses are closed because of the ripple effect, homes are in foreclosure in every state, tent cities are not unusual to see and people still want to blame the Big 3.

It's too late for all of us, especially those of us who live in Michigan. We are finished but all of a sudden some of my acquaintances who bought their last Honda or Toyota, now they say they will buy American because THEY are being affected by the economic situation. I say to them and Gannon, I have never said this to anyone on this forum, but on this Mother's Day I say this to you...."FUCK YOU TOO".

I said this yesterday and I will continue to say it until I am dead....

WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA!

[Angry Dad]

Nope. Many at the transplants are starting to regret building plants in the south. It is simplyt becomiong too expesensive to manufacture in the USA. I bet Toyota and others will increase production and the number of facilities in Mexico in the next 20 tears.

They don't regret building the plants. Thanks to our enlightened government, we paid for them. And aren't you thrilled you had no choice in the matter but every single one of the scoundrels that pulled this shill game on you used the campaign slogan "created jobs"?

[Gannon]

Fuck me, indeed.


For telling the truth.


The auto industry...both sides of the labor/management divide...have been getting fatter and less healthy year by year since the late fifties, while the marketplace was rewarding those firms that were leaner and more innovative.


I have always bought the best car for my money. For a brief period of time, I went all-American. I still own the 1995 Ford Windstar with the KNOWN problem 3.8 six. It is still awaiting repairs that I cannot afford. Now when I go into dealers for parts I get active scorn for keeping it so long.



Fuck you, too. Oh wait, idiocy like yours has already fucked us all.

[Buy American]

So you're saying that the American auto companies fucked everyone? Give me a break. Without them there would have been no middle class, which I'm sure you are/were a part of. The auto companies afforded the average person a chance to have something, to enjoy their life instead of going on welfare. Not everyone had the opportunity to go to college so they built the cars that America drove. If you believe that by purchasing a Honda or Toyota it benefitted the U.S. then you can bury your head deeper into the sand than it was before.

Nearly 300,000 Americans work at auto facilities. 3 million others depend on those auto facilities for their own jobs.
$ .80 of every research dollar spent by Ford, Chrysler and GM is invested in the U.S.
Go to
http://www.levelfieldinstitute.org/

to get educated regarding the American Auto Industry.

WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA!

[Angry Dad]

Fuck me, indeed.


For telling the truth.


The auto industry...both sides of the labor/management divide...have been getting fatter and less healthy year by year since the late fifties, while the marketplace was rewarding those firms that were leaner and more innovative.


I have always bought the best car for my money. For a brief period of time, I went all-American. I still own the 1995 Ford Windstar with the KNOWN problem 3.8 six. It is still awaiting repairs that I cannot afford. Now when I go into dealers for parts I get active scorn for keeping it so long.



Fuck you, too. Oh wait, idiocy like yours has already fucked us all.

Telling the truth???

I want no part of your pissing match but you are no telling the truth.

You are making an excuse for telling your neighbors to go to hell.

You are trying to absolve yourself from guilt.

It doesn't work.

No matter what crap you write about your fellow Americans the "truth" is we are and have been screwed over by unfair trade. C'mon, sack up, be "truthful". What is happening now isn't only about the urban myths about "fat" American workers. It's more about how the rest of the world has found out we as a nation are pussies. We won't stand up for the guy down the street. We won't stand up to the guys across the world that are sucking capital out of us. And don't you dare say they aren't. The numbers don't lie. In 1995 Japan was going through the exact same issues with banking that we are now. And we did the we have done the exact same thing they have did. We dropped our prime. We had to. They didn't. We bailed them out and you have no choice in it. It is not a free market. That is another lie. Every market has a cost. Anybody that says otherwise is a fool. They passed cost on to us. You've been duped and you blame your neighbors.

Well Gannon the truth is your fellow Americans aren't bad as you think they are. But you want to put your faith in other countries that blatantly and unremorsefully skew trade with us in their favor. Who's the fool?

[jtf1972]

GM seems to be saying that they are an American company and are too important for the American economy to fail, and to succeed and keep America strong they need to close as much of their American operations as possible & put most of their American workers out of work.

I don't get it. Why should the American taxpayer fund putting Americans out of work?

Why doesn't this American company take the attitude that they will do everything possible to keep as many Americans employed as possible? It would go over a lot better, in my opinion.

[Angry Dad]

Why should the American taxpayer fund putting Americans out of work?

Take a guess who indirectly [[and not very indirectly) has paid for so many of the Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and other off shore producers facilities here?

Nissan got nearly a billion down south for the failed Titan plant. Toyota nearly as much for the disappointing Tundra plants. And these plants aren't even part of the equation for how they have sucked cash out of here. The last CEO of Toyota freely admits that 20% of their profit was generated by currency exchanges. Guess who is paying that?

[393Bird]

With the way the major US companies are shifting jobs overseas to increase profits, who do they think are going to buy there products with all the these workers moving down in pay?