Official Water and Sewage Dept. Control Thread

**Detroitnerd** · February-01-11, 12:45 PM

This trend is just going to continue. We haven't even gotten into the coming commercial real estate crash. When that happens, consumption is going to drop even more. Expect the rhetoric from those who want to "regionalize" the water department to grow only more shrill. In my humble opinion, all they want is a way to transform the department into a system that subsidizes sprawl on the backs of those who live densely.

**Mikeg** · February-01-11, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Do the research yourself. Look at the density of Detroit relative to the suburbs and you will find that the city is still denser. There ya go.

Your argument specifically referred to the density impact caused by foreclosures and half-empty subs - not the average density of Detroit vs. its suburbs. Sections of Detroit has been hit just as hard by foreclosures and others even worse by demolitions, so there ya go!

**Mikeg** · February-01-11, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

This trend is just going to continue. We haven't even gotten into the coming commercial real estate crash. When that happens, consumption is going to drop even more. Expect the rhetoric from those who want to "regionalize" the water department to grow only more shrill. In my humble opinion, all they want is a way to transform the department into a system that subsidizes sprawl on the backs of those who live densely.

Wasn't it the DWSD that subsidized the "sprawl" in the first place? The mayors of Detroit saw an opportunity to extend their control over development patterns in SE MI by regionalizing the DWSD and taking advantage of over-optimistic population forecasts, a once-impeccable bond rating and copious Federal Dollars to build a water system that today is only averaging daily water deliveries that are less than 40% of its maximum water treatment capacity. You can't unring the bell unless you start shrinking the DWSD by canceling water contracts, abandoning transmission mains and/or shuttering a treatment plant or two.

**Detroitnerd** · February-01-11, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by Mikeg

Your argument specifically referred to the density impact caused by foreclosures and half-empty subs - not the average density of Detroit vs. its suburbs. Sections of Detroit has been hit just as hard by foreclosures and others even worse by demolitions, so there ya go!

Yeah, but the foreclosures and half-empty subs are part of the trend as we go forward. On the other hand, Detroit is stabilizing. We still have to wait a bit for the census to come in, but I'd wager that for every two or three poor residents it loses, it gains one who isn't. Expect this trend to continue. And the suburbs? Except for standouts like Novi [[BRAND-NEW! HUGE HOUSES THAT APPEAL TO THE 40-AND-OVER SET! WATER HOGGING LAWNS!), they'll likely be flat or declining.

Perhaps you haven't been to Detroit lately? I don't mean that as a dig [[although I sometimes do), but you're talking about sections of Detroit, but not mentioning the growth in Mexicantown, Southwest, Downtown, Midtown and the area around Hamtramck. These are the areas density will likely grow out from. Is it because you've been watching too much Dateline and not visiting down here enough?

**Detroitnerd** · February-01-11, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Mikeg

Wasn't it the DWSD that subsidized the "sprawl" in the first place?

The subsidies that went to sprawl in the postwar period were many and diverse. The postwar G.I. Bill, the 1953 Housing Act, the later additions to that act, the 1956 Highway Act, the overturn of busing. And Michigan's Constitution's strict "home rule" provisions have forbidden the city from annexing any cities around it. That battle was over by the 1930s, when Detroit had been cut off at all major thoroughfares on all sides. If Detroit had a more favorable Constitution, it may have been able to annex the sprawl, which is what cities in the south and west do. They couldn't. The law was clear on that. And, so, since the development of sprawl was inevitable due to the post-war bonanza of federal funds, they saw an opportunity to at least "leverage their asset" -- the water system.

Originally Posted by Mikeg

The mayors of Detroit saw an opportunity to extend their control over development patterns in SE MI

If Detroit had an opportunity to control development patterns, why didn't they stop sprawl? You can't say that a boxed-in city controlled development patterns when the outcome was sprawl. Nonsense. They just sold the customers what they wanted, like any competent utility.

Originally Posted by Mikeg

by regionalizing the DWSD and taking advantage of over-optimistic population forecasts, a once-impeccable bond rating and copious Federal Dollars to build a water system that today is only averaging daily water deliveries that are less than 40% of its maximum water treatment capacity.

And that is the result of our failure as a region. We imagined, wrongly, that we could build a metropolitan area without a city, and that it would grow and grow until it stretched as far as the eye could see. What a paradise, our city on a hill. Um ... but it didn't work. So here we are. It was a universal dream at the time, so why now use it as an occasion to beat up on Detroit's water department? Unless you're looking for a pretext to take it over ...

Originally Posted by Mikeg

You can't unring the bell unless you start shrinking the DWSD by canceling water contracts, abandoning transmission mains and/or shuttering a treatment plant or two.

Or we can come up with intelligent development plans for the region that involve a thriving central city, attractive inner-ring suburbs, exclusive second-ring suburbs, and a greenbelt/growth boundary. That would do it, and we'd all have to do it together. Instead, I believe this is a last-ditch effort to take over the water department so it rewards sprawl and punishes density.

**Mikeg** · February-01-11, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

.........Or we can come up with intelligent development plans for the region that involve a thriving central city, attractive inner-ring suburbs, exclusive second-ring suburbs, and a greenbelt/growth boundary. That would do it, and we'd all have to do it together. Instead, I believe this is a last-ditch effort to take over the water department so it rewards sprawl and punishes density.

Whatever you're smoking, I'd like a hit. The days of the overbuilt DWSD influencing additional development [[or "sprawl") are over and the density in the city of Detroit is getting punished by plenty of factors unrelated to the operation of the DWSD

The DWSD dodged a $400 million penalty payment in 2009 with the credit swap agreements, in return for putting up the City of Detroit's casino tax proceeds as collateral. They're carrying a $25 million "allowance for doubtful accounts receivable" on their balance sheet, they've had to cancel two major combined sewer overflow projects and are rumored to be on track to incur a $200 million deficit.

If there is any "last-ditch effort to take over the water department", it could be justified on the basis of maintaining public health and safety by preventing the mis-managed DWSD from sliding into insolvency and thus keeping their pumps and treatment processes running so that SE MI has potable water and raw sewage doesn't flow directly into the Detroit River.

**MikeM** · February-03-11, 12:15 PM

Judge dissolves Metro Detroit water consortium

Robert Snell / The Detroit News

Detroit— A federal judge today dismantled a group of business and community leaders tasked with solving regional squabbles between the city and suburban water customers.

U.S. District Judge Sean F. Cox signed an order filed in federal court in Detroit saying the Southeast Michigan Consortium for Water Quality was unneeded. The move — the first notable action taken by Cox since gaining oversight of the Detroit Water and Sewerage Department late last year — comes at a time of heightened tension among city and suburban leaders fighting for control of the scandal-plagued utility...

...The consortium was set up in 2003 by U.S. District Judge John Feikens, who gained broad oversight of the department following a 1977 federal consent judgment that settled a pollution lawsuit.

Feikens quit his job as Metro Detroit's so-called sludge judge last year and the oversight was assigned to Cox.

"After careful review of the file and the current status of this action, the Court concludes that it does not need the assistance of the consortium," Cox wrote. He also said the court does not need the help of business and community leadership groups.

From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20110203/...#ixzz1CuucHSmA

**stasu1213** · February-03-11, 07:19 PM

I say the water should be Detroit owned and Detroit managed. Everyone else just have to buy from Detroiters and let the profits from the water pay for the schools, property taxes, roads, bus operations and rail systems

**eno** · February-03-11, 09:43 PM

Here's an article from Joel Thurtell, former Freep reporter, about how sewage customers in the western suburbs tried to redirect their waste product to an alternative treatment center.

http://joelontheroad.com/?p=4521

**MikeM** · February-04-11, 01:34 PM

Special master overseeing Detroit water department fired

Official monitored contracts for scandal-plagued system

Robert Snell / The Detroit News

Detroit — A federal judge Thursday fired the lawyer who helped oversee the Detroit Water and Sewerage Department during a scandal-plagued period filled with alleged bid-rigging and bribery involving ex-Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick.

Detroit lawyer F. Thomas Lewand was removed as special master by U.S. District Judge Sean Cox, who is making major changes in the oversight of the utility — oversight that failed to detect an alleged contracting scandal during Kilpatrick's tenure. Lewand, father of Detroit Lions president Tom Lewand, was part of a team of consultants paid millions to help oversee and manage the department...

From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20110204/...#ixzz1D14iHCzz

**Detroitnerd** · February-04-11, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by Mikeg

Whatever you're smoking, I'd like a hit. The days of the overbuilt DWSD influencing additional development [[or "sprawl") are over and the density in the city of Detroit is getting punished by plenty of factors unrelated to the operation of the DWSD

Ummm, what the hell are you talking about? You apparently did not read my post, and are simply going to keep tautologically begging the question and pounding your gavel in vain hopes that you can somehow prize Detroit's water system away from it.
You do know whose PR policy that was, yes? It was Hermann Goering's. Nice ...

**EastsideQT** · February-04-11, 01:51 PM

yes he is responsible

**esp1986** · February-04-11, 01:59 PM

While I believe that the city should be given a chance to turn the water department around, I don't think they will be given this opportunity. The only way I think a regional authority should oversee the water system is if they assume the debt that is attached to it. It is total bullshit for the city to own the system, pay on the debt, and hold absolutely no majority on any decision that is made. It is one thing for an authority to assume the assets and liabilities [[and I think we can all at least understand why they want to do it, corruption associated with rate increases), it is another for them to essentially steal the assets free and clear of the debt, simply to be in control of it. At the same time, if a bill passes both chambers in Lansing, I don't see it being signed by Govenor Snyder. Rick has demonstrated a willingness to support and work with Detroit, and I don't think he is going to burn that bridge. Just my two cents.

**MikeM** · February-04-11, 04:24 PM

Judge considers candidates to help oversee Detroit water department

Robert Snell / The Detroit News

Detroit— A federal judge is considering candidates to help him oversee the scandal-plagued Detroit Water and Sewerage Department.

Several names were floated as replacements to fired special master F. Thomas Lewand during private meetings held in chambers today by U.S. District Judge Sean Cox. He is meeting with officials from Detroit, the state and Wayne, Oakland and Macomb counties less than 24 hours after shaking up a team of high-priced consultants who helped oversee the utility.

From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20110204/...#ixzz1D1luv33Q

**Hypestyles** · February-04-11, 04:37 PM

will the city charter revision process possibly settle this issue? probably not, but..

**stasu1213** · February-04-11, 06:31 PM

Everthing that the Kilpatricks had been involved with had turned to shit. Let us not use that lame brain idiot and his father as an scapegoat to turn over the water dept to a regional board. I hope that Mayor Bing fight hard to stop the giving away of the water dept.That if he is not grand standing and back stabbing Detroiters

**MSUguy** · February-12-11, 03:18 AM

Suburban communities will have more say in running the Detroit Water and Sewerage Department, including a required voice on rate increases and big-ticket projects, under a deal announced Friday.
Mayor Dave Bing said Detroit would maintain "ownership, control and management" of the sprawling water system, but a supermajority of five votes on the seven-member Board of Water Commissioners will be required on money matters. Detroit has four members and Wayne, Oakland and Macomb counties will select the other three.

http://www.freep.com/article/2011021...xt|FRONTPAGE|p

Sounds fair to me now can we move on to something else?

**mam2009** · February-12-11, 02:21 PM

There is nothing FAIR about telling the owner of a financially solvent water system that has high quality water and competitive rates that it must have permission from a customer to make financial decisions.

**ja!mz** · February-12-11, 04:32 PM

Its a about time....huge victory for the 'burbs

**Fnemecek** · February-12-11, 04:50 PM

Just wondering: how many votes will Detroiters get on the Oakland & Macomb County Commissions? Presumably, we'll also get veto power over their spending as well.

**Fnemecek** · February-12-11, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by MSUguy

http://www.freep.com/article/2011021...xt|FRONTPAGE|p

Sounds fair to me now can we move on to something else?

You have a very peculiar definition of the word "fair".

**Zacha341** · February-12-11, 04:57 PM

Ick, is that coming soon? I've been in denial... Makes sense that it would be on the heels of private real estate! More abandoned scrap BUILDINGS along with homes...[QUOTE=Detroitnerd;219906]...We haven't even gotten into the coming commercial real estate crash. When that happens, consumption is going to drop even more.

**Zacha341** · February-12-11, 04:59 PM

I suspect "grand standing and back stabbing Detroiters"... in the picture when it comes to Bing.

Originally Posted by stasu1213

Everthing that the Kilpatricks had been involved with had turned to shit. Let us not use that lame brain idiot and his father as an scapegoat to turn over the water dept to a regional board. I hope that Mayor Bing fight hard to stop the giving away of the water dept.That if he is not grand standing and back stabbing Detroiters

**Hypestyles** · February-12-11, 09:16 PM

... with the recent announcement.. now what? will brooks and company shut up, at least for a while? detroit retains ownership/management and four out of seven board members, so will the detroit-ownership hardliners focus on something else for once?

**mam2009** · February-12-11, 09:27 PM

Collaboration with county leadership does not require a super majority vote. This is truly outrageous and if this is a satisfactory compromise to Mayor Bing, then he should be immediately recalled. The mayor of a city should NEVER seriously consider voluntarily ceding control of a financially solvent enterprise agency. There are so many substantive legal and practical arguments that can be made on the City's behalf. For him to give in -- and to give in so easily -- means that he is not seeing things as a leader with his constituency's best interest at heart. There are numerous instances throughout DWSD's history where all three county's have sued DWSD for some reason or another. Our interests are not always aligned. It makes absolutely no sense to require a super majority for capital expenses and rates - NONE.

I am most definitely for tri-county and regional collaboration and cooperation, but this goes far beyond both.