Official Water and Sewage Dept. Control Thread

[MikeM]

They're already subject to oversight by the EPA, the MDEQ & a federal district court judge. What else do people want? The system works! Those who were arrogant & ignorant enough to believe they could beat the system are being held accountable and the water is still clean & the prices are still competitive.

Those agencies don't approve rate hikes. Look at all the evidence and testimony provided to the MPSC at a rate hearing case for other utilities. Not so the DWSD.

[mam2009]

Reminds me of another asinine statement - Janet Napolitano, on the underwear bomber's attempt to explode the bomb he brought aboard Flight 253 : 'The System Worked!'

No need to insult my statement. Let's just stick to debating the merits [[or lack thereof) of customers asking the Legislature to allow them to take over the grocery store just because they buy their apples and oranges there.

[Mikeg]

Let's just stick to debating the merits [[or lack thereof) of customers asking the Legislature to allow them to take over the grocery store just because they buy their apples and oranges there.

Mam2009,

Who are you to come in here and try to narrowly redefine the subject of this thread?

Anyone who tries to argue that the DWSD is working just fine needs come up with some evidence to support that contention. Nobody's going to just take your word on it and writing "End of story" doesn't make it so.

You stated, "What else do people want? The system works!"

Since you asked, I'll give you four things that haven't been working right and which the people of Detroit and the surrounding suburbs should all demand that they be immediately and permanently corrected. How about a DWSD that:

- has its financial house in order so they don't need the City of Detroit to put up it's casino tax revenues as collateral to guarantee that they don't default on their financial agreements?

- can operate its wastewater treatment plant without being out of regulatory compliance with the Federal Clean Water Act for 12 of the last 12 quarters? Thus far, it's only been under Federal oversight for 33 years.......

- isn't run to provide capital improvements for other City of Detroit departments or to purchase land from the City of Detroit at triple the market rate?

- isn't run for the personal benefit of Detroit's mayor and city council members?

Your turn - convince us that "the system works".

[7miledog]

Mikem, Two points:1) the mpscdoes not regulate any municipal utility rates, even municipal electric rates, and 2) it is not uncommon orimproper for a municipal enterprise department [[ie, a revenue generator) to pay adividend to a city general fund, even if there are customers of that department outside of the municipality.

[mam2009]

http://www.wqpmag.com/Detroit-Water-...NewsPiece17271

Below is an exceprt from the article sited above Detroit Water Compromise Reached from December 2008...

Feikens said he had long told the stakeholders their problems could be resolved only through cooperation, not litigation or legislation, the paper reported. "I'm heartened and pleased that all of you have proven me right," Feikens said. "I know this was a long road, but it was worth it."

But the key point of the agreement, said Detroit attorney Thomas Lewand, Feikens' special master over the case, is the creation of a five-member directors council designed to resolve disagreements before they escalate into the type of protracted litigation that has plagued the system in the past.
Lewand called it a "framework for peace in this region for the next 30 years," the paper reported.

The council would include an official from the governments of Detroit and Macomb, Oakland and Wayne counties, along with a fifth member chosen by those four.

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency sued the city in 1977 to stop pollution of the Detroit River. Since then, the newspaper said, Feikens has been “de facto czar of the Detroit system.”
Officials from the suburbs have accused the city of gouging them on water rates over the years, while officials in Detroit have accused suburban officials of trying to hijack the city’s water and sewer system.

The agreement gives the suburbs a "seat at the table," Oakland County Water Resources Commissioner John McCulloch said. In the past, the only official voice the suburbs had was their minority representation on the Detroit water board, but even those members were chosen by Detroit’s mayor.

"I don't think it's necessarily the end-all, but I think it's a step in the right direction in terms of trying to work cooperatively in the region," McCulloch said.

My question is this: Why does working cooperatively in the region mean that the suburbs have to take contol of DWSD? Why aren't input and access to information enough?

[mam2009]

Oh boy...

http://m.freep.com/detail.jsp?key=823059&rc=lo&full=1

[MikeM]

http://www.detnews.com/article/20110...et-water-rates

A state lawmaker has thrown a wrinkle into oversight of the Detroit Water and Sewerage Department, calling for the state's Public Service Commission to set water rates.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...1-SIB-0087.htm

THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF MICHIGAN ENACT:

Sec. 6. [[1) The public service commission is vested with complete power and jurisdiction to regulate all public utilities in the state except a municipally owned electric or natural gas utility, the owner of a renewable resource power production facility as provided in section 6d, and except as otherwise restricted by law. The public service commission is vested with the power and jurisdiction to regulate all rates, fares, fees, charges, services, rules, conditions of service, and all other matters pertaining to the formation, operation, or direction of public utilities. The public service commission is further granted the power and jurisdiction to hear and pass upon all matters pertaining to, necessary, or incident to the regulation of public utilities, including electric light and power companies, whether private, corporate, or cooperative; water, including municipally owned water and sewer systems; telegraph, oil, gas, and pipeline companies; motor carriers; private wastewater treatment facilities; and all public transportation and communication agencies other than railroads and railroad companies.

[[2) A private, investor-owned wastewater utility may apply to the commission for rate regulation. If an application is filed under this subsection, the commission is vested with the specific grant of jurisdictional authority to regulate the rates, fares, fees, and charges of private, investor-owned wastewater utilities.

As used in this subsection, "private, investor-owned wastewater utilities" means a utility that delivers wastewater treatment services through a sewage system and the physical assets of which are wholly owned by an individual or group of individual shareholders.

Sec. 6t. The public service commission is vested with the power and jurisdiction to regulate all rates, fares, fees, and charges of any water or sewerage system that provides water supply service or sewerage service, or both, to more than 25% of the population of this state.

[mwilbert]

The state holds all the cards. They have a huge amount of leverage over the city, and can make the rules. If governor and legislature agree that there should be a change in how the water department is controlled, it will happen. Best case maybe the city could force some compensation, but the state could offset that from aid if they really felt like it.

In America, cities are creatures of the states, and essentially don't have any existence except what is granted by the state. A city can wage a political fight, but it is in a very poor position in a legal one if the the state is determined.

[Novine]

Cities are creatures of the state but Detroit has the State Constitution on its side. Neither the Governor or the Legislature can ride roughshod over the Constitution.

[mwilbert]

They don't have to run roughshod over it. If they want to change the status of the water system, they can just work around it. The state has many things the city needs and can use those to force agreement, as long as the Governor and Legislature are on the same page. I don't see how the State Constitution offers any protection from that, as they aren't going to want to dissolve the City of Detroit to get the water system.

[Novine]

Nobody at the state level or in Oakland County actually wants to give Detroit anything for the system. What makes you think they're going to offer Detroit anything?

[Detroitnerd]

For the time being, it is amusing to watch this play out.

The complaints about the water system have really ramped up since the rates rose.

But why did the rates rise? Declining consumption. Fixed costs.

Then, when you raise the rates, people use less water. Again, the costs remain fixed, and so rates are bound to rise again.

While the suburban governments were building "growth" [[isn't that what L. Brooks called it?) the rising consumption hid the problem. Now, however, it is clear it is increasingly expensive to pump water father and farther out to where fewer people live. And so costs rise, people use less of it, contributing further to the problem, or move somewhere they can get it more cheaply.

Here's where the amusement comes in: For years, we've had to listen to a whole lot of people in prosperous suburbs with their free market fundamentalism. "The invisible hand of the market" tells us what to do. Who are we to question the wisdom of market forces?

But, you'll notice now that all of a sudden, the suburban people who want to take over the water system have forgotten entirely about market forces. The free market says, for some odd reason, that it's more expensive to pump water out to places where homes are vacant? Where it's not dense? All of a sudden the market forces are going to force people in the suburbs to face rising costs? Outrageous! As we all know, the "invisible hand" of the market is only supposed to bitch-slap the poor! Not us! There must be some other reason!!! We need to get our hands on that system to find a way to fine-tune it so the people who want to live out in the middle of nowhere don't have to pay the cost of pumping water way out there!

All of a sudden, ideas of ownership, private property, market fundamentalism -- all are pitched out the window -- and instead we have angry suburban leaders talking about Detroit being an enemy of REGIONALISM! My amusement runneth over...

[mwilbert]

Nobody at the state level or in Oakland County actually wants to give Detroit anything for the system. What makes you think they're going to offer Detroit anything?

Nothing. I think what they will try to do is get control while leaving nominal ownership in Detroit's hands, and avoid compensation. But If that doesn't work, and they care enough, they will either just seize it and negotiate the payment later, or they will exert pressure on the city to cede control, possibly including some kind of compensation as a sweetener. My point is that if the state government is determined to do it, it will succeed, and Detroit's negotiating position is horrible because of the historic mismanagement of the water system and the financial dependence of the city on the state.

The legislature with a supportive governor has almost unlimited capability to cause Detroit pain; it is only a question of whether they feel motivated to use it on this issue, and whether they feel it is politically risky. I doubt the latter, and have no opinion on the former. It is entirely possible that this is a good issue for suburban politicians to bloviate about, but that it isn't important to anyone else.

[stasu1213]

Many suburbanites and those who lives in the rural area have to understand that Detroit charge a reasonable rate to pump water to these areas. The water departments in these areas who recieves and distributes the water are the ones who are adding the extra charges. Fresh water is as precious as anything else. Detroit sits on top of it. Residents of the city of Detroit should benefit from the fresh water. No one else. Residents of Detroit should recieve the lowest of rates throughout the whole state. Detroiters should recieve some type of suppliment if the Detroit River is used for a highway for cargo and possible small cruise ships.

[Mikeg]

Many suburbanites and those who lives in the rural area have to understand that Detroit charge a reasonable rate to pump water to these areas. The water departments in these areas who recieves and distributes the water are the ones who are adding the extra charges. Fresh water is as precious as anything else. Detroit sits on top of it. Residents of the city of Detroit should benefit from the fresh water. No one else. Residents of Detroit should recieve the lowest of rates throughout the whole state. Detroiters should recieve some type of suppliment if the Detroit River is used for a highway for cargo and possible small cruise ships.

Balderdash!

Fresh water is a renewable, recyclable resource and around here it is a commodity. Even if you meant to write "treated fresh water is as precious....", that is still not true. The Detroit Water and Sewage system has excess fresh water treatment capacity thanks to the overbuilding they did in the 1970s.

Due to that overbuilding, Detroit now takes the majority of its water from Lake Huron, not the Detroit River.

The IJC [[not Detroit) authorizes the use of Great Lakes water for things like municipal waterworks, wastewater dumping and lakes carriers.

Why should Detroit receive the lowest rates in the state? The Detroit Water and Sewage System only serves communities in SE Michigan.

If your contention is that Detroit residents should receive the lowest rates of any municipality that receives DWSD water, I might agree with you on the portion paid for the treated water that flows in the mains within the city, but not for the extra charges the City of Detroit tacks onto their resident's water bills to maintain their distribution system within the city limits.

[stasu1213]

Okay, the southeastern region of Michigan. However, residence of the city of Detroit should be charged the lowest rates since the Wate and Sewage Department is in Detroit where the purification is taking place. It had been said that the citizens of Alaska benefit from the oil so should the residents of Detroit benefit from the water

[Mikeg]

Okay, the southeastern region of Michigan. However, residence of the city of Detroit should be charged the lowest rates since the Wate and Sewage Department is in Detroit where the purification is taking place. It had been said that the citizens of Alaska benefit from the oil so should the residents of Detroit benefit from the water

More balderdash!

Most of the water consumed throughout the DWSD service area [map] has been treated at the DWSD Lake Huron water treatment plant which is located 90 miles northeast of downtown Detroit and can supply two-thirds of the average daily consumption. So this notion that all water sold to suburban customers should automatically cost more just because it must be sent farther distances simply isn't true.

The DWSD owns 3,400 miles of water transmission and distribution mains within the city of Detroit that are used to deliver water to Detroit residents and businesses. They have another 400 miles of large diameter transmission mains located outside the city limits that are used to transport treated water to their various municipal customers [source]. How can you expect the retail customers within the city of Detroit to have the lowest rates when they have by far the largest [[and oldest) share of the water mains that need to be maintained?

[Detroitnerd]

It isn't distance. It's density. When you have foreclosed homes and half-finished subs dotting Macomb and Oakland counties, it is more expensive to maintain fixed infrastructure for a population that is flat or declining.

[MikeM]

Which is less dense, Detroit or Sterling Heights? And none of the water mains in my community are owned and maintained by Detroit. Detroit delivers the water to the city line and from there it's all locally owned and maintained.

[Mikeg]

It isn't distance. It's density. When you have foreclosed homes and half-finished subs dotting Macomb and Oakland counties, it is more expensive to maintain fixed infrastructure for a population that is flat or declining.

Are you trying to say that all water sold to suburban customers should automatically cost more just because they have a lot of foreclosed homes and half-finished subs? If so, maybe we have a different interpretation of what "suburban customers" means.

I use the term to describe the suburban municipalities that purchase treated water from the DWSD. Their cost is the rate charged them by the DWSD for each unit of water delivered to the municipality's meter pit which connects their water distribution system to the DWSD's transmission main. The DWSD's rate has nothing to do with any costs or inefficiencies incurred on the municipality's distribution side of the meter pit.

The suburban municipality's distribution system maintenance costs and inefficiencies are recovered by the "marked-up" portion of the rate they charge their retail customers. From all appearances, Detroit retail customers pay for their distribution system maintenance costs and inefficiencies through the flat $11 monthly service charge.

Surely, you are not arguing that the "density" inefficiencies in distributing water to retail customers in suburbia is worse than in the city of Detroit?

[Detroitnerd]

Detroit's density: 6,370.1/sq mi
Sterling Heights' density: 3,397.0/sq mi

[Detroitnerd]

Surely, you are not arguing that the "density" inefficiencies in distributing water to retail customers in suburbia is worse than in the city of Detroit?

Do the research yourself. Look at the density of Detroit relative to the suburbs and you will find that the city is still denser. There ya go.

[SWMAP]

How high is Sterling Heights as compared to Detroit? Water does not naturally flow upward, so activities to pump water to higher elevations than Detroit [[low) will cost more to get it to certain city lines.

[MikeM]

Ta-da!

http://www.freep.com/article/2011020...sey=nav%7Chead

Water rates will rise 9.3% for Detroiters and 8.9% for the average wholesale suburban community under new rates proposed by the Detroit Water and Sewerage Department.

The increases are largely driven by decreasing water sales, said consultant Bart Foster.

[Mikeg]

How high is Sterling Heights as compared to Detroit? Water does not naturally flow upward, so activities to pump water to higher elevations than Detroit [[low) will cost more to get it to certain city lines.

It doesn't matter what their difference in elevation is. What is important is the difference in elevation between the water source [[Lake Huron ~ 580 ft. above sea level) and the highest point along the transmission mains [[approx. 800 ft. above sea level at various points in Lapeer County and western Oakland County) between the source and the user. Residents in Sterling Hts and Detroit both require their Lake Huron water to get pumped to the same height before it arrives at their faucet. The Lake Huron water plant can provide two-thirds of the total average daily use of all DWSD water customers.