Detroit To Potentially Lose Stance As 2nd Largest Midwest City

[Detroit500]

Why would the suburbs want to become part of a metropolitan government? Particularly any of them north of Ferndale.

[eastjohn]

Why would the suburbs want to become part of a metropolitan government? Particularly any of them north of Ferndale.

Well... because if we dont the cancer will only spread. Look at the water department. If people dont mind paying more for water and sewage then so be it.Wheither we like it or not, the suburbs cannot run from Detroit, nor can Detroit lock out the suburbs.Mayor Fouts recently suggested joint patrols of 8 mile. This might be the first step in the suburbs going into Detroit to drain the swamp.

[LeannaM]

It matters about as much as Columbus being Ohio's largest city.

It's all a matter of how you draw boundaries... and annexation. Indianapolis [[800,000) and Columbus [[770,000) are large mostly because of annexation. Indianapolis has annexed itself to over 372 sq. miles [[compared to 139 for Detroit). It takes up over 90% of the county where it is located.

Columbus is a good analogy... it is now Ohio's largest city, but 3rd largest metro area.

Does this matter? Probably to people who like statistics....

It matters in some ways, but I think metro is more important than city.

But obviously if most of the population is in the suburbs, the city probably will suffer financially from it. That, and perception of the city will probably suffer.

Statistics don't matter so much, but boundaries do.

[BrushStart]

This might be the first step in the suburbs going into Detroit to drain the swamp.

Where does that saying "drain the swamp" come from? I hear it everywhere and I friggen hate it. Sounds like something Crocodile Dundee would say. I have subconsciously started to discredit anyone who says it.

[canuck]

BrushStart Where does that saying "drain the swamp" come from? I hear it everywhere and I friggen hate it. Sounds like something Crocodile Dundee would say. I have subconsciously started to discredit anyone who says it.

May I respectfully, as a non-detroiter second the motion?

[R8RBOB]

Well... because if we dont the cancer will only spread. Look at the water department. If people dont mind paying more for water and sewage then so be it.Wheither we like it or not, the suburbs cannot run from Detroit, nor can Detroit lock out the suburbs.Mayor Fouts recently suggested joint patrols of 8 mile. This might be the first step in the suburbs going into Detroit to drain the swamp.

Not to start a flaming war with the suburbs on their residents but what does any suburban community eligible to come "in" to Detroit to drain the swamp when each and every city is swimming in red ink? Before they can drain the Detroit swamp, they need to drain their own sewage.

[rencense]

Seriously, I can not believe we're still harping about grocery stores so much. First of all the claim that there are no national chain stores is bs. I can think of two off the bat, Aldi's has two stores in the city limit [[three if you count woodward in HP) another one is save a lot which is no whole foods but is indeed a national chain which i counted 8 locations in detroit/hp on the first page of the store locator. I know spartan isn't technically a chain but there are a bunch of them [[which admittedly are pretty hit or miss for quality)

In SW detroit you have honeybee, price valley, ryans, and a a few others [[I myself used to drive all the way from ypsi to shop at honeybee passing probably thirty krogers on the way) I also suggest metro foodland on grand river in rosedale park and mikes market on gratiot and a second one on livernois in NW detroit. This certainly isnt a complete list but a start.

I'm a little tired of detroit being compared to the suburbs in terms of proximity to grocery stores. I can tell you from experience that in my last suburb it was about a 10-15 minute drive to a good grocery store or kroger by car. For those in detroit who have a car I'm pretty sure anyone could be to a decent store within 15 minutes whether in or out of the city limits. For the sake of argument those without access to a car would be screwed even in some of our leafiest suburbs [[How far of a walk would a grocery store be to people in w. bloomfield or farmington hills?)

Look I'm not saying we're the grocery capitol of the US and there are many crappy stores in the city but its about item sixty on our list of pressing concerns. The lack of more national chains is more of a symptom of larger problems. If a kroger opened up on every second block in the city the pressing issues would remain.

The attitude of this region is what will kill it. I'm a 25 year old recent engineering graduate who dreams of buying a house in detroit and doing my part to build community and make this a livable city. Theres this sense of being stuck in the 70's 80's in attitude. The longer people in the suburbs ignore the city the more people will leave. As optimistic as I am for the citys future There may be a point where I can't take the negativity anymore. I'm not certain of the answer yet but I do know that if the time comes that I can't handle the city I won't be moving to southfield or troy but most likely far away in another state that understands the value of a city.

[Al Publican]

I hear Indy is a good town. Is it fiscally sound?

[princealbert]

Seriously, I can not believe we're still harping about grocery stores so much. First of all the claim that there are no national chain stores is bs. I can think of two off the bat, Aldi's has two stores in the city limit [[three if you count woodward in HP) another one is save a lot which is no whole foods but is indeed a national chain which i counted 8 locations in detroit/hp on the first page of the store locator. I know spartan isn't technically a chain but there are a bunch of them [[which admittedly are pretty hit or miss for quality)

In SW detroit you have honeybee, price valley, ryans, and a a few others [[I myself used to drive all the way from ypsi to shop at honeybee passing probably thirty krogers on the way) I also suggest metro foodland on grand river in rosedale park and mikes market on gratiot and a second one on livernois in NW detroit. This certainly isnt a complete list but a start.

I'm a little tired of detroit being compared to the suburbs in terms of proximity to grocery stores. I can tell you from experience that in my last suburb it was about a 10-15 minute drive to a good grocery store or kroger by car. For those in detroit who have a car I'm pretty sure anyone could be to a decent store within 15 minutes whether in or out of the city limits. For the sake of argument those without access to a car would be screwed even in some of our leafiest suburbs [[How far of a walk would a grocery store be to people in w. bloomfield or farmington hills?)

Look I'm not saying we're the grocery capitol of the US and there are many crappy stores in the city but its about item sixty on our list of pressing concerns. The lack of more national chains is more of a symptom of larger problems. If a kroger opened up on every second block in the city the pressing issues would remain.

The attitude of this region is what will kill it. I'm a 25 year old recent engineering graduate who dreams of buying a house in detroit and doing my part to build community and make this a livable city. Theres this sense of being stuck in the 70's 80's in attitude. The longer people in the suburbs ignore the city the more people will leave. As optimistic as I am for the citys future There may be a point where I can't take the negativity anymore. I'm not certain of the answer yet but I do know that if the time comes that I can't handle the city I won't be moving to southfield or troy but most likely far away in another state that understands the value of a city.

Great list of grocery stores in the city! I agree whole-heartedly that opening chain groceries in the city should be a low priority. In fact, a lot of neighborhoods in other cities would prefer NOT to have chain stores, if favor of local mom-and-pops. Last time I was in New Orleans, local activists and businesses were pushing to keep Starbucks out of the Garden District to preserve the character and appeal of the neighborhood. When a Walmart opens on the old Tiger Stadium site, that would really improve Corktown, right? I bet there would be plenty of opposition.

[eastjohn]

Seriously, I can not believe we're still harping about grocery stores so much. First of all the claim that there are no national chain stores is bs. I can think of two off the bat, Aldi's has two stores in the city limit [[three if you count woodward in HP) another one is save a lot which is no whole foods but is indeed a national chain which i counted 8 locations in detroit/hp on the first page of the store locator. I know spartan isn't technically a chain but there are a bunch of them [[which admittedly are pretty hit or miss for quality)

In SW detroit you have honeybee, price valley, ryans, and a a few others [[I myself used to drive all the way from ypsi to shop at honeybee passing probably thirty krogers on the way) I also suggest metro foodland on grand river in rosedale park and mikes market on gratiot and a second one on livernois in NW detroit. This certainly isnt a complete list but a start.

I'm a little tired of detroit being compared to the suburbs in terms of proximity to grocery stores. I can tell you from experience that in my last suburb it was about a 10-15 minute drive to a good grocery store or kroger by car. For those in detroit who have a car I'm pretty sure anyone could be to a decent store within 15 minutes whether in or out of the city limits. For the sake of argument those without access to a car would be screwed even in some of our leafiest suburbs [[How far of a walk would a grocery store be to people in w. bloomfield or farmington hills?)

Look I'm not saying we're the grocery capitol of the US and there are many crappy stores in the city but its about item sixty on our list of pressing concerns. The lack of more national chains is more of a symptom of larger problems. If a kroger opened up on every second block in the city the pressing issues would remain.

The attitude of this region is what will kill it. I'm a 25 year old recent engineering graduate who dreams of buying a house in detroit and doing my part to build community and make this a livable city. Theres this sense of being stuck in the 70's 80's in attitude. The longer people in the suburbs ignore the city the more people will leave. As optimistic as I am for the citys future There may be a point where I can't take the negativity anymore. I'm not certain of the answer yet but I do know that if the time comes that I can't handle the city I won't be moving to southfield or troy but most likely far away in another state that understands the value of a city.

You and your buddys should buy homes in Detroit. Brightmoor cant give away houses... many free houses on Robinwood as well.The city is dead. Young, free spirited people have tried for decades to rebuild Detroit. The end result, robbed, raped and pillaged. If Detroit offered true value, the Chinese and Indians would have bought up the city by now. The truth is, even in India the name Detroit means death.

[Detroitnerd]

if the time comes that I can't handle the city I won't be moving to southfield or troy but most likely far away in another state that understands the value of a city.

And there you have it. Great post.

[rencense]

You and your buddys should buy homes in Detroit. Brightmoor cant give away houses... many free houses on Robinwood as well.The city is dead. Young, free spirited people have tried for decades to rebuild Detroit. The end result, robbed, raped and pillaged. If Detroit offered true value, the Chinese and Indians would have bought up the city by now. The truth is, even in India the name Detroit means death.

I might be rightfully accused of being a little too optimistic about the city but I'm also not a total idiot. I myself agree with the assessment that while Detroit can be a viable city as a whole not every part of it can be saved. I'm also very familiar with certain parts of the city being used as examples. I've been down that stretch of robinwood [[even took a friend just because it's so surreal) I've been all over brightmoor, the southeast side, etc and would not buy a house in many areas even if someone paid me to.

On the other hand there are many parts of town that range from salvageable to very nice at prices we've never seen before. Sure making a bet on a detroit neighborhood recovering is definitely risky. In my mind, however, its also pretty risky to get stuck in a 30 year mortgage expecting that my suburban home will appreciate in value while our metro area continues to shrink while areas with an urban core grow and prosper.

I respect that many people [[especially those a generation older than myself) think that detroit will continue to get worse forever; after all that's the only general trend we've ever seen. I'm encouraged by all the recent developments and organizations in detroit. If our metro area has any chance of recovering we cannot keep losing our graduates and 20-30 year group; the baby boom generation is starting to retire and I fear our region will continue to shrink. Of all the people I know between about 20 and 30 most have little interest in the sprawl that makes up such a high percentage of our area.

massive sprawl and cul-de-sacs may have been the hot thing in the past but most younger people feel isolated that way. Areas like royal oak, bham, ferndale etc have become so popular in large part because they offer a small taste of urban living [[and areas around their downtowns are quickly becoming too expensive for many.) Even among those recent graduates who are still in the area are often only here because either they have to live with their parents or are reluctant to move far from family and friends. It's become pretty obvious to me which areas in the country are successful and why. If we continue to ignore what people demand [[a viable urban core, transit, etc) we will probably continue to lose people [[and in turn potential new employers)

[rencense]

And i almost forgot: Merry Christmas everyone!

Hope everyone has a happy and safe holiday season

[Orthophonic]

A few comments on Indianapolis. I live and work there now but visit Detroit on the weekends. It is in many ways a smaller version of Detroit. There is a lot of nice old architecture, a fair bit of urban decay and crime and expanding burbs. One main difference is that the city and county incorporated into one entity sometime in the early 1970s, I believe. Police, city government, public library are all city/countywide [[with the exception of a few of the suburbs/townships which evidently voted not to jointly incorporate and maintain their old identities). So think Wayne County as one big city. Fire departments and school systems retain their pre-merger identities. So the area I live in, although having an Indianapolis mailing address and Indy police coverage, is in the Washington Township school district. Indianapolis Public School district is as infamous locally as DPS is here. There are signifcant suburbs on the north and south - seems to be more weighted toward the north, but not with the huge population of the Detroit suburbs as compared with the central city. One big difference is that the level of urban decay has not reached the levels I see in so manhy areas of Detroit. I have by no means been in every part of Indy, but the most blighted residential areas I have seen to date are similar to the worn down fringes of Morningside. A big local difference in the populace is the general attitude - there is not a significant city/suburban split with the accompanying toxic animosity which I see all over around here. It would be seen as very counterproductive and just plain odd for people to be rooting against the city [[e.g., the way the Kwame Kilpatrick mayoral disaster, just to name one thing, is used as an excuse by a lot of people to continue disliking and avoiding Detroit). People patronize Indianapolis city establishments although there are neighborhoods that some people won't go in. Downtown is in pretty good economic shape with a lot of foot traffic. Panhandlers are on every corner downtown. Meridian St. is the equivalent of Woodward Ave. - a trip north up Meridian from downtown passes lots of nice houses, apartment buildings [[nice old brick ones in the inner city), some not kept up so nicely, but no gaps or burned out areas. There are a number of univeristites in the city, including IUPUI, University of Indianapolis, Butler and a number of vocational/technical colleges. When the locals talk about Indianapolis as a metropolitan area they call it Indianapolis [[or Indy) rather than "Central Indiana" the way a lot of people who don't want to associate themselves with Detroit talk about "Southeast Michigan" [[by the way, it's still East Detroit to me, never Eastpointe!)

But Indianapolis as a metropolitan area is just not in the same league as Detroit. It's a decent city, maybe a little boring at times, but still with a lot going on. The traffic jams are nothing compared with the ones in and around Detroit, and it's possible to get from one end of the metro area to the other in about 30 minutes or so. Scale of economic activity is pretty high but not on the scale of Detroit. The locals have more of an "us" rather than "us vs them" mindset - this to me is the big advantage Indianapolis has. Maybe "us vs them" is not the right way to characterize metropolitan Detroit. But there are a lot of folks around who either actively trash Detroit or, maybe worse, just don't have Detroit on their radar for anything which is part of their lives - they see [[don't see?) anything south of 8 Mile and east of Telegraph as just a blank no man's land.

[BrushStart]

The locals have more of an "us" rather than "us vs them" mindset - this to me is the big advantage Indianapolis has. Maybe "us vs them" is not the right way to characterize metropolitan Detroit. But there are a lot of folks around who either actively trash Detroit or, maybe worse, just don't have Detroit on their radar for anything which is part of their lives - they see [[don't see?) anything south of 8 Mile and east of Telegraph as just a blank no man's land.

This is killing us. Detroit could be one of the most glorious, powerful, vibrant, and desirable cities in North America, but so many people want none of it. They hate Detroit, and so that's the way it is. Now, we all sink.

[rooms222]

This is killing us. Detroit could be one of the most glorious, powerful, vibrant, and desirable cities in North America, but so many people want none of it. They hate Detroit, and so that's the way it is. Now, we all sink.

As someone who grew up in Indianapolis, I think the biggest question [[impediment?) to the Unigov system is: are the citizens of Detroit willing to have the suburbs have the balance of power in picking the Mayor and the majority of city council which would govern the entire region? That has been the practical effect of Unigov- it bought 40 years of much less deterioration. This may be becoming less effective, as much of the growth is now beyond the Marion County line in Indianapolis.

In the Unigov structure, people kept police, fire and schools local. The predominately Republican mayors kept the regional tax structure as low as possible, but were more liberal than typical Republicans of the time. That is the secondary question: if given the balance of power for the regional structure, are suburbanites willing to pay a higher tax burden, if they believe it can be kept under reasonable control?

We would really be moving into that "post-racial" environment if Unigov was successfully adopted here......

[NorthEndere]

I need some help. Someone said that Michigan was "way off" it's Census estimates. If you take the loss rate from 2008-2009 [[-0.3%) and apply it to 2009-2010 you'd get a population of 9,937,075 for a 2010 estimate. The actual count for 2010 was 9,883,640. That's a difference of only 53,435 or a nearly statistically insignfiicant 0.5%. No, the Census estimates weren't wildly off. If you want to see some grossly off estimates, look at what they predicted for states like Georgia and Arizona.

I don't know what they'll ultimately have for the population of Metro Detroit; the population loss appears to be uneven, so it's going to be hard to predict what the count will be overall. What I do know is that the Census actually wasn't all that off with their estimates at the state level.

BTW, the loss over the decade surprised me as given all of the media doomsday reporting, you'd thought the loss would have been much larger than 3/5 of 1 percent [[54,804). If people are thinking Detroit's fallen under 700,000 people - which would be a loss of over 250,000 people over one decade, or 26% of the population, a loss that top the 1970's rate of loss of 21% - than some other part[[s) of the state would have to show some pretty ridiculous gross to account for a loss of only about 55,000 on net for the state of Michigan.