[[Why not) Kick out the jams, motherfuckers!

[cycledetroit]

It wasn't formulaic and cliche when they were doing it. It is now because of everybody who came after and copied it. That's called being influential, and the MC5 were hugely influential to the garage/punk rock scene. People want to point to New York and London when discussing punk rock's roots, but Detroit's MC5 shouldn't be excluded from the conversation.

This.

My mother was a fan of the MC5 and saw them many times. She was at the free John Sinclair freedom rally. Later in life , [[when i was born) she lived in Berkley where i grew up with Rob Tyners daughter. I naturally became a "punk" kid or whatever. my moms favorite band was influential to many of my favorite bands. this is why i love music. people think they are always cutting edge, really they are just doing the same shit for a different generation - and its still good. When i lived in LA , the MC5 was played all the time in the punk bars there. They are very important to music history.

[blackmath]

I just find this weird hero worship a bit much, acting as if these guys were some kind of cultural icons. The whole shock value aspect of it is silly. Just some kids succeeding at getting a rise out of yelling the word motherfucker at a dance. .
I listen to people argue about which rock band was better and it reminds me of my kids when they were little arguing whether the hulk could kick superman's ass or whatever.

There's people arguing in this thread? While I do share your loathing for hero worship I must respectfully disagree and say this band did a lot more than yell "motherfucker" in a high school gym. If you want to simplify it like that you could say that Joe Dimaggio hit a leather ball with a stick on a dirt patch in a sandlot.

They, to me, and to a lot of other people were the embodiment of Detroit rock and roll on steroids. No one like them came before them, and many have copied them since. When they began they were a no frills, no bullshit rock and roll band in an era of long meandering guitar solos and rock star posturing. This band bullied other groups who didn't give their all at in their performance the Grande Ballroom - most notably Cream, who called them "disruptive".

Unfortunately they became the subject of police scrutiny due to their association with John Sinclair [[who I personally respect as a writer but not a rock band manager) and the politics surrounding them got the best of their music. In the end they were not as musically complex or studied as any of the Motown acts, and they didn't have any of the longevity of Iggy Pop, Bob Seger, Alice Cooper or Ted Nugent, but for a time they were the most rebellious thing out there and they were totally ahead of their time - misunderstood and hated in their own time but appreciated by future generations.

Perhaps there is something to be said about learning a few chords and just making noise for the sheer joy of it. It's not pretty, it's not warm and fuzzy, but it is honest. I think that's why this music could have only came from a place like Detroit.

[recordhound]

The five were not a one trick pony, by any stretch. Two studio albums and one live record saw hard rock, white blues, experimental jazzish, long jams and short proto-punk singles. Not to mention Chuck Berry, Little Richard, James Brown, Sun Ra and virtually inventing a whole style of rock and roll that is still emulated by young punks the world over. When people talk about motor city rock...they mean the MC5. Even more than the Stooges, the five were the blueprint for a whole style. It was an amazing amount of variety in a short career really.

[princealbert]

MC5's claim to fame is that they were one of the first bands to use an expletive on record. It was oh-so-daring and forbidden at that time. The taboo factor sold a lot of records.

I don't think they sold a lot of records at the time. Probably more in recent years, which is a testament to their music's timelessness and relevance. The 5 kept the rock-n-roll flame burning at a time when hippie-dippy SF flower power and bad British blues jams where the order of the day. They dug Little Richard, Chuck Berry, Jody Reynolds, James Brown when all the other '60s rockers were "going up country" and getting all mellow and boring.

[Jimg]

I think gauging MC5's value by their use of "Motherfucker" on record is way off the mark. The 5 captured the era's cultural zeitgeist, and the volume and thrusting their music in everybody's face summed up alternative attitudes about Tricky Dick's war and other blunders.
I hate to say this, but "you had to be there to understand it". The days were thoughtful and intense, the nights stoned and groovy, the music often raw and creative - not just the 5, but dear John C and Miles too blending cultures and outlook and expressing the hope for Peace and Justice. And Detroit had so many creative bands of all stripes - Detroit ALWAYS has a strong music scene.
We may have been naieve, but we had tons and tones of faith in the essential goodness of our fellow travelers.
[[God this sounds so...dated...)

[princealbert]

I think gauging MC5's value by their use of "Motherfucker" on record is way off the mark. The 5 captured the era's cultural zeitgeist, and the volume and thrusting their music in everybody's face summed up alternative attitudes about Tricky Dick's war and other blunders.
I hate to say this, but "you had to be there to understand it". The days were thoughtful and intense, the nights stoned and groovy, the music often raw and creative - not just the 5, but dear John C and Miles too blending cultures and outlook and expressing the hope for Peace and Justice. And Detroit had so many creative bands of all stripes - Detroit ALWAYS has a strong music scene.
We may have been naieve, but we had tons and tones of faith in the essential goodness of our fellow travelers.
[[God this sounds so...dated...)

You're right on the mark, jimg. When I hear the MC5 song "Over and Over" I get a chill from the utter helplessness and disillusionment in the lyrics. Pretty heavy sentiment there. Even thought I was a tot when High Time came out, I still get the message of hopelessness and despair that lots of people must have felt when the whole hippie/revolution thing didn't really pan out and the ugliness of the '70s set in. The Who and the Stones could sing Won't Get Fooled Again or Street Fightin Man from their lofty pop star perches, but the 5 where living the shit.

[EASTSIDE CAT 67-83]

All you have to do to understand their greatness is watch the WHOLE 8:39 minute You Tube clip from '69 and you feel exhusted by the energy they put out, the MF'er part of the song is a nanosecond, these dudes, high or not... poored it out on stage and everyone who came after who tried to chop wood at this pace learned it in part from them.

[kenp]

Ordinary has put in his 2 cents and it is appreciated. Normally every thread ends up with pissed off people arguing at each other. The responses on here are very civil despite the missed informed post by Ordinary.
The Detroit rock scene in the 60's was huge, Detroit became THE rock city in the US in the 70's and on. All rock acts made Detroit a red letter date when they toured. The 60's rock scene in Detroit was as influential as much or more then any other US city. And the fact is the MC5 were standard bearers of the 60's scene. There is no way this band could have lasted long, they poured it out in their music. It was like a 100 yard dash for 50 miles.
There was a great pic posted on here that tells a big story of the MC5, they gave it everything.
Fred & Rob are truly missed

[BFoster]

I probably saw the MC5 20 or 30 times in the 60's, maybe more, usually at the Grande. I'm not sure that anybody really thought that they were in the same league as Hendrix, the Who, the Airplane etc., but it didn't matter...they were always fun to watch, and it was always gratifying to see them put a marginal national act to shame [[e.g. Blue Cheer, Iron Butterfly).

They had a high energy goofiness going on that offset the seriousness of the national acts. Even though they were talking all of the political stuff, what they were doing onstage was almost a rock and roll circus act...the Paul Revere synchronized guitar moves, and the 2nd tune [[after KOTJ) was almost always "Ramblin' Rose", which Tyner sang in a ridiculous Tiny Tim falsetto. And come to think of it, wasn't the KOTJMF intro routine basically right out of the James Brown / Brother Danny Ray playbook? When Sinclair and friends would mosey out and start honking on saxophones, nobody thought for a minute that those guys knew how to play [[and sorry, but even to a high school kid the guitar skills of the band seemed pretty dubious), but put it all together and it made for a great show, and something that could have only come out of Detroit. In the moment, you almost couldn't help but like them.

The other side of the coin was Iggy. Unless you were as high as he appeared to be, or were on code red alert because you were in spewing range, his sets would drone on forever and were boring as hell. The crowds would thin out noticeably - a good time to take a walk and inhale the scenery.

[pffft]

B. Foster -- That was Brother Wayne Kramer singing "Ramblin' Rose" in falsetto...the sun spot must have gotten you. Or was it whatever was wafting through the air at the Grande?

Otherwise, fine analysis...

Although you have to admit it was that two-guitar barrage that made 'em so cool. If they were sitting there playing tasty licks it wouldn't be as effective.

[d'oh]

Maybe you never heard the original version of "Ramblin' Rose" by Ted Taylor.. Of course he's a better singer than Brother Wayne, but he sings the whole song in a falsetto...

[blackmath]

I think the fact that Kramer and Smith weren't Hendrix and Clapton added to their appeal. Someone could look up at them on stage and think "I could play like that..." and just as it happened in England with punk 5 years later, many bands were formed. No one in their right mind looked at Clapton and thought they could play like him, so in a way he and his virtuoso contemporaries were always inaccessible and out of reach to most people. Hendrix brought rock and roll onto Saturn and Wayne Kramer and Fred "Sonic" Smith brought it right into your living room, getting drunk next to you on a sofa.

[pffft]

Maybe you never heard the original version of "Ramblin' Rose" by Ted Taylor.. Of course he's a better singer than Brother Wayne, but he sings the whole song in a falsetto...

I've definitely heard Ted Taylor's version...I thought we were talking about who sang it in the MC5?

[d'oh]

and the 2nd tune [[after KOTJ) was almost always
 "Ramblin' Rose", which Tyner sang in a ridiculous Tiny Tim falsetto.

I just wanted to clarify that Wayne sang the song in a falsetto not as a goof but because they were trying to cover the record...

[princealbert]

and the 2nd tune [[after KOTJ) was almost always
 "Ramblin' Rose", which Tyner sang in a ridiculous Tiny Tim falsetto.

I just wanted to clarify that Wayne sang the song in a falsetto not as a goof but because they were trying to cover the record...

The 5 had exceptional taste in cover tunes.... Jody Reynolds' "Fire of Love", The Troggs' "I Want You", JB's "It's a Man's World", Them's "I Can Only Give You Everything" to name a few.

[citylover]

I probably saw the MC5 20 or 30 times in the 60's, maybe more, usually at the Grande. I'm not sure that anybody really thought that they were in the same league as Hendrix, the Who, the Airplane etc., but it didn't matter...they were always fun to watch, and it was always gratifying to see them put a marginal national act to shame [[e.g. Blue Cheer, Iron Butterfly).

They had a high energy goofiness going on that offset the seriousness of the national acts. Even though they were talking all of the political stuff, what they were doing onstage was almost a rock and roll circus act...the Paul Revere synchronized guitar moves, and the 2nd tune [[after KOTJ) was almost always "Ramblin' Rose", which Tyner sang in a ridiculous Tiny Tim falsetto. And come to think of it, wasn't the KOTJMF intro routine basically right out of the James Brown / Brother Danny Ray playbook? When Sinclair and friends would mosey out and start honking on saxophones, nobody thought for a minute that those guys knew how to play [[and sorry, but even to a high school kid the guitar skills of the band seemed pretty dubious), but put it all together and it made for a great show, and something that could have only come out of Detroit. In the moment, you almost couldn't help but like them.

The other side of the coin was Iggy. Unless you were as high as he appeared to be, or were on code red alert because you were in spewing range, his sets would drone on forever and were boring as hell. The crowds would thin out noticeably - a good time to take a walk and inhale the scenery.

That is about as honest and accurate post as I have ever read on this forum.I would like to take time to point out to Prince Albert that neither the stones nor the who were on any lofty perches.The reason being at that time rock&roll was still in the hands of the people.The moneyed interests had not completely taken over yet......as a kid I went to shows at west park, hill aud ,crisler arena, the armory, the union ballroom all in ann arbor and all put on by counter culture types_
The profit makers[[little interest in the music or culture) came laeter.

[Whitehouse]

Now we've seen great stories here, and it would enrich this thread if there were more. But has anyone ever take pictures and isn't shy to share them with us? Would be awesome!

[BFoster]

That is about as honest and accurate post as I have ever read on this forum.I would like to take time to point out to Prince Albert that neither the stones nor the who were on any lofty perches.The reason being at that time rock&roll was still in the hands of the people.The moneyed interests had not completely taken over yet......as a kid I went to shows at west park, hill aud ,crisler arena, the armory, the union ballroom all in ann arbor and all put on by counter culture types_
The profit makers[[little interest in the music or culture) came laeter.

Thanks for the kind words citylover. The sudden "monetizing" [[the current MBA euphemism for barging in and squeezing every last shekel out of something that was already functioning quite well, and ruining it in the process) of rock and roll circa 1970 is a whole other thread / book / website. It's amazing to even contemplate that all of those national acts that played the [[old) Grande were never paid more than 4-5 k$ for the entire weekend. That wouldn't handle backstage catering for a modern act.

As far as the MC5, sorry Pffft for confusing Tyner and Kramer on "Ramblin' Rose". However, I've gotta admit that they were sort of a giant loud machine, and I never paid much attention to exactly who was doing what. The whole was definitely greater than the sum of the parts. In fact, I never actually realized there was a bass player in the band until a few years ago when, thanks to a good friend, I saw a bootleg copy of "A True Testimonial". In person, they were so loud that it was almost impossible to distinguish individual parts or instruments.

And thanks d'oh, I wasn't aware of Ted Taylor's version. However, I do know who he is and what he sounds like, and I doubt that every falsetto line he delivered was preceded by 20 kW of blistering distortion. After that buildup, you couldn't help laugh every time they broke it down and Kramer started singing.

[pffft]

"...and I doubt that every falsetto line he delivered was preceded by 20 kW of blistering distortion."

Nice...

[reddog289]

Back when I was around 14 in 1983, I went to Ceder Point. On the first hill of every roller coaster I rode I would scream "KICK OUT THE JAMS MOTHER F%er", Bout the time the 5th roller coaster ride my "Big Brother" slaped me upside the head. Thanks to Peter Werbe for having Rob Tyner on his show Oh so long ago.He played it about One in the morning. Got it on tape somewhere.

[blackmath]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FsvG1wWHIc

Here they are at Wayne State University in 1970 playing Looking At You.. one of my favorites.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0elhlPnOpng

and here is my favorite MC5 song - Black to Comm. This is the most primal, visceral thing I've ever heard.

[bopcity]

Has the release of the True Testimonial documentary again become a possibility?

This sounds like a hint, maybe the on-line poll's a way of gauging interest?

-----Original Message-----

"With the aptly titled MC5: A True Testimonial, [director Dave] Thomas captures the taste for revolt in Detroit that inspired the MC5, a desperation that fueled more important pop figures [[besides just Motown artists) than maybe in any other city — an outlaw eruption that ranged from Parliament/Funkadelic to Iggy Pop." - Elvis Mitchell, New York Times

“It’s a great document of the band, it’s a great document of life, and it’s a great document of things ... far and beyond the band.” - Jackson Smith, Detroit-based musician son of Fred & Patti Smith

"Music so extraordinary that it transformed the lives of all who experienced it demands the release of a documentary that does the MC5 justice. Few bands have ever seen so much go so wrong so quickly and have been so misunderstood in the process. A True Testimonial represents a belated opportunity to set things straight, put things right. The fans deserve it. So does the band. And so does the music." - Don McLeese, author of Kick Out The Jams
[[Continuum 33 1/3 series)

Metro Times review: "HIGH TIME FOR TESTIMONIAL" [[Oct. 30, 2003)

It's now been over 8 years since the last authorized screening of the MC5 - A True Testimonial documentary at the Detroit Film Theatre on October 30, 2003.

In that time, all the alleged 'copyright infringement' claims made against David Thomas, Laurel Legler and Future/Now Films have been thoroughly litigated, found to be without merit and the film has reportedly been cleared for released, once the various music licenses are secured.

The poll questions are:

A) Do you still care?

B) Would you pay to see it in a theatre?

C) Would you be interested in a legitimate DVD package?

Care to weigh in? Please do, your comments will be appreciated.

Vote here: MC5 - A True Testimonial Poll

And, by all means, please share that link with anyone who might find this a pertinent topic.

KOTJMF!!!

[Pam]

It's now been over 8 years since the last authorized screening of the MC5 - A True Testimonial documentary at the Detroit Film Theatre on October 30, 2003.

Their math is a little off, but good movie. I was at that screening.

[Baselinepunk]

Sure, why not? It's a really good movie and people like it.