Oakland County Can't Keep Snowy Roads Clear; Blames Budget Cuts

[Kevgoblue]

OK......response #2 saying that this "problem" we have is just what it is. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to resolve it? Obviously external conditions have changed. That means there should be some changes to internal procedures to counteract them.

How about during the winter they put half the guys on 2nd shift. Thereby allowing a larger contingent of drivers available when roads are less crowded without having to work overtime. This will also allow residents [[their customers) an easier commute in the morning [[providing their service).

[Novine]

That's what they already do and would be obvious if you've read the articles about how they responded to the storm.

[Kevgoblue]

I read the article, thank you very much.
It said they work the drivers until they're required to come off the road. Then half their fleet sits in the yard, unutilized.

And I don't believe I ever said anything about training your most expensive employees to drive trucks. But they do need to train somebody if they don't have enuf people to keep the trucks on the road full time, when necessary.

Again, what's your solution, rather than being a naysayer about why another option won't work?

[ja!mz]

The County can raise taxes...with or without a vote..

[Johnnny5]

Again, what's your solution, rather than being a naysayer about why another option won't work?

Buy MORE trucks, hire MORE drivers and use MORE salt.

The problem is all those things take MORE money.

It's nearly impossible to offer the same [[or better) service with fewer resources. The price of salt has doubled over the last decade [[And spiked to $125 2 years ago), fuel is on it's way back up to all time highs, health care costs are higher every year. Yet the County is expected to provide the same service they did in 2000 when tax coffers were flush, gas was $1.20 a gallon and salt could be had for $25 a ton. There's only two choices. We either lower our expectations or increase the funding for the County's snow removal services.

[RO_Resident]

The County can raise taxes...with or without a vote..

This is not true in Michigan. The Headlee amendment restricts how local units of government can raise taxes.

From the Michigan Constitution:
Sec. 31. Units of Local Government are hereby prohibited from levying any tax not authorized by law or charter when this section is ratified or from increasing the rate of an existing tax above that rate authorized by law or charter when this section is ratified, without the approval of a majority of the qualified electors of that unit of Local Government voting thereon.

[RO_Resident]

I read the article, thank you very much.
It said they work the drivers until they're required to come off the road. Then half their fleet sits in the yard, unutilized.

And I don't believe I ever said anything about training your most expensive employees to drive trucks. But they do need to train somebody if they don't have enuf people to keep the trucks on the road full time, when necessary.

Again, what's your solution, rather than being a naysayer about why another option won't work?

First off, pretty much every county, city, and village in Michigan could have written the piece by Brent Bair. The revenue crunch isn't just limited to Oakland County.

Many communities in southeast Michigan have been experimenting with new technology and techniques to make snow removal more effective. Many are minimizing the amount of salt they put on the road. Why? If they put excess salt on the road or when salt is ineffective, much of it will end up on the side of the road. Some communities are experimenting with prewetting or brining the road to increase the effectiveness of salt. Others are using beet juice to make the salting more effective, too.

Wayne County purchased a bunch of new trucks that include wing plows that can scrape the shoulder as well as a lane and a half of the pavement.

RCOC released a presser that outlined the plow driver issue earlier this year:
“This winter, we will have about 50 fewer employees to drive snow plows/salt trucks,” stated RCOC Board Chairman Richard Skarritt. “That is about one third fewer drivers this year than we had in 2007.”
RCOC typically puts 106 snowplows/salt trucks on the road to battle a major snow or ice storm. The initial drivers can stay on the road for up to 16 hours before they must rest, according to RCOC rules.
In the past, RCOC was able to replace the initial 106 drivers with up to 84 drivers for a second 16-hour shift to continue fighting the storm or to clean up after the storm. This year, the agency will have less than 40 drivers available for the second shift.
“That’s a substantial reduction in our ability to fight a prolonged storm, or even a series of small storms, or to clean up after a storm,” explained RCOC Vice Chairman Eric Wilson. He explained the reduction in staff is a direct result of declining state road funding for RCOC.

http://www.rcocweb.org/Lists/PressRe...rm.aspx?ID=290

[Todd_Scott]

The competence of the RCOC is limited to what they've always done -- build more roads and assume someone will give them the money to maintain them. They admit they cannot afford to maintain the roads they have while they continue to widen roads and even create new ones.

The RCOC has been making major pitches for increased road taxes so they can continue doing what they've always done. They are a one-trick pony that has alway assumed their "trick" would be sustainable.

[DetroitPlanner]

The competence of the RCOC is limited to what they've always done -- build more roads and assume someone will give them the money to maintain them. They admit they cannot afford to maintain the roads they have while they continue to widen roads and even create new ones.

The RCOC has been making major pitches for increased road taxes so they can continue doing what they've always done. They are a one-trick pony that has alway assumed their "trick" would be sustainable.

You can have this same arguement and substitute rails to trails or DDOT. What is your point? None of these agencies have the power to maintain anything in Michigan unless they are given a piece of the pie from soneone else.

[Todd_Scott]

You can have this same arguement and substitute rails to trails or DDOT. What is your point? None of these agencies have the power to maintain anything in Michigan unless they are given a piece of the pie from soneone else.

That's no revelation and that's not the point of what I wrote.

The RCOC has built an unsustainable road infrastructure by design and has expected everyone else to continue funding them. They are continuing to expand their infrastructure in light of diminishing funding.

In addition, the RCOC is a separate government entity which is unaccountable to the public and even unaccountable to the county itself.

This is a model of roadway governance created by bicyclists in the 1890s that only survives today due to cronyism and state law.

[DetroitPlanner]

That's no revelation and that's not the point of what I wrote.

The RCOC has built an unsustainable road infrastructure by design and has expected everyone else to continue funding them. They are continuing to expand their infrastructure in light of diminishing funding.

In addition, the RCOC is a separate government entity which is unaccountable to the public and even unaccountable to the county itself.

This is a model of roadway governance created by bicyclists in the 1890s that only survives today due to cronyism and state law.

Where are the federal and state dollars for the transit agencies and biking community coming from? User fees generated by those who purchase gasoline and vehicle registrations. This is the same pot of money used for the roads. In fact if it wasn't for gas taxes the transit and rails to trails operators would be hosed. If you are going to say that the road agencies build things that are unsustainable, you need to look at where those dollars come from! Politicians may respond with... hmm they won't be unsustainable if we just cut off bike and transit funding.

To say that road commissions are unaccountable as a defense is a joke. In most counties in Michigan these are elected positions. In urban areas they are appointed by elected officials. The last thing that Brooks wants is to appoint an idiot to the Road Commission. You might as well say rails to trails and DDOT are unaccountable. If you are so sure of your statements, tell me which roads that RCOC is add next year? Which road did they adding this year? I see RCOC fixing a lot of roads, putting in a lot of bike paths, and doing things that make roads safer. They spend a lot more to mainatin things than they do to expand the network. What few expansions I have seen are bike paths that they have built in townships!

What does your arguement even have to do with the topic at hand? The Commission is seeing lower revenues and they need to adjust thier spending to it. How is this being irresponsible? What kind of responsibillity does the biking or transit community have? All they do is suck the revenues generated for road repairs away. Nothing is generated by these two modes that go into the HTF or Act 51.

The system of funding transportation is broke. Your wild arguements are not helping solve any problems. If the user fees for the road agencies have got to this point, and as our government looks to make cuts, the first thing cut is going to be bike paths and transit. That is the last thing I want.

[Todd_Scott]

Where are the federal and state dollars for the transit agencies and biking community coming from? User fees generated by those who purchase gasoline and vehicle registrations. This is the same pot of money used for the roads. In fact if it wasn't for gas taxes the transit and rails to trails operators would be hosed. If you are going to say that the road agencies build things that are unsustainable, you need to look at where those dollars come from! Politicians may respond with... hmm they won't be unsustainable if we just cut off bike and transit funding.

Here's a quick lesson on bike facilities and transportation funding. Yes, we use some transportation funding to build them and a portion of that funding is tied to user fees. Some facilities are already quite sustainable [[e.g. Dequindre Cut and RiverWalk.) We are working to make sure all are sustainable and funded in the near future through sources other than transportation funding. So, no, the gas tax has no bearing rail-trail operations.

New RCOC roads? Martin in Commerce and the Lyon Townships ring roads are two recent additions that come to mind. Next year they are widening portions of Crooks, Southfield, 12 Mile, Baldwin, Tienken, and Orchard Lake Road. They also plan to pave Washington. They are continuing to expand their maintenance liability.

To say that road commissions are unaccountable as a defense is a joke.

No, it's no joke. It's by design. in 1890, bicyclists wanted good roads paid for through taxes. Farmers didn't. Bicyclists created legislation for road commissions that could build roads despite public opposition. By the early 1920s, there was no longer a need to have road commissions unaccountable to the public, but the state laws have never been updated.

Another correction to your comments. The RCOC does not fund bike paths.

[Hermod]

The RCOC has built an unsustainable road infrastructure by design and has expected everyone else to continue funding them. They are continuing to expand their infrastructure in light of diminishing funding.

No, the road net in Oakland County is exactly the same as it was sixty years ago with the exception of I-75, I-695, and M-59 which RCOC didn't plan. All of those gravel section line roads that existed in 1950 have just been paved and in some cases widened, the roads are still just as long as they ever were..

[iheartthed]

No, the road net in Oakland County is exactly the same as it was sixty years ago with the exception of I-75, I-695, and M-59 which RCOC didn't plan. All of those gravel section line roads that existed in 1950 have just been paved and in some cases widened, the roads are still just as long as they ever were..

The M-5 extension.

[majohnson]

Oakland County's culture of corruption led to icy streets, not lack of money.

[citylover]

Oakland County's culture of corruption led to icy streets, not lack of money.

Well if your'e gonna be wrong you might as well be strong and you are wrong and strong....almost laughable in light of the recent indictments.

[DetroitPlanner]

New RCOC roads? Martin in Commerce and the Lyon Townships ring roads are two recent additions that come to mind. Next year they are widening portions of Crooks, Southfield, 12 Mile, Baldwin, Tienken, and Orchard Lake Road. They also plan to pave Washington. They are continuing to expand their maintenance liability.

No, it's no joke. It's by design. in 1890, bicyclists wanted good roads paid for through taxes. Farmers didn't. Bicyclists created legislation for road commissions that could build roads despite public opposition. By the early 1920s, there was no longer a need to have road commissions unaccountable to the public, but the state laws have never been updated.

Another correction to your comments. The RCOC does not fund bike paths.

OL is not being widened, Commece Township is paying for Martin Rd, Crooks is a City of Troy Project. Town ships can't by law build anything in the road right of way. It must be done by the Road Commission. The funding may come from a combination of gas tax through the enhancement program or all funded by the township.

[Novine]

"No, the road net in Oakland County is exactly the same as it was sixty years ago with the exception of I-75, I-695, and M-59 which RCOC didn't plan. All of those gravel section line roads that existed in 1950 have just been paved and in some cases widened, the roads are still just as long as they ever were.."

You're going to ignore the thousands of miles of subdivision roads in the townships that RCOC maintains? Or the fact that a 5 lane road is more expensive to maintain than a two lane road?

[313WX]

So they're blaming the poor snow clean up in Oakland County on budget cuts, eh?

That's like saying I didn't clean my room because I was tired.

[jackie5275]

You're going to ignore the thousands of miles of subdivision roads in the townships that RCOC maintains?

My family & I have lived in Oakland Co the past 40 yrs. I've NEVER EVER seen a RCOC truck clear any snow on any residential streets where we've lived. In the 70s when our street was a dirt road, they graded and oiled it once or twice a year. I don't know what maintainence they're providing and where, but in my 40 yrs of experience I've seen little work being done by them on residential streets.

[Novine]

Where abouts is that?