Pelosi lies about opposition to "torture"

[mjs]

The intelligence analysis reports and volume of intel flowing in at the time contradict that claim: "Bin Laden Attacks May be Imminent", "Bin Laden and Associates Making Near-Term Threats", "Bin Laden Threats are Real" and an August 6th Presidential Brief entitled "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in the US". The chapter name is from a Tenet quote summarizing the situation as experienced prior to the attack. The 9/11 Report is long, but the chapter isn't. Its available at your library and an excellent read.

[Lorax]

No, actually they don't contradict.

Ask Richard Clarke- and read his book as well. He was, after all, the one in charge.

I may recommed John Dean's books of late:

Conscience of a Conservative, Broken Government, and Worse Than Watergate.

[mjs]

Lorax, my premise was that when people go off half cocked repeating you're either against us or your for us, lets kill them all, turn the middle east into a parking lot, freaks, towel heads, and numerous other racial epithets, the weaker politicians are going to do something we regret.

[Lorax]

I couldn't agree more. So what's the point?

What you're describing is the kind of rhetoric from Bush followers, and ideed, Bush's own cowboy diplomacy.

[mjs]

I haven't read Clarke's book yet so correct me if I'm wrong. My understanding was that he disapproved of how Bush responded to the threat of Al Queada, not that an Al Queda attack was a suprise to the intelligence community. He may have even been arguing that the intelligence resources were too underfunded to learn of the details of a specific attack in time. We had all the pieces of the puzzle in time, we just didn't have enough resources to put the puzzle together prior to 9/11/01.

[mjs]

What Bush rhetoric? I said Clinton missed an opportunity to kill UBL and Bush missed an opportunity to foil his plans.

My point is that the overwhelming majority was saying it. Not just conservatives. I was there. I remember thinking, isn't there any opposition to this?

[mjs]

I was looking for a source to prove the war in Iraq was a bipartisan, but actually found proof I was wrong. 126 [[61%) of 208 Democratic Representatives voted against the resolution. Kerry's whole double-talking I voted against it before I voted for it because we were tricked misled me. And Bush's high mark approval rating were already slipping at that time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=s2002-237
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=h2002-455

[Lorax]

Actually Clinton didn't "miss" an opportunity to kill Bin Laden, he had the opportunity, and chose not to kill hundreds of other people in the process. The collateral damage would have been too great. It was the correct decision at the time.

In hindsight since 9/11 we see it as a missed opportunity, rather like those who voted for Bush, and not Gore also missed their opportunity. Knowing what we know now, no sane person would have voted for Bush/Cheney in the first place.

[Lorax]

Also, what your stated sources probably don't tell you, is that war was declared by Bush/Cheney on their say-so alone.

Congress was not allowed to declare war, for the first time in our history due to Bush's so-called Patriot Act, which allows the executive to declare war on his intelligence alone, with only a vote of "authorization" from congress necessary.

What the vote that Kerry is slammed for really did was only give the executive the "authority" to declare war under the supposed "temporary" measures put in place by the Patriot Act, which among other things allows for rendering "enemy combatants" to black-site prisons in places like Angola, where "detainees", not prisoners in the usual sense of the word are denied basic rights like an attorney, visitation, and were subjected to torture as we now know.

Wiretapping without court orders [[going through the FISA court was the norm for nearly 30 years, and denial of requests was rare) was also a chief tenent of the act, which as we now know was done with impunity as early as Feb. 01, when the Bush Crime Family was wiretapping political enemies as a matter of course, and was data-mining the conversations and computer keystrokes of all Americans, which they have stored in several data collection centers across the country today.

The redrawing of the constitution along the lines of an Imperial President is antithetical to the original intent of the founding fathers. It in itself was allowed by a majority republican congress, and done with impunity. There is nothing about any of this that was legal, as the signing statements Bush added to all bills that crossed his desk and were signed, attest to.

These signing statments were used by Bush more than all presidents combined, and basicially attempt to indemnify his inner circle from being prosecuted from crimes once they leave office.

As I write this, CNN just reported that the republican majority Supreme Court has stopped several lawsuits in their tracks attempting to sue Bush administration officials in civil cases brought against specifically John Ashcroft and several others, by Americans of Arabic descent who were quarantined in a Brooklyn prison after 9/11.

Just another partisan example of how repugnicans have stacked the deck against justice in this country.

[mjs]

If, for the sake of argument, the collateral damage would have been that high, I respect your view, but still disagree with it. Intelligence had already tied him to more than just financing of Aden, Somalia, Manila, other worldwide attack plans, and plans to obtain nuclear material. I think it was Frontline that cited top Clinton sources that said Clinton feared killing Bin Laden in the middle of his impeachment mess because his enemies would say he was just creating a distraction.

As a former defense attorney, I couldn't agree with you more on the myriad of problems that should have been obvious from the Patriot Act's inception. I was hoping the Supreme Court would step in as tempers simmered.

[Detroitej72]

And no, I was not championing the removel of the Bush CrimeFamily because there is no such thing .
Maybe you should thank him for being safe all these years instead of your ilk constantly trying to tear down the very people that keep you and yours safe and able to constantly talk trash about those that keep you in that trash talking mode.

This is the funniest comment made so far by the right. Maybe you guys should thank Clinton for keeping us safe during his term. Unlike Bush and 911, Clinton actually caught the terrorists under his watch, see the first WTC bombing and that right wing radical Timmy McVie.

I still would like to hear more about Bush Sr. dinning with BinLadin's family members on the morning of September 11, though I'm sure Rush, Hannitey, and the righties wont be bringing us that story any time soon.

[Lorax]

I am unaware of any Clinton aides throwing him under the bus for not going through with killing Bin Laden, especially in light of the Lewinsky bullcrap. If there had been a democratically controlled congress at the time, the Lewinsky affair wouldn't have been more than a blip on the horizon. I think Clinton would have welcomed a distraction, but killing hunderds of people would be a crass measure, rather like Bush and his bloodlust.

Repugnicans were hot and heavy with the witch hunt, hiring partisan hack Kenny Starr to do the dirty work.

Time to revisit some of these low-down tactics, turning tables on Big Dick Cheney and his merry band of thieves.

What's gratifying in all of this is the fact that the frauds & felonies of Bush/Cheney, torture, wiretapping, illegal war, stolen elections, voter fraud, evangelical extremism, all represent their legacy, and there's no getting away from it.

Any encyclopedic entry on the past 8 years of terror will have more paragraphs with asterisks than paragraphs of accomplishments.

[President Sekou]

I wonder if this whole torture thing actually worked? If it did and it saved hundreds if not thousands of lives would any of you have a differing opinion on the issue? I mean if 9/11 could have been prevented by torturing the shit out of someone you wouldn't do it? I would.

However I imagine this issue will be the new abortion of this era, always debated, never agreed upon, and will continue to happen.

As for Pelosi, yeah idiot move on her part. I love when a hypocrite is exposed especially one as self righteous as this hippie [[[[[[[[[ who has been wagging her finger for years at the very thing she knew about. She should definitely be removed as speaker and there should definitely be an investigation as to how deep the hypocrisy goes.

[Lorax]

This is only another Repugnican witch hunt- Pelosi had nothing to do with torture, in fact the Tushies were torturing people months before Pelosi was in on any meetings.

And she was NOT made aware that torture was, or had been used. Period. Where are you people getting your information? Others who were in on briefings by the White House including Bob Graham and Jane Harman back up Pelosi's statements.

There is no smoking gun here, only more deflection by the fathers of lies, the Bush Crime Family.

[mjs]

She was aware of their definition of torture and I hope someone in that position can follow basic logic.

Major Premise: Executive Branch officials state they will do everything in their power to fight terrorism.
Minor Premise: Executive Branch officials state they believe enhanced interrogation is in their power.
Conclusion: Executive Branch officials will fight terrorism with enhanced interrogation.

If she wanted to avoid the conclusion, she had to attack the premise by drafting a law clearly stating that the enhanced interrogation methods are not within Executive power. She didn't do it then and still refuses to do it now still leaving the men and women of our intelligence services between a rock and a hard place.

[ccbatson]

As to whether the interrogation techniques work...CIA documents answering that very question will not be released by Obama.

[Detroitej72]

As to whether the interrogation techniques work...CIA documents answering that very question will not be released by Obama.

Regarding the clown who was water boarded 184 times, I would like to know what information they got on the 184th time that he failed to tell them on the first 183 times.

[ccbatson]

Ask Obama to release the information then.

[Detroitej72]

Ask Obama to release the information then.

As Chaney said while he was the sitting VP, Its classified, for our protection.

[Lorax]

Sadly, the naysayers on this thread just refuse to accept fact.

Pelosi DID NOT KNOW ANYTHING more than the republicans who were in on the same meetings.

How about going after them first, since they were in control of our government during this time.

Obviously it's more fun to be a partisan hack.

O.K., I'll type the next line in boldface so some of you can better read it:

TORTURE WAS GOING ON MONTHS BEFORE PELOSI WAS PART OF ANY BRIEFING. BUSH'S OWN PEOPLE CONFIRMED THIS.

Pelosi was informed that the Tushies felt they had legal language to carry out 'enhanced interrogation' and would notify those who were briefed IF AND WHEN SUCH TACTICS WOULD BE USED.

And that was the end of it. No confirmation that they had or would employ these tactics. Naturally, they already had employed torture, so in effect, they lied to all the people briefed, including repugnicans.

This story has no traction, and is a clear distraction created by the fascist right to bring down someone who has been labeled by neocon talk radio as "suffering from botox withdrawl" and "too fashionable for her own good" and "part of the lunatic hippie left wing" and "a San Francisco liberal".

And repugnicans want to be taken seriously?

I've said it a thousand times, and you still believe what Lush Bimbo and Hannity the Manatee has to say about it.

Stop drinking the Tush flavored KoolAid, OK?

[mjs]

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Ben Franklin.

I can at least respect the opposition if the argument is simply whether we should pass a law to allow torture it if it gets results, but saying that the exec honestly thought the methods were legit or that Pelosi had no inkling of their intent is another story.

[Detroitej72]

Obviously it's more fun to be a partisan hack.

This story has no traction, and is a clear distraction created by the fascist right to bring down someone who has been labeled by neocon talk radio as "suffering from botox withdrawl" and "too fashionable for her own good" and "part of the lunatic hippie left wing" and "a San Francisco liberal".

The neo-con mouthpieces need something to offer their zombie audiences. When they have nothing, name calling will satisfy their ditto heads who care little for facts.

[ccbatson]

Only the first 2 are personal attacks [[albeit true), the last 2 descriptions refer to her actions [[and also true)...completely fair game

[Lorax]

There is no passing of any laws regarding torture. We are signatories to the Geneva Conventions, and eventhough Alberto VonGonzo thought the Geneva Conventions were 'quaint' and antiquated, they are international law which we signed on to.

As a nation, we prosecuted and executed Japanese officers after WWII for torturing our POW's, thus establishing legal precedent for torture being illegal.

There is no question, as all experts in the field of interrogations say, the info obtained from torture is unreliable, and has never been proven to be effective, whereas bringing around prisoners through other means were nearly always effective.

[Lorax]

Only the first 2 are personal attacks [[albeit true), the last 2 descriptions refer to her actions [[and also true)...completely fair game

Oh, there's more where that came from. Pelosi has been raked over the coals by Lush Bimbo for being female, among other things.

In the final analysis, this is another republican freak show distraction without traction.