High Speed Rail

[stasu1213]

We tend to forget that apart from great rail service in Europe, the air travel offer is not in any way deficient because of it. The density in Europe made it just about perfect for the mix of travel choices available. I think we will see high speed rail happen, probably not very high speed like they are building in China, but we will get options open. That by the way means competition. I also agree with you GP on the Airlines subsidies bit. I wonder if there are any major Airlines out there making any kind of profit. Europe's largest airlines are also heavily subsidized and leveraged in a big way, when not wholly state owned such as Air France.

I would think that for economic security alone, highspeed rail is an important new tool to develop. At a time when fuel availability is uncertain, and specific regions of the US are affected by economic decline in specific industries, this should be enough of an incentive to move forward. The other choices will be there, but trains that run on time and can get you from city centers in an hour more than the plane takes, say Detroit to Chicago or Montreal to Toronto
are worthwhile. If you consider the travel times from airport to downtown etc...

Amtrak probably doesnt want to lose business causing the delay in the development in High Speed Rail. I had taken a train from Detroit to Chicago. It had taken me 5 grueling hours to get there

[Gannon]

Not long after the advent of cell phones and laptops...I started taking the train to my Chicagoland client's work. I found that five hours VERY productive worktime. WAY better than the 3.5-4 hours it took to fly, with the time it took to park, clear security, board, then drive in from O'Hare [[that last leg occasionally made it 5 hours!).

The ONLY grueling trip was one in the dead of winter where some malfunction causes a one-foot gap...maybe a door wouldn't close, or the car-interconnection or whatever...due to ice. It was freezing the whole trip. Dangerous.

They gave us NOTHING when we complained. I think Amtrak STILL owes me for that one! LOL

Regardless, I would take the train in a minute. If it were reasonably priced...I'd take it to the west coast, I've heard the scenery through the mountains is stunning...if it is ANYTHING like the view through the Wisconsin Dells, then I'm game.


Every time I hear the boast on NPR that the railroads can pull so much weight for so long on ONLY a gallon of diesel fuel, however it is voiced, I get a little pissed that it costs SO much more to take the train those long distances. Planes burn way more fuel, and their infrastructure isn't already paid off.

What makes trains so damned expensive? Is it the maintenance? They are using largely older engines and cars and rails...so they aren't exactly buying new hardware.

At least not until we make the step up to high speed. Anyone have a comparison in the 'green' aspects between airlines and HSR for any given route?! High speed rail really is a game-changer, it gives the airlines their first real competition.



Maybe THAT's why it is delayed...

[Magnatomicflux]

Every time I hear the boast on NPR that the railroads can pull so much weight for so long on ONLY a gallon of diesel fuel, however it is voiced, I get a little pissed that it costs SO much more to take the train those long distances. Planes burn way more fuel, and their infrastructure isn't already paid off.

What makes trains so damned expensive? Is it the maintenance? They are using largely older engines and cars and rails...so they aren't exactly buying new hardware.

...

I don't understand that either Gannon. BUT....be happy you're not takng VIA across Canada. They provide a great service, and a beautiful trip...but check out these numbers for Me and Me alone to take a trip:


Depart Jan 4 and Return Departure on the 18th for both railroads, round trip tickets......



Amtrak 1 coach seat Detroit to Vancouver [[multi-train)
Anywhere between $272.00 to 325 USD


VIA rail 1 Economy "supersaver" ticket [[coach) Windsor to Vancouver [[multi train)

ready?............................$1,097.23 CAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!


Even round trip, same dates, same seat.....Windsor to Toronto is $122 CAD.

Just....Me. Bullshit. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough for the deals?

WHY??????!?!?!??!?! I love trains! They are a fantastic, worry free, economical way to travel. But I can't afford that shit.

What's the difference? Just the sheer population the train encounters on it's travels and more riders? Is "The Canadian" more of a ......vacation on it's own, then a simple form of transportation? I don't get it.

Can anyone explain this to me?

[Zaiko]

Someone wanted to know how to find the story that aired on WDET Thursday morning and afternoon. It's here with other related stories on the subject.
http://www.michigannow.org/2010/12/0...te-fails-rail/

[Hermod]

What makes trains so damned expensive? Is it the maintenance? They are using largely older engines and cars and rails...so they aren't exactly buying new hardware.

Gannon, it is just the sheer number of people involved to operate and service the train and ticketing process. The airlines only have to do it at the origin and destination. Trains have to staff all the way along the route. You also have to consider how many times that same airline seat can be sold in the course of a day compared with getting one fare for a seat for a three day transcontinental trip.

[Russix]

I don't understand that either Gannon. BUT....be happy you're not takng VIA across Canada. They provide a great service, and a beautiful trip...but check out these numbers for Me and Me alone to take a trip:


Depart Jan 4 and Return Departure on the 18th for both railroads, round trip tickets......



Amtrak 1 coach seat Detroit to Vancouver [[multi-train)
Anywhere between $272.00 to 325 USD


VIA rail 1 Economy "supersaver" ticket [[coach) Windsor to Vancouver [[multi train)

ready?............................$1,097.23 CAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!


Even round trip, same dates, same seat.....Windsor to Toronto is $122 CAD.

Just....Me. Bullshit. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough for the deals?

WHY??????!?!?!??!?! I love trains! They are a fantastic, worry free, economical way to travel. But I can't afford that shit.

What's the difference? Just the sheer population the train encounters on it's travels and more riders? Is "The Canadian" more of a ......vacation on it's own, then a simple form of transportation? I don't get it.

Can anyone explain this to me?

You are spending 4 days to do what a $700 airplane ticket can do in 8 hours. Airplanes do trips like this more economically, high speed trains do shorter trips more economically, there's a place for both of them in this world. You can still buy tickets aboard cargo ships and spend a few weeks sailing to Europe or Asia at $100/day if your heart so desires.

[Novine]

"What's the difference? Just the sheer population the train encounters on it's travels and more riders? Is "The Canadian" more of a ......vacation on it's own, then a simple form of transportation? I don't get it.

Can anyone explain this to me?"

First off, the fare you quote for VIA is roundtrip, not one way, which is what you quote for Amtrak. Amtrak is closer to $550 roundtrip.

Second, VIA charges the GST on tickets which adds $126 to the ticket total.

Third, the run between Windsor and Toronto is heavily used which means that VIA can get away with charging premium prices for that route.

Fourth, the train between Toronto and Vancouver is primarily a "tourist" train for those who can afford to take the time to ride the train that distance, which is also 400 miles further than Detroit to Seattle. VIA can afford to jack up prices on these runs because the people who ride those trains are generally willing to pay for it.

Most of those factors don't apply to the trains you're wanting to take on Amtrak. Also, Amtrak long-haul trains are more heavily subsidized in order to keep Amtrak serving those red states, whose Senators hate funding Amtrak but insist on getting Amtrak service, so those ticket prices are cheap in comparison to trains going to more popular destinations.

[Magnatomicflux]

"What's the difference? Just the sheer population the train encounters on it's travels and more riders? Is "The Canadian" more of a ......vacation on it's own, then a simple form of transportation? I don't get it.

Can anyone explain this to me?"

First off, the fare you quote for VIA is roundtrip, not one way, which is what you quote for Amtrak. Amtrak is closer to $550 roundtrip.

Second, VIA charges the GST on tickets which adds $126 to the ticket total.

Third, the run between Windsor and Toronto is heavily used which means that VIA can get away with charging premium prices for that route.

Fourth, the train between Toronto and Vancouver is primarily a "tourist" train for those who can afford to take the time to ride the train that distance, which is also 400 miles further than Detroit to Seattle. VIA can afford to jack up prices on these runs because the people who ride those trains are generally willing to pay for it.

Most of those factors don't apply to the trains you're wanting to take on Amtrak. Also, Amtrak long-haul trains are more heavily subsidized in order to keep Amtrak serving those red states, whose Senators hate funding Amtrak but insist on getting Amtrak service, so those ticket prices are cheap in comparison to trains going to more popular destinations.

That's what I was looking for, thanks. You too Russix. I thought I had clicked round trip for Amtrak...huh. Good thing I wasn't booking a ticket! Maybe I went "back" or something and reset it.

I figured the Toronto-Vancouver train was generally a tourist line, and I wouldn't take it to get from A to B...that would be stupid and a waste of time lol. Still though.....that's a hell of a price to move a couple tons of flesh around. I would assume they'd get more riders with a lower ticket price. Wouldn't that translate into more money?

Thanks for the info Novine.

[canuck]

Magna,

There is also the fact that business travellers on planes spend 2, 3 times the cost that us ordinary folk do. The outrageous prices for businees class seats pay for the rest of us. This does not exist on trains. The coach prices are for people who buy their light lunch per item from the service attendants. The club section has full meals and aperitive drinks, chocolates, coffee, wine or beer, digestive drinks and believe me you get as much as on a plane in first class [[for Via Rail) I dont know about Amtrak. My wife is a service agent on Via trains and she does both coach and club.

For a Montreal to Quebec City or a Toronto to Windsor; the trip is long enough to be a relaxing excursion and short enough to be efficient. The Montreal to Toronto is long but it is popular because a lot of folks cant handle or are just fed up with planes. It is also a great way for a bunch of sports fans or likeminded group to travel with fewer constraints than on a bus or aircraft.


Toronto- Vancouver is a tourist thing, it is a once in a lifetime trip for train buffs, and japanese, australian, european tourists, or canadians who finally get a chance to appreciate the breadth of the country. Maybe 4 grand per person for 10, 12 days with sleeper cars and hotel stays in Jasper or Banff and Vancouver. It's like a cruise.

[Magnatomicflux]

I guess I'm just a little depressed that being a railfan......for me and my wife, that trip is simply unaffordable lol

Be nice if they put an observation car on the Windsor-Toronto train though....make it feel more fancy

OT....if you don't mind.......but is your wife home each night or does she have to spend say every other night at the other end of the route? I was looking at applying to VIA, though the W-T trains probably don't hire very often. I'm not too fond of not coming home each night.

[Hermod]

I guess I'm just a little depressed that being a railfan...

I am a rail fan as well, but very realistic when it comes to the costs involved with passenger rail.

[Novine]

If you haven't rode any of the VIA trains, especially the "tourist" trains, you'll find that part of the reason that it costs more is that they provide a higher level of service as compared to Amtrak, at least in my experience. When you go, pay the extra to go Sleeper or Sleeper Touring Class. It's the "first class" of train travel and well worth the extra money. Also, VIA runs specials this time of year for their long-distance trains so if you're more interested in the train experience than the chance to enjoy Canada in the summer, now's the time to go with fares discounted up to 50% off.

http://www.viarail.ca/en/fall-fares/discount

[canuck]

I guess I'm just a little depressed that being a railfan......for me and my wife, that trip is simply unaffordable lol

Be nice if they put an observation car on the Windsor-Toronto train though....make it feel more fancy

OT....if you don't mind.......but is your wife home each night or does she have to spend say every other night at the other end of the route? I was looking at applying to VIA, though the W-T trains probably don't hire very often. I'm not too fond of not coming home each night.

She sleeps in Toronto or even Ottawa and Quebec City depending on the trip. So she spends the night away about a third to half the time. I think that thru the grapevine there is talk of hiring more in Toronto these days. This year seems a lot busier than last and they are rebuilding Union Station in TO for VIA and GOtrains and it will be pretty awesome when done. I would try out. You can apply and get paid training for a 5 to six week period or so. The conditions are pretty good for workers at VIA. I guess it depends about your wife's work situation, the kids, and how important it is for you to be home daily. You can apply for a job at the station depending on your work experience. In time you could reapply for available jobs on trains, etc... Keep us posted. Good Luck!

[Magnatomicflux]

Thanks for the info canuck! I think I'll give it a shot.

[canuck]

I am a rail fan as well, but very realistic when it comes to the costs involved with passenger rail.

I am not sure about the relative costs of air to rail travel. There are a lot of hidden subsidies and heavy lobbying on the part of airlines to prop their industry up. In Canada the aerospace industry benefits also from building and overhaul of aircraft and so they lobby hard to stay in the game. Bombardier, a major canadian player builds trains, but the Montreal HQ is pushing its aeronautics interests whereas the rail transport unit is based in Berlin. Porter airlines in Toronto has grown tremendously in the past 5 years using turboprops built by Bombardier in Toronto. Of course high speed rail needs its own dedicated lines which involves huge costs. Via rail uses CN or CP right-of-way which makes things even more complex. In Montreal Metro, the AMT commuter trains are almost all on CN tracks except for a new eastern extension.

I think North Americans need to travel by air for obvious reasons, but it would be wise to invest in alternative options for all the right reasons. I think aircraft need as much if not more people to make things happen by the way. Did you ever look at the number of support crew at an airport?
Montreal has Pratt and Whitney and Rolls Royce overhaul facilities where jet motors are taken apart every ten years or so at a cost of 8 or 900,000 dollars per engine. There are other systems checks and repairs to do and the grounding of a single plane for an extra day at any big airport is in the 3000$ range if it doesnt pass muster. Aircraft are expensive toys.

[Hermod]

I think North Americans need to travel by air for obvious reasons, but it would be wise to invest in alternative options for all the right reasons. I think aircraft need as much if not more people to make things happen by the way. Did you ever look at the number of support crew at an airport?

Based on what I saw when visiting Lausanne, Switzerland, a train station with the number of daily departures and arrivals like an airport ha a large support staff as well.

An active AMTRAK station with a single train each way also requires a minimum staff just to sell tickets and meet the train.