Cigarette laws in Detroit/Michigan

[Wingnatic]

I'm a smoker , not against the ban , smoke in the casino's bother me as well . What I'd like to see is lets have more taxes on beer , wine , liquor . Lets share the wealth ........... I mean sin taxes

[ferntruth]

I don't smoke and never have.

BUT any reasonably perceptive person can look at this thread, and notice many of the anti-smoking [[or pro-ban posters) posters are driven by emotion. I don't know where that comes from. It may be a superiority thing... a way for non-smokers to distinguish themselves from smokers and label themselves somehow better; I understand that impulse. Smoking is not wise so, sure, non-smokers like myself can claim to be more enlightened. But, that seems so petty and NOT the issue.

R8RBOB, you admit you smoked for 17 years or something, and your current level of disgust at smokers is almost comical. Listen, I have never smoked, but I know it doesn't smell THAT bad. Perhaps, it is bothersome if you had a traumatic experience you associate with smoking, or if you have allergies [[I hadn't considered that).

But come on! One poster here even expressed malicious glee at these 'investigative journalists' getting some blue collar bar in trouble for not enforcing the ban. What is happening to free enterprise in this country. I had no idea people had such extreme positions.

I prefer to NOT be around smoking, but of course it is a win-win to allow businesses to pay extra for a smoking permit. Unless, you have some reactionary urge/superiority complex that is a no-brainer.

Also, why do people keep saying "the people spoke" or "we arrived at this after much public debate" or "it would have passed if we could vote on it" etc.

I, for one, want as much democracy as possible. Why not allow the people to vote?

And lastly, does anyone know ANYONE who has died of 2nd hand smoke? hmmm

Yes, my mother-in-law. Never smoked a day in her life, but she lived with my father-in-law who smoked both cigarettes and cigars. She contracted and died of LUNG CANCER, which the Doctors indicated was a result of inhaling second hand smoke for decades. So as it turns out, I [[and now you) do know of SOMEONE who has died as a result of second hand smoke. hmmmmmm.

[ferntruth]

Now that is fantastically funny!!! I am going to be against getting a smoking permit and making more money at my bar on principle? Maybe you have never run a business but people run them to make MONEY. You should take a poll of bar owners in the area about the whole smoking permit issue and see what they say.

Bar A-has a smoking permit

next door

Bar B-does not have a smoking permit

Which one will have more business?

The above example is why we don't allow bars to voluntarily go smoke-free--There will be a pansy and two anti-smoking Nazis at bar B "saying how come everyone is at Bar A?"

It is more prevalent in California where you can smoke on a patio/deck at the bar [[oh my god secondhand smoke outside for shame!). The patio is rocking and packed with people and the inside is pretty tame. Why? Because people that smoke tend to drink more than people that don't smoke thus you have a packed patio and the inside of a bar with DB"s looking out and saying [[insert lisp) "I would never go out there just way too smoky, the smell of disinfectant and two day old puke is much better in here".

So now the law makes us all the DB"s on the inside of the bar in California.

Nice job of displaying your homophobia on a thread completely unrelated to Gay people or issues. So all non-smokers [[and those who choose to breathe clean air) are pansys? I think you have some sexuality issues you may want to examine more closely..

..pardon the threadjacking everyone.

[R8RBOB]

Nice job of displaying your homophobia on a thread completely unrelated to Gay people or issues. So all non-smokers [[and those who choose to breathe clean air) are pansys? I think you have some sexuality issues you may want to examine more closely..

..pardon the threadjacking everyone.

ferntruth, you have excuse lincoln. He is one of those guys who just have to rub someone the wrong way. If you notice he uses his postings to attack others because he just want someone to notice him.

[checkraisej]

Like I said, most chronic smokers do not make it past their 80th birthday.

Most people don't make it to their 80th birthday whether they're smokers or not.

[jerrytimes]

To the people that agree with the law, do you also agree that everything that endangers someones life should be banned? Drinking, the biggest, fastest killer of innocent people should be banned then! At least with smoking if it kills you, you at least get to live a while, but if a drunk driver hits you, you're usually either brutally injured or instantly killed. What's the difference. Fast food. That shortens peoples life that eat it daily. Ban that please! The thing is that non smokers have always had the right to not do places where people smoke and businessmen have always had the right to not allow smoking in their establishments. You might not think that it's not a big deal that these rights have been taken away from the American people, but it is a VERY big deal.

[wolverine]

To the people that agree with the law, do you also agree that everything that endangers someones life should be banned?

Certainly not, and it's definitely a valid argument against the ban. But it was a convenient reason to ban smoking anyway for the benefit of the majority of people out there [[including myself)

[george_babbage]

To the people that agree with the law, do you also agree that everything that endangers someones life should be banned? Drinking, the biggest, fastest killer of innocent people should be banned then!

Uh, already banned -- drinking and driving is illegal. And more people die every year due to second-hand smoke than alcohol-related crashes.

At least with smoking if it kills you, you at least get to live a while, but if a drunk driver hits you, you're usually either brutally injured or instantly killed. What's the difference.

???????

Fast food. That shortens peoples life that eat it daily. Ban that please!

I don't have to breathe someone's White Castle, until it makes its way through their system that is. And smoking hasn't been banned. It is still legal, and needs to stay that way. We need your tax money.

The thing is that non smokers have always had the right to not do places where people smoke and businessmen have always had the right to not allow smoking in their establishments.

And now they don't. And the vast majority gets its smoke-free air back. Fifty years from now people will look back on smoking in bars and restaurants and think it's as crazy as allowing smoking on airplanes or in hospitals [[which used to be allowed).

You might not think that it's not a big deal that these rights have been taken away from the American people, but it is a VERY big deal.

Oh I think it's a big deal. But I tend to think of it as rights being given to the suffering majority.

[Wingnatic]

I think that because Michigan needs the cash , they should place a ''sin tax'' on all beer , wine , and liquor to a level equal to the ''sin tax'' on smokes . I don't drink so it won't affect me , and maybe people would quit drinking and the roads will be alittle safer for me and others , and those people that quit drinking may get healthier .

[milesdriven]

I put my money [[well, actually my employer's money) where my mouth is, stayed last night in a hotel in Indiana instead of Michigan. I don't know why Michigan would institute a hotel room ban when no other state that I'm aware of has one. I see a hotel room as a rented dwelling, not a public area. Since the ban was enacted, my employer has spent thousands of dollars on hotel rooms in Indiana that would've been spent in Michigan, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[Detroitnerd]

Well, I had a good night at the bars last night. Went to three different bars and, at some point, somebody lit up in every bar. And nobody complained. Gotta love how effective this new law is. Apparently, observance of the law is inversely proportional to the temperature outside. Hahaha...

[R8RBOB]

Well, I had a good night at the bars last night. Went to three different bars and, at some point, somebody lit up in every bar. And nobody complained. Gotta love how effective this new law is. Apparently, observance of the law is inversely proportional to the temperature outside. Hahaha...

I wouldn't worry about it because they will get busted in time. I too was in the bar last night and yes there were those were smoking and luckily they all left because two Detroit firemen came into the joint and had the workers feeling a bit uneasy. Not sure if they doing an inspection or not but it was at 8PM so who knows.

[Detroitnerd]

Heck, I wouldn't worry. As a rule, generally, the more cops patronize a bar, the more smoking there is.

[Fury13]

...but I know it doesn't smell THAT bad.

Ummm, yeah, it DOES.

[george_babbage]

Well, I had a good night at the bars last night. Went to three different bars and, at some point, somebody lit up in every bar. And nobody complained. Gotta love how effective this new law is. Apparently, observance of the law is inversely proportional to the temperature outside. Hahaha...

The man ain't gonna keep you down!

[hogz]

ferntruth, my condolences... I had simply never heard of such a thing, but you obviously know of the dangers of second hand smoke first hand. I feel for you and your mother-in-law... What a tragic story. She must of loved your father-in-law, but in the end that love lead to her demise.

I didn't pose that question to be rude. I had really never heard of such a thing, but you have convinced me otherwise. I'm the kind of person whose mind can, indeed, be changed through the course of a discussion. I like it when someone can change my opinion. It is a learning experience.

george_babbage, I asked if anyone 'knew anyone who had died of second-hand smoke', and NOT if anyone knew of any media about dying from second hand smoke. I'm well aware there are billboards, articles, PSAs, commercials etc. I think you missed my point, but ferntruth has supplied an example.

I had a physical today, and actually asked my MD about second hand smoke completely because of this thread. This was before seeing ferntruth's post by the way.

His response was "everyone in the medical community knows these warnings are overblown, but none of us care." He talked about the dangers of smoking, and went on to say that occasionally someone maybe dies from second hand smoke, but that "99.9% of the time their time here was very limited anyway". He explained that the people it would effect were generally born with some sort of auto-immune or pulmonary disorder causing them to be extra sensitive to pollutants, and as such if second hand smoke didn't kill them "car exhaust, city pollution or generally living" would do it.

R8RBOB, your well water 'analogy' just means people shouldn't tax/pay for things that weren't always taxed or paid for. In that case we should have taxes at all, Because they weren't always there.

Also R8RBOB, your idea that I don't recognize we elect lawmakers who speak for us is wrong. I said "I want as much democracy as possible." Direct democracy is, indeed, MORE democracy than representational democracy.

There are civics/american government courses that non-students or older folks can enroll in at community colleges etc.

george_babbage, I'm not AT ALL persuaded by Lowell's post. Saying the majority support it, or it would have passed is meaningless. In that case, why don't we just poll 100 people for every election instead of actually allowing voting?

[R8RBOB]

ferntruth, my condolences... I had simply never heard of such a thing, but you obviously know of the dangers of second hand smoke first hand. I feel for you and your mother-in-law... What a tragic story. She must of loved your father-in-law, but in the end that love lead to her demise.

I didn't pose that question to be rude. I had really never heard of such a thing, but you have convinced me otherwise. I'm the kind of person whose mind can, indeed, be changed through the course of a discussion. I like it when someone can change my opinion. It is a learning experience.

george_babbage, I asked if anyone 'knew anyone who had died of second-hand smoke', and NOT if anyone knew of any media about dying from second hand smoke. I'm well aware there are billboards, articles, PSAs, commercials etc. I think you missed my point, but ferntruth has supplied an example.

I had a physical today, and actually asked my MD about second hand smoke completely because of this thread. This was before seeing ferntruth's post by the way.

His response was "everyone in the medical community knows these warnings are overblown, but none of us care." He talked about the dangers of smoking, and went on to say that occasionally someone maybe dies from second hand smoke, but that "99.9% of the time their time here was very limited anyway". He explained that the people it would effect were generally born with some sort of auto-immune or pulmonary disorder causing them to be extra sensitive to pollutants, and as such if second hand smoke didn't kill them "car exhaust, city pollution or generally living" would do it.

R8RBOB, your well water 'analogy' just means people shouldn't tax/pay for things that weren't always taxed or paid for. In that case we should have taxes at all, Because they weren't always there.

Also R8RBOB, your idea that I don't recognize we elect lawmakers who speak for us is wrong. I said "I want as much democracy as possible." Direct democracy is, indeed, MORE democracy than representational democracy.

There are civics/american government courses that non-students or older folks can enroll in at community colleges etc.

george_babbage, I'm not AT ALL persuaded by Lowell's post. Saying the majority support it, or it would have passed is meaningless. In that case, why don't we just poll 100 people for every election instead of actually allowing voting?

Mr. hogz, sorry but I have to be evil here because we are debating about nothing. The ban is in force and if a smoker has a problem, too fucking bad. I don't feel sorry that a smoker has to go outside. When I lived in Cali and I was still smoking I had to go outside and smoke and didn't bitch about it. It's the law. Sucks, but it is what it is.

to Detroitnerd, an update. I went back to the bar I was at last night and it was like night and day. Whatever DFD said when they made that surprise visit got the bar folk to keep the plastic cups off the bar and the table. Now I imagine they will go back to business as usual but they know that if they get too much offenses they are putting their liquor license in jeopardy. I don't think they want to lose that over a few smokers.

[george_babbage]

george_babbage, I'm not AT ALL persuaded by Lowell's post. Saying the majority support it, or it would have passed is meaningless. In that case, why don't we just poll 100 people for every election instead of actually allowing voting?

I think a smoking ban would have crushed if it made it to the ballot, but we'll never know for sure. My guess is the casinos are glad for that. But maybe the measure would have failed.

[hogz]

R8RBOB, I agree it is no hardship for smokers to go outside and I don't feel sorry for them either.

george_babbage, I agree casinos are happy about the situation, and if I had to guess I'd say the smoking ban would have passed if people could have voted on the measure.

I also think the people SHOULD HAVE had the opportunity to vote on it.

[reddog289]

Good thing I get boted of then net in 3 min. I would tell you what A JOKE the smoking ban is in my eyes.

[sumas]

Back at atcha Lowell, I like you too. But free enterprise and free speech should go hand in hand.

This smoking discussion is actually a bit boring. It is the law and I am law abiding within certain confines. As mentioned, know of places that ignore those rules.

[jerrytimes]

I think a smoking ban would have crushed if it made it to the ballot, but we'll never know for sure. My guess is the casinos are glad for that. But maybe the measure would have failed.

If this law would have been enacted by a vote, then I would have absolutely no problem with it.

[Augustiner]

This smoking discussion is actually a bit boring.

I'm so glad someone finally noticed. It only took three pages, five days, and almost 150 posts.

[reddog289]

The whole smoking ban law to me is just another feel good, look what we are doing for your health and safety, blow smoke up your butt law. But it is a conversation starter at the Bars I go to. I agree after countless threads about this ban it is like beating the dead horse.
Who knows what will happen with this law.But as most laws go they will be broken as they already are.

[Zacha341]

Yeah, the 'after-hour' joints that allow drinking after 2 AM are also allowing the smokers to do their thing I would imagine!

The whole smoking ban law to me is just another feel good, look what we are doing for your health and safety, blow smoke up your butt law. But it is a conversation starter at the Bars I go to. I agree after countless threads about this ban it is like beating the dead horse.
Who knows what will happen with this law.But as most laws go they will be broken as they already are.