Detroit, Population 2,000,000?

[reddog289]

I was just counting the number of schools in my 1967/68 Detroit Public School Directory. It numbered 325+. Seeing that number I could see a city with close to 2 million people.
As for people living close to factories. Back in the 20's cars were still a luxury and it was not always possible to use the streetcar. Now there are stricter laws when enforced that could have industry coexisting with residential, As well as agricultural.
Needless to say Close to 2 million or 2 million is 50 plus years past and I belive not likely in the next 50 years.

[Magnatomicflux]

.
As for people living close to factories. Back in the 20's cars were still a luxury and it was not always possible to use the streetcar. Now there are stricter laws when enforced that could have industry coexisting with residential, As well as agricultural.
.

Ah.....another good point. Thanks.

[johnny1954]

Not sure what will stop the violence in Detroit. Jobs might help, but during the 1990s-2006 period the violence did not stop even when the economy was huming along.
Detroit is going to need more than its own people to fix this mess. I just do not see the region, state or federal peoples wishing to step foot into the swamp.

[johnny1954]

Look at this, Toronto is one of the safest cities in North America, homicide rate 3.3 per 100,000 people. Compare this to Detroit: 33.8 per 100,000 people.
Also, Toronto has a very active orgainzed crime life, something which Detroit lost years ago.

I made mention of this interesting observation in another post. Organized crime may be the answer to reducing the overall crime rate.

[Magnatomicflux]

Look at this, Toronto is one of the safest cities in North America, homicide rate 3.3 per 100,000 people. Compare this to Detroit: 33.8 per 100,000 people.
Also, Toronto has a very active orgainzed crime life, something which Detroit lost years ago.

I made mention of this interesting observation in another post. Organized crime may be the answer to reducing the overall crime rate.

Well..........I didn't say they had good aim

[BrushStart]

Can anyone recommend any sociological/psychological studies done on violence in Detroit? I'm sure everyone has an opinion- single-parent homes, lack of economic opportunity, drug abuse, lack of pf positive role models, etc. but, I wonder if any researcher has really investigated the causes that have led to this perfect storm of violence. So many of the shootings are unprovoked, and totally senseless. In August, there was a young guy shot and killed for his sunglasses with tons of people around. That is just crazy. I mean, getting robbed is one thing, but what kind of criminal takes that kind of risk to steal a pair of glasses? He's risking a sentence of life without parole for a few hundred dollars. It makes me think that these kinds of offenders not only don't value the lives of others, but also do not value their own. We need to know the causes for this psychological breakdown before the problem can be addressed.

[johnny1954]

Organized crime may actually keep the lowlifes in line and under control. No one gets wacked unless the "boss" gives the order. Petty street battles are contained by the gangs themselves. Detroit had nearly all of its big organized crime families wiped out by the government.

[johnny1954]

This is Canada's definition of crime getting "crazy" a homicide rate of 3.9 per 100,000 people in 1991 in Toronto. Clearly, no comparison to any city in America or Detroit for that matter.

[reddog289]

Not having been to Canada in over 3 years, Can say I felt safer on that side of the bridge as compared to the way I sometimes feel while in Detroit.I have a cousin who lives in Stoffville?. He grew up here, went to Lutheran West,Graduated rom Wayne State. He will offer his thoughts.
Toronto is a whole different ballgame as compared to Detroit.Sadly to say when I was in Canada last it was in Windsor and it was not the Windsor I grew up with.But this is after 9/11 and I can say I really have no reason to hang around Windsor, Seeing the places where "2 mllion" people once lived in the condition that is in, and not having to go through customs is enuff for me.

[Magnatomicflux]

This is Canada's definition of crime getting "crazy" a homicide rate of 3.9 per 100,000 people in 1991 in Toronto. Clearly, no comparison to any city in America or Detroit for that matter.

Well, that's my definition of getting "crazy" for a Canadian city. I'm not quite sure if I'm supposed to read that as a criticizm of my country or not though. I wouldn't think so, because you seem smart, and critcizing a people for not killing eachother day in and day out would be stupid, at best.
I agree, that it's nowhere near American cities. How is New York's so low? 6.3 p/100,000 in 2008? Is it just the pure size of the NYPD?


Here's a link though from the TPD, for the current year up to October.
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/statistics/ytd_stats.php

Like I said......recently it seemed like gun crimes were happening more and more on the news, and those arn't being counted on this report. Gun crimes don't have to include death. That's all I was trying to say...more shootings.

I have nothing more to offer though on Toronto. It's pretty clear that's it's not comparable.

[slick]

1967/68 Detroit Public School Directory. It numbered 325+.

and don't forget all the Parochial schools which began closing about that time.

Look at the photos on the Non Detroit section of Chicago. 3 Million people in the city, 12 million in Chicagoland. I visited Chicag a few weeks back and Michigan avenue reminded me of Woodward when I was a youngster [[mid 50's) the crowds crossing the street was a mob scene.

All the vacant neighborhoods were mainly 2 family flats, with large families.
Those were the days!

[blackmath]

Well, that's my definition of getting "crazy" for a Canadian city. I'm not quite sure if I'm supposed to read that as a criticizm of my country or not though. I wouldn't think so, because you seem smart, and critcizing a people for not killing eachother day in and day out would be stupid, at best.
I agree, that it's nowhere near American cities. How is New York's so low? 6.3 p/100,000 in 2008? Is it just the pure size of the NYPD?


Here's a link though from the TPD, for the current year up to October.
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/statistics/ytd_stats.php

Like I said......recently it seemed like gun crimes were happening more and more on the news, and those arn't being counted on this report. Gun crimes don't have to include death. That's all I was trying to say...more shootings.

I have nothing more to offer though on Toronto. It's pretty clear that's it's not comparable.

New York's crime is so low mainly due to two factors and the slow down/abatement of the crack epidemic of the 80s and early 90s.

Factor 1 - CompStat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CompStat -- a sort of crime statistics program that highlights areas of concern, etc.

Factor 2 - The "broken windows theory". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixing_Broken_Windows -- making quality of life issues a very serious and important focus of the police department through strict, zero tolerance enforcement.

Here's a list from the first wiki article I linked that shows other factors that helped NYC have about the same per capita crime rate as Provo, Utah.


The training and deployment of around 5,000 new better-educated police officers
The integration of New York's housing and transit police into the New York Police Department
Police decision-making being devolved to precinct level
The clearing of a backlog of 50,000 unserved warrants
Robust "zero tolerance" campaign against petty crime and anti-social behavior under Giuliani and Bill Bratton
Widespread removal of graffiti
Programs that moved over 500,000 people into jobs from welfare at a time of economic buoyancy
Offering housing vouchers to enable poor families to move to better neighborhoods.
Demographic changes including a generation raised in the social welfare systems started in the 1970s and 1980s.
End of the crack epidemic and a shift to a marijuana-based drug economy with a larger consumer base and less competition.
Advances in medicine play a role in the declining number of homicides.
Gentrification, displacement of lower income individuals more likely to commit crimes from gentrifying or gentrified communities.

I realize that New York and Detroit are very, very different cities, but perhaps some of these initiatives could work?

[Detroitnerd]

New York's crime is so low mainly due to two factors and the slow down/abatement of the crack epidemic of the 80s and early 90s.

Factor 1 - CompStat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CompStat -- a sort of crime statistics program that highlights areas of concern, etc.

Factor 2 - The "broken windows theory". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixing_Broken_Windows -- making quality of life issues a very serious and important focus of the police department through strict, zero tolerance enforcement.

Here's a list from the first wiki article I linked that shows other factors that helped NYC have about the same per capita crime rate as Provo, Utah.


The training and deployment of around 5,000 new better-educated police officers
The integration of New York's housing and transit police into the New York Police Department
Police decision-making being devolved to precinct level
The clearing of a backlog of 50,000 unserved warrants
Robust "zero tolerance" campaign against petty crime and anti-social behavior under Giuliani and Bill Bratton
Widespread removal of graffiti
Programs that moved over 500,000 people into jobs from welfare at a time of economic buoyancy
Offering housing vouchers to enable poor families to move to better neighborhoods.
Demographic changes including a generation raised in the social welfare systems started in the 1970s and 1980s.
End of the crack epidemic and a shift to a marijuana-based drug economy with a larger consumer base and less competition.
Advances in medicine play a role in the declining number of homicides.
Gentrification, displacement of lower income individuals more likely to commit crimes from gentrifying or gentrified communities.

I realize that New York and Detroit are very, very different cities, but perhaps some of these initiatives could work?

I would warn you against emulating Giuliani time. What happened there was poverty and crime weren't eradicated; they were moved and concentrated in other areas.

As for kicking a half-million people off welfare, that was awful. Lots of people in the know developed a plan: Job training, education, substance abuse counseling, day care, etc. -- and moving people to work. They dumped all the good stuff and just handed people a mop and a bucket -- and used them to intimidate and harass the public sector unions.

But you'll never hear that from anybody starry-eyed over Giuliani's "success stories." Caveat emptor.

[Detroitnerd]

During World War II, Detroit was often described as a city with 3 million people crowded in and around it. I was under the impression that Detroit reached its peak population between 1944 and 1951, and that it was 2.1 million in the city proper. This is from long-ago reading, though ...

[Hermod]

During World War II, Detroit was often described as a city with 3 million people crowded in and around it. I was under the impression that Detroit reached its peak population between 1944 and 1951, and that it was 2.1 million in the city proper. This is from long-ago reading, though ...

The 1950 census was 1.8+ million [[5th largest in the nation).

It may have reached a 2 mill estimate in the 53-54 time frame.

While there were a number of truly rich people in Detroit, the real secret was the upper middle class wages of the UAW workers [[the princes of labor). That is what drove Detroit's prosperity [[and the anger of the rest of the county having to pay ever increasing amonts for a new car).

[Detroitnerd]

I remember reading Betty Smith's "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn," and she makes kind of a crack at the end, talking about how her dense neighborhood, full of poor families, was a lively place, and how the projects that gradually replaced them were clinically designed to give residents the scientifically determined minimums of green and light to sustain them.

Let's face it: Projects were built to house poor people. They get rid of the street where you can run a store, limiting opportunity. They have small porches and few gathering spots, limiting community. They even cut down the trees so the choppers can chase residents more easily.

[Hermod]

Let's face it: Projects were built to house poor people. They get rid of the street where you can run a store, limiting opportunity. They have small porches and few gathering spots, limiting community. They even cut down the trees so the choppers can chase residents more easily.

Ummmm, during the heyday of housing project construction, how many police departments owned choppers?

[Detroitnerd]

Ummmm, during the heyday of housing project construction, how many police departments owned choppers?

I should have written that more carefully. Later on, when there were choppers to chase people from the air, they chopped down the trees in a lot of projects to aid in arresting the people who lived there. Ask, and ye shall receive, Hermod.