Question about the burbs...sorta

[jerrytimes]

So I live in the suburbs of Detroit. I'd love to live in Detroit, but with the crime and lack of business that open in the city in many areas that isn't going to happen.

Personally I feel that Detroit has wasted away for many reasons, one being that the suburban area of Detroit just seems to build and build farther and farther away from the city. Detroit has this problem that when something in the city gets old, it doesn't get repaired or replaced in the city, it gets replaced, but in the suburbs. You own a large buisiness and your buildings a pile of crap in the city because you have been located there 80 years???? No problem, just move to the burbs! I know that this is not the only problem that Detroit has, and it's not the only reason that business leaves the city, but we seem to have this problem around here that things must continue to move north. It should be stopped.

[NorthofNormal]

But, why wouldn't a business move from the city to a suburb if they think it's better for them? You said yourself: you won't live in the city. If someone wants to sell you widgets or serve you breakfast, they are going to go where you are.

I'm not blaming you--there's a lot of valid reasons that a person wouldn't want to live in Detroit. I think the city is turning a corner, and there are more and more reasons why a person would want to live in the city. The hope is, as more people move back in, it starts to snowball. New businesses spring up to serve them, which in turn attracts more people, and so on. It won't happen overnight, but over time.

Also worth noting, though, are the ways that government has subsidized sprawl. As the economy stagnates, this will likely dry up--the funding for new roads/city infrastructure out to more remote exurb subdivisions, the tax abatements, and things like that. Denser neighborhoods closer to an urban core are cheaper for everyone.

[Relayer76]

Also worth noting, though, are the ways that government has subsidized sprawl. As the economy stagnates, this will likely dry up--the funding for new roads/city infrastructure out to more remote exurb subdivisions, the tax abatements, and things like that. Denser neighborhoods closer to an urban core are cheaper for everyone.

I think you have hit the nail on the head with that statement Northofnormal. As a non Detroiter trying to figure out what the heck happened to Detroit, my thought was that there must be a major problem with the city government there. Seems to me that this exodus to the burbs could have been dealt with decades ago by the city refusing to provide services or grant zoning of land for the outward expansion. Of course, Detroit has been hit hard by the decline of the N.A. auto industry but I sure there are many cities throughout the world that have faced similar problems but I have never heard of a city that is hollowed out at the core like Detroit. Having lived in Toronto and Ottawa, I know that "maintaining a vibrant downtown" is a buzz phrase that I have been hearing for 40 years.

[BrushStart]

Having lived in Toronto and Ottawa, I know that "maintaining a vibrant downtown" is a buzz phrase that I have been hearing for 40 years.

A lot of people fail to realize that maintaining a vibrant downtown is a never-ending job. Many people still complain about the RenCen and how it failed to revitalize Detroit as was promised. The answer is not that the RenCen failed, it's that the RenCen wasn't enough. You don't just build one large project and expect it to carry you through the next 25 years. A RenCen-sized project must be built every single year, along with hundreds of smaller projects that spiff up and renew various corners of the city. Successful cities are constantly improving the facade, functionality, and accessibility of their downtowns, and they are usually rewarded with increased residents and development. Much of the problem is caused by the sponsors of these mega-projects themselves, who usually proclaim that "X project will be Detroit's big savior." While I'm sure they do this to garner support for their idea and to raise money, it sets them up for failure by creating unrealistic expectations. Over the years, a precedent has been set in Detroit, whereby most big projects have failed to live up their architect's promises of revitalization, so naturally, people have become progressively more and more disenfranchised with each new project announced. This is happening right now with talks about the M1 rail line. It has been so over-hyped as this big savior, and when it doesn't make Detroit as vibrant as it was in 1950, everyone will proclaim it a huge failure and denounce any future projects. People to need to approach Detroit's revitalization with the mindset that progress is incremental, and that big projects like M1 are only one piece of a larger puzzle, albeit, a significant piece.

[reddog289]

While I was eating at one of my favorite chain Bar&Grill type places the news was on, After the Football game. I had heard what had happened at Eastland Mall.This brings up another thing in my mind.
My parents were/are like many of the first generation of the Detroiters that lived threw the "Golden Era". Detroit by what I have seen was a great place to live back then.
My Mother went to Detroit Lutheran High School. Class of 1957. I would look thru her old yearbook and since her class was the last to graduate from the 2nd LHS location, They included a page about the opening of Lutheran High School West as well as East. West around Greenfield & Joy, East out in Harper Woods.
Detroit in itself has been around like 300 year, But in my mind only bout the last 100 has it been the Detroit we know.
Well both of them schools, Once new a little over 50 years ago are a memory.My Father and Step Father were Northwestern guys.While Mom is from the Macenzie area.
They all left the Old Neighborhood weather it was their jobs, marriage, or just to get some space.My friends ave been through this, And as long as my job is here, I am staying.
The only good thing about this bad economy is tha there is still farmland left between Canton and Ann Arbor, As for the northern burbs I can't say.

[Hermod]

The only good thing about this bad economy is tha there is still farmland left between Canton and Ann Arbor, As for the northern burbs I can't say.

I was up in the Detroit area the week before last [[illness in the family). Unlike much of the hyperbole stated on this forum, Oakland and Macomb counties have not been paved over.

You can still see the little towns like Waldenburg [[22 mile and Romeo Plank) with the old buildings still there and the farms interspersed with subdivisions and strip malls. I spent one evening in the Waldenburg Bar [[must date from the thirties) talking with a small crowd of people. It was just like the old neighborhood bars that once dotted the "D" to service the folks in their area. Lots of Reagan Democrats up there.

I wandered out to Gingellville [[near Great Lakes Crossing). Quite a few strip malls there now. Plenty of farm land and a few large subdivisions.

San Souci [[on Harsen's Island) is almost unchanged from the fifties.

Rochester looks the same downtown except that all the real stores have been replaced by trendy boutiques. The women there all walk around with their noses in the air [[unlike fifty years ago). Blame the arts, music, and culture crowds that move in with Oakland University [[I still refer to it as MSU-O just to put them down). I had lunch at Red Knapp's Dairy Bar. The only thing that has changed there since 1955 is the prices. I walked from one end of the town to the other and had a couple of beers at the Paint Creek Tavern which has rehabbed their rather tumble down building.

West of New Baltimore has been pretty much strip malled, but downtown NB is still there. Fair Haven and Anchorville are pretty much unchanged.

I drove through Troy. Big Beaver and the other section line roads have a lot of building on them, but on John R., I could still see houses that were there in 1959 when I worked on the city surveying crew. There are still a few farms in Troy as well.

North of Detroit is not solid subdivisions, but is still in the process of becoming.

[iheartthed]

Of course, Detroit has been hit hard by the decline of the N.A. auto industry but I sure there are many cities throughout the world that have faced similar problems but I have never heard of a city that is hollowed out at the core like Detroit. Having lived in Toronto and Ottawa, I know that "maintaining a vibrant downtown" is a buzz phrase that I have been hearing for 40 years.

Yeah, after living in different cities and traveling quite extensively, I have come to realize how much of an anomaly Detroit is currently. There really aren't many examples of major metropolitan areas in the world that have eroded from the core outward... Especially in such a short period of time. And Detroit is by far the largest one of that class of cities. St. Louis and Cleveland are the only cities off the top of my head that even come close in size, and even they are only a fraction the size of Detroit.

I was in Europe over the summer and I visited some cities that have existed for hundreds of years, in cases thousands of years, centered around the same area. They've gone through boom and bust economies, social unrest, wars and everything else, yet still remain centralized in the same location. Juxtapose that against metropolitan Detroit which seems to physically drift with each economic cycle.

Unfortunately, my faith is very limited that the leadership in Detroit/Michigan will ever figure out why Detroit is in such a situation. I was reading the diaries of the mayor's recent trip over to Italy, and it seems like he may finally get it. But not sure if that intelligence will carry over to Lansing, let alone to the other decision makers in the city and region.

[jerrytimes]

That's what I wish would happen. Stop the sprawl. I mean come on, we are past 30 mile road and still building while areas just go to waste in Detroit. Drives me nuts.

[DC48080]

That's what I wish would happen. Stop the sprawl. I mean come on, we are past 30 mile road and still building while areas just go to waste in Detroit. Drives me nuts.

If there wasn't a demand for it, they wouldn't build it. Most people do not want to live in the city of Detroit.

For those who do want to live in Detroit, more power to them. But that fact of the matter is that Detroit is not a desirable place to live for most people, especially if they have children. People have the freedom to live wherever they chose to as long as they have the means to do so.

[jerrytimes]

Yeah, but it would be if suburban sprawl wouldn't be so prominent around here. Other cities have this, but no where near as bad as Detroit. I simply want to live in Detroit so I can be closer to downtown, but I don't want to live in the city in the state that it is in right now.

[Buy American]

Yeah, but it would be if suburban sprawl wouldn't be so prominent around here. Other cities have this, but no where near as bad as Detroit. I simply want to live in Detroit so I can be closer to downtown, but I don't want to live in the city in the state that it is in right now.

No one wants to live in the City of Detroit right now. The crime rate is high, drug dealers, thugs and gangs roam the neighborhoods; neighborhoods are disappearing; taxes are high, response time to fires and shootings, break ins, robberies is low; City services are non-existent; City leaders are corrupt for the most part; schools are sub-par;....do you see any incentives there? Businesses move to suburbs for reasons like lower taxes; less theft; safer environment for you to shop in or do business with; carjackings are practically non existent.
Ordinary citizens will never move back into the City until its' cleaned up its' act...and right now, it doesn't look like much is being done to do that. Police and Fire is understaffed, equipment is falling apart, and there is no hope that this will be changing any time in the near future. If I were a young person with small children to raise, Detroit would be the last place I'd look to move into. Face it, the suburbs are safer.

[iheartthed]

It's because there is no land usage policy in the metropolitan area, other than what they implemented around Ann Arbor.

[ndavies]

So you made the decison to not move into the city and you want to stop other people from making the same decison?

The only thing that is going to stop the sprawl is people like you deciding to reverse the trend and move back to the city. There is no other solution. All the fancy rule making and incentives will not make one iota of difference until people just decide to move back.The crime rate is not going to improve, the buildings aren't going to get better, the schools won't get better, the taxes aren't going to get any lower, and the government is not going to improve until ordinary citizens decide it is time to move back and improve the city.

[DC48080]

What incentive do "ordinary citizens," when they are perfectly happy living where they are, have to move into Detroit? Answer: None.

[BrushStart]

I've reached the conclusion that a lot of people in the region have no desire to identify with Detroit. They do not have the city-centric mindset that is common in most cities. There is no desire to maintain history and legacy here. When's the last time you heard some proclaim with admiration that they're a "Detroiter." Outside of sports, there is little prideful attachment to Detroit. Almost every city in America has urban problems, but instead of battling back against these problems on their home turf, people here just abandon the entire area and move away. Some people will even move based on the rumor of such things. There is no fight to preserve our history here, just a whole lot of running away.

[DC48080]

There is no fight to preserve our history here, just a whole lot of running away.

It isn't about not wanting to preserve history, it is about locating your family and raising your children in a safe, nurturing and healthy environment. Trying to raise children in Detroit, if you have the means to do it elsewhere, is tantamount to child endangerment.

You have to choose your "fights" carefully. Some are not worth fighting.

[Zacha341]

Well stated....

It isn't about not wanting to preserve history, it is about locating your family and raising your children in a safe, nurturing and healthy environment. Trying to raise children in Detroit, if you have the means to do it elsewhere, is tantamount to child endangerment.

You have to choose your "fights" carefully. Some are not worth fighting.

[Buy American]

I've reached the conclusion that a lot of people in the region have no desire to identify with Detroit. They do not have the city-centric mindset that is common in most cities. There is no desire to maintain history and legacy here. When's the last time you heard some proclaim with admiration that they're a "Detroiter." Outside of sports, there is little prideful attachment to Detroit. Almost every city in America has urban problems, but instead of battling back against these problems on their home turf, people here just abandon the entire area and move away. Some people will even move based on the rumor of such things. There is no fight to preserve our history here, just a whole lot of running away.

I will proclaim it right now, I'm a Detroiter. Born, raised, educated in, worked for, married in, worshipped in, raised kids in, began educating my kids in, and fought for. I love the history of Detroit, loved the older buildings, homes and landmarks. I didn't leave the City in disarray [[I say that because most of the blame for the condition the city is in today is blamed on suburbanites and white flight) but it was evident that bad things were happening and I felt the need to leave for my family and their well-being.
I would still be there today, in the little three bedroom bungalow where four of us lived comfortably for 30 years and was paid for, except for the fact that the people who moved onto my once beautiful street didn't have the same "city-centric mindset" that I had. They were not interested in keeping the neighborhood as nice as it was when they came, let alone to preserve it's legacy or history. They were only interested in making sure my life, as well as most of the older, more established neighbors a living hell. Where our lawns were once manicured, they became parking lots and landfills. I used to be able to sit on our front porch but after listening to foul language, screaming and yelling at each other, boom box music and total disrespect from these people, I had to sequester myself inside and shut the doors and windows. Many of the homes that were spotless became inhabitable for most human beings, but not some.
You ask anyone who moved out of Detroit back in the late 70's, the 80's and 90's why they left and if they are honest, they will tell you the same thing.
Since Coleman Young was elected as Mayor in Detroit, the idea of preserving anything or designating a home as a historical landmark was forgotten.
I am a Detroiter and always will be, but I am saddened by what the City has become and the horrible reputation it has. It was a great place to live at one time....too bad it isn't today.

[BrushStart]

I know that there are many Detroiters who stayed and fought, but those that did are losing because of those who left. Everyone could have left NYC in the 80s when it was a total hellhole. Prostitutes, junkies and drug dealers on every corner. XXX shops lined Times Square, buildings were abandoned, windows were broken out and buildings were looted. Homeless people slept on the sidewalk and in doorways, etc. Some people did flee NYC, but most stayed, even though it was probably cheaper to move and the environment in the city was anything but glamorous like it is today. In Chicago, the city rioted too, the mayor called in the national guard to suppress the violence. Chicago has gangs and crime, crippling poverty, poor schools, etc. Chicago's crime was so bad that they stopped reporting to the FBI for statistical purposes because they wanted to save face. And while some people left for Chicago's suburbs, most people stayed. In contrast, almost everyone in Detroit left at the first sign of problems. Only a handful stayed and fought for their neighborhoods. Those who left made it hard for those who stayed to continue to fight and succeed.

The worst part is, this hasn't stopped. Nothing's changed. The inner-ring suburbs are being abandoned by the same people who initially fled Detroit. Those people are on run north and west, further out to into the prairie. Instead of staying and defending their neighborhood, their house, their playgrounds, schools, family, neighbors, and friends, they just run away. That's why they can't take pride in a place, because they never stay long enough to build a history. Instead of confronting problems, they don't want to be bothered, so they just flee and then point their fingers. Some will even chastise those who decided to say and try and preserve their way of life.

[Carey]

Buy American: I think anyone who once lived in Detroit can identify with your frustration and sadness.I feel your pain. But your anger leads you to make some wild charges that don't hold up to any sort of scrutiny.
Detroit's white population dropped by more than 350,000 in the 50s, and continued to drop in the 60s, especially after the riot. Coleman You didn't take office until 1974, when white flight, the crime rate, joblessness and all sorts of patholgies had been growing for more than 20 years. Plenty of things have been preserved since Coleman Young became mayor, and any good things have happened in general, even though the city has continued to decline and decay overall.
And you say no one wants to move into Detroit these days. That's not true, either. Midtown, downtown, southwest Detroit, Corktown and probably other neighborhoods have noticeable numbers of new residents. Many of them are young, white end educated. This trend was recently cited in the a release from the Census Bureau. Are more people moving out than moving in? Definitely.Are your critiques about the understaffing in public safety accurate? Definitely. Is Detroit in terrible shape overall? Definitely.
But it's a big city. Many things happen at once. Like it has for a half century, Detroit both declines and improves simultaneously, though the decline still outweighs the improvements.

[Buy American]

Detroit isn't just Midtown, Corktown, downtown or Southwest Detroit. I didn't live in those areas when I did live there. I lived on the lower east side while growing up and attending school...as did my parents and my grandparents did. I would guess my entire family arrived in Detroit around the late 1990's, so I feel qualified to speak about Detroit. To blame people for leaving Detroit is being unfair.
I don't know a thing about NYC or Chicago for that matter, but I do know about my experience while living in Detroit. I can only speak from what I've lived through and saw with my own eyes.

"The inner-ring suburbs are being abandoned by the same people who initially fled Detroit."
Can anyone answer this statement.

[DetroitPole]

To the usual gang of idiots:

Many people chose to live in Detroit. I am one of them. I am not "no one."

There is something in between living in Detroit and living past 30 Mile road, as the initial poster has alluded to. No, you don't need to live in Detroit, but in case you haven't noticed, we have plenty of room in the existing suburbs and our population has not grown in 30 years.

[mwilbert]

Aside from not appearing to be a question, the original post didn't really seem to be about why people left Detroit, but rather a suggestion that the continued outward sprawl of the region [[despite negligible population growth) is undesirable.

I completely agree with this, but it seems to me that Southeast Michigan has no effective regional plan or planning body, hence essentially no rules. Given no rules, road-focused transportation funding, and no physical barriers, sprawl is what happens everywhere. Even where you have strong planning and more balanced transportation approaches, it is still very hard to stop sprawl, but in southeast Michigan it is pretty much hopeless.

My guess is that if it is stopped, it will be because we realize that we don't want to spend the money to build and maintain more infrastructure for fewer people, but you can expect an awful lot of gnashing of teeth before that premise is generally accepted. Michigan's rapid transformation from a relatively rich to a relatively poor state means we can't afford to be as stupid as we have been traditionally, but I doubt it has increased our collective intelligence.

[canuck]

Aside from not appearing to be a question, the original post didn't really seem to be about why people left Detroit, but rather a suggestion that the continued outward sprawl of the region [[despite negligible population growth) is undesirable.

I completely agree with this, but it seems to me that Southeast Michigan has no effective regional plan or planning body, hence essentially no rules. Given no rules, road-focused transportation funding, and no physical barriers, sprawl is what happens everywhere. Even where you have strong planning and more balanced transportation approaches, it is still very hard to stop sprawl, but in southeast Michigan it is pretty much hopeless.

My guess is that if it is stopped, it will be because we realize that we don't want to spend the money to build and maintain more infrastructure for fewer people, but you can expect an awful lot of gnashing of teeth before that premise is generally accepted. Michigan's rapid transformation from a relatively rich to a relatively poor state means we can't afford to be as stupid as we have been traditionally, but I doubt it has increased our collective intelligence.

Now that Michigan has become poorer, will the same impulse to find greener grass result in a massive exodus to other states? Excuse my ignorance and maybe arrogance in stating this, but as you say; isnt there a concentrated effect of the Go West Young Man, in SEM that seeks to not only start anew, but equally to negate one's past. I also find the mythical motifs of US mobility, of a people on the move are alive and well in Detroit. In spite of the romance of automobility, for many, polish, irish, lithuanian; work on the assembly line was something to escape, when conditions got better, a move to a bigger house was deemed essential. For a black family that came from an agrarian south, this move to greener pastures, Detroit was a way out also. Then as opportunities grew in a relatively reasoned way for that same black family; a possible equality of means and peace was envisioned. But nothing was more uncertain than this balancing act for black families wishing to integrate american life. The abandonment of Detroit over the spread of several generations is pretty much the abandonment of Detroit as possible promised land for black people who emigrated here. They had abandoned a southern white hierarchy of expressed hatred for northern hypocrisy and indifference, and polite hatred. Still, it seems that black detroiters hold on to this dream of a great city. The physical erosion of the city has to do with abandonment rather than plain physical destruction. The downtown has a pattern of abandonment which is like Cleveland's and Cincinnati's and StLouis's and indicates racial ostracism pure and simple. So many fucked up opportunities. Also, when we hear this nobody lives in Detroit canto, we can think of other references to black inferiority such as White trash/Trailer trash monikers which refer to trash that happens to be white as opposed to black and needs some defining...

[grumpyoldlady]

As people leave Detroit, and move into the "inner ring" of suburbs, the crime, drugs, etc. move with them, so in X number of years, people won't want to live in Harper Woods, East Pointe, Warren, etc..., but will move farther out, and the cycle will continue. I have relatives who thought their Warren neighborhood would stay nice for many years......WRONG! It is gradually becoming just as bad as Detroit, so they are looking to move WAY out...into the Thumb, but NOT Port Huron..for the same reason.