Breaking News: Michigan Out of Money For Roads

[jt1]

Yeah go after the truck drivers and freight companies. Then watch prices skyrocket, truck driving jobs disappear, and the roads continue to crumble.

Great idea!

I see two things at play:

1. Lower the amount trucks can haul in Michigan so it is on par with other states. technically this would creates jobs since more trucks/runs would be required for the same amount of freight. It would also cause a significant impact in reducing the deteriation of roads [[Going from what I recall hearing, not a source so I may be wrong)

2. Make the diesel/gas tax closer to other states. There are a total of 8 states [[Plus DC) that charge less tax on diesel than on gasoline. Guess which one has the largest discrepancy. Michigan has the 6th lowest taxes on Diesel [[per gallon) in the country. So making things more equivalent to other states isn't punishing the freight companies/truck drivers. [[Source: http://www.michigangasprices.com/Tax_Info.aspx)

[Johnnny5]

Yeah go after the truck drivers and freight companies. Then watch prices skyrocket, truck driving jobs disappear, and the roads continue to crumble.

Great idea!

Unless there's a better suggestion floating around, I don't think there's a fairer option?

I'm all for taxing Mr.Winter and Jack Frost, but somehow I don't think that's feasible. The next biggest culprit in damaging our roads is the trucking industry. They have a sweetheart deal in Michigan where they are allowed to haul far more weight than in any other state. If our crumbling roads make a tax increase a necessity then it should be directed at those who benefit the most, yet are paying the least.

[ndavies]

One ongoing part of the problem is the improving Vehicle efficiency. As new cars get better Fuel economy, we are paying less into the fund to keep up the roads. Fuel taxes will have to rise just to keep even with the increasing fuel economy. All those wonderful new electric and hybrid vehicles are not paying their fair share of the road maintenance dollars either. If you were in a vehicle getting 20 MPG and now you're in a vehicle getting 40MPG you're paying half the taxes to go the same number of miles. If you're in an electric you aren't paying any fuel based taxes.

[Paddington]

I've yet to see a single road in Michigan that isn't absolute shit. One guy from Grand Rapids raved about how that side of the state was like a different country compared to the Detroit area. While the roads in Western Michigan were of higher quality compared to SE Michigan, they were still pretty shit compared to the average road in Ohio.

One thing I've noticed since living here is that you don't even feel like driving a new car or a nice car in Michigan, because the roads are so utterly shit. That speaks volumes about why American cars are the way they are.

[BrushStart]

The next biggest culprit in damaging our roads is the trucking industry. They have a sweetheart deal in Michigan where they are allowed to haul far more weight than in any other state. If our crumbling roads make a tax increase a necessity then it should be directed at those who benefit the most, yet are paying the least.

One word: Maroun.

[RO_Resident]

I've yet to see a single road in Michigan that isn't absolute shit. One guy from Grand Rapids raved about how that side of the state was like a different country compared to the Detroit area. While the roads in Western Michigan were of higher quality compared to SE Michigan, they were still pretty shit compared to the average road in Ohio.

You can see a map of statewide road conditions here:
http://tamc.mcgi.state.mi.us/MITRP/Data/paserMap.aspx

The trunklines in the Grand Rapids area are in better condition largely because MDOT built the roads in the 80's and 90's. Compare that to the freeways in the Detroit area that were built a decade or two earlier.

[Magnatomicflux]

Yeah go after the truck drivers and freight companies. Then watch prices skyrocket, truck driving jobs disappear, and the roads continue to crumble.

Great idea!

Meh......If we moved almost all long haul freight to rail, that then deliver cars to various TEAM tracks, you can have many, smaller, lighter stake trucks, with little to no loss in trucking jobs [[drivers can actually be home every night) who will deliver the goods from the TEAM tracks to market. Let's face it, nothing will ever beat the fuel economy of a train. A 2 man crew in one locomotive pulling 110 loaded cars will take 280 trucks off the road. On average a train can move 1 ton 475 miles on a single gallon of fuel.

I don't want to see drivers out of a job either, but rail is just better all the way around. For the environment, for the roads, and for public safety.

[Hermod]

Yeah go after the truck drivers and freight companies. Then watch prices skyrocket, truck driving jobs disappear, and the roads continue to crumble.

Great idea!

Yes, truck driver's jobs should disappear.

Trucks should exist only to move the container or semitrailer to and from loading docks and the nearest intermodal rail yard. All movement of the container or semitrailer over thirty miles should be on a rail car.

Unlike passenger rail, freight rail pays for itself [[and you can make a profit on a freight railroad).

[Detroitnerd]

Yes, truck driver's jobs should disappear.

Trucks should exist only to move the container or semitrailer to and from loading docks and the nearest intermodal rail yard. All movement of the container or semitrailer over thirty miles should be on a rail car.

Unlike passenger rail, freight rail pays for itself [[and you can make a profit on a freight railroad).

Mightn't that have a wee bit to do with all the giveaways the government gave to railroads in the 19th century? Just sayin'...

[JBMcB]

I think it's pretty amusing that Michigan spends on roads in a year what it would cost to build an actual subway line along Woodward Avenue... Yet they claim not to be able to afford the subway.

Sure, screw the four million people in the state who don't live anywhere near Detroit. Lousy roads and lack of train service is their punishment for not being awesome enough to live in Detroit.

[Magnatomicflux]

Mightn't that have a wee bit to do with all the giveaways the government gave to railroads in the 19th century? Just sayin'...

Absolutely.....but there weren't really any roads .......and trucks as we know them, didn't exist Railroads and trucks worked together just like Hermod suggests in the 19th with wagons, and in the early 20th with tractor trailers.
Then the gov made good roads which almost killed rail. Neat how things are coming full circle.

[DetroitDad]

No new news here, just more proof that car dependent suburbs are unsustainable.

[Detroitnerd]

Absolutely.....but there weren't really any roads .......and trucks as we know them, didn't exist Railroads and trucks worked together just like Hermod suggests in the 19th with wagons, and in the early 20th with tractor trailers.
Then the gov made good roads which almost killed rail. Neat how things are coming full circle.

While we're at it, let's please strive for balance. Let cars and trucks do well what they do best, within reason. Take personal vehicles off the road so small trucks and emergency vehicles and taxis and police cruisers can better do what they do best. My 2 cents.

[DetroitDad]

So is it time to get behind efficient free market transit like the M-1 Light Rail Line or the Ann Arbor to Detroit Heavy Rail Line yet, or are we still sticking with government subsidized mass motoring?

No doubt that it's true that most of us here in Michigan and Detroit have bought our last new car. With this [[subject) article in mind, even a small amount of Michiganians unable to drive or drive as much, will likely have significant affects on our ability to maintain our roads. Anyone who remembers the state of I-96 six or seven years ago will recognize that deteriorating roads have very negative affects on safety and repair costs. The costs of those damages and costs associated with increases in accidents [[insurance and healthcare costs, just to name two) could cause more drivers to be forced to drive less, making the problem into a downward spiral. Unfortunately, this downward spiral could not last long. Roads really need to be maintained pretty well to allow many smaller vehicles to navigate them.

As for larger vehicles... well I won't even get into the problems they bring to the table.

Why the next twenty years will be very different from the past twenty years.

I recently went through Chris Martenson's Crash Course. The video series has really helped me convey my theories and observations. My wife and family now agrees with me [[I usually just try to take a look from the opposing side, so this is rare). I recommend these very interesting and informative videos, the first of which is posted below. The rest of the videos can be found by clicking here.

PS: For those who suddenly find themselves essentially evicted from the mass motoring public, I too wonder how long people will be willing to subsidize a mode of transportation they can no longer afford or use. I wonder if we will still be able to afford sustainable free market based transit by then [[light rail, trains, etc.)

[iheartthed]

Sure, screw the four million people in the state who don't live anywhere near Detroit. Lousy roads and lack of train service is their punishment for not being awesome enough to live in Detroit.

Basically.

Or just use Detroit's $900M or so annual proportional share of the pot to do something other than building new roads to nowhere.

[Don K]

Mightn't that have a wee bit to do with all the giveaways the government gave to railroads in the 19th century? Just sayin'...

Aw, ferchrissakes, again with the "railroads got land grants back in the 1860's and 70's so they should give away their services forever" crap.

#1, every western railroad that depended on land grants to be built [[including the Union Pacific, Santa Fe, Northern Pacific, and Southern Pacific) went into bankruptcy in the 1800's, because the land grants caused them to overbuild.

#2, those railroads paid for that giveaway for the next hundred years by transporting mail at giveaway rates.

#3, railroads put up with more than 90 years of regulation by the ICC that didn't allow them enough profits to actually maintain their tracks and invest in improvements to improve reliability and speed for freight.

It's only in the last 30 years since deregulation that railroads have been able to make the investments [[overwhelmingly out of their own money) to make themselves competitive against trucks for non-commodity freight such as containers. Manufacturers [[like car companies and parts suppliers) and distributors care most about reliability. If you say you can get a trainload of stuff to Detroit in four days, it doesn't do them any good if train A takes four days and train B only takes three days - the second trainload will just sit around waiting to be unloaded. And if a trainload takes five or six days, that's a disaster, because the plant will sit around idle waiting for the parts. Railroads have finally figured this out, and that's why they're able to be competitive against trucks and make money doing it. It's down to good management and good investments, and not some 130-year-old subsidy.

But I agree more interstate freight ought to move by rail. I also think more passengers ought to move by rail, but that's another discussion. For too long Michigan has given truckers a sweetheart deal on road fees and weight limits, and that ought to stop. I'm tired of truckers pounding our roads into oblivion and not paying their share of the damage.

[Gistok]

I've yet to see a single road in Michigan that isn't absolute shit. One guy from Grand Rapids raved about how that side of the state was like a different country compared to the Detroit area. While the roads in Western Michigan were of higher quality compared to SE Michigan, they were still pretty shit compared to the average road in Ohio.

One thing I've noticed since living here is that you don't even feel like driving a new car or a nice car in Michigan, because the roads are so utterly shit. That speaks volumes about why American cars are the way they are.

Try driving I-94 in Macomb County.... smooth, new interchanges... excellent on and off ramps.... all newly refinished at the south end... it's a pleasure to drive on... Even I-696 in Macomb County is nice and driveable.. maybe you're just living in a shitty area?

But seriously... anyone driving north of 8 Mile on I-94 will IMMEDIATELY notice the improvement...

[lilpup]

Absolutely.....but there weren't really any roads .......and trucks as we know them, didn't exist Railroads and trucks worked together just like Hermod suggests in the 19th with wagons, and in the early 20th with tractor trailers.
Then the gov made good roads which almost killed rail. Neat how things are coming full circle.

The earliest constructed roads date back to 4000BC. The first road use of asphalt [[asphalt blocks) was in 1824 in Paris. New York City had asphalt roads by 1872. Even early electrical tramways had paved roadways and beds built for them. All this well before cars hit the marketplace.

[Hermod]

Mightn't that have a wee bit to do with all the giveaways the government gave to railroads in the 19th century? Just sayin'...

As I pointed out to you before, the government gave the railroads government-owned land in alternate sections to encourage the railroads to build tracks through the undeveloped areas of the USA. The government was repaid for this by the increase in value of the other government-owned land because of access to the railroad. The land was only worth something if it had access to transportation. Without the railroad, the land could only be used for subsistence farming. With the railroad, the farmers could grow cash crops. When the government sold the remaining 95% of the land, they reaped a much higher return. It sounds like a "win-win" to me.

[Magnatomicflux]

The earliest constructed roads date back to 4000BC. The first road use of asphalt [[asphalt blocks) was in 1824 in Paris. New York City had asphalt roads by 1872. Even early electrical tramways had paved roadways and beds built for them. All this well before cars hit the marketplace.

*sigh* I suppose I should have said something like "wern't many roads to speak of" meaning the few around were junk, but thanks for the history lesson About.com. You forgot to metion that New York only had two paved roads in 1872, so it doesn't really matter. Get outside New York, or anywhere beyond those two streets even, and they turn rutted muddy roads and then into wagon trails and cow paths at best.

Even early electrical tramways had paved roadways and beds built for them

I can almost garuntee you that in most situations anything outside the rails was mud. And that's probably why alot of these systems offered freight services, because pulling a loaded wagon thru muddy, wheel rutted roads sucked ass and took days as opposed to hours with a streetcar.
If there were reliable roads, they never would have spent the money or effort to dig out all those canals to move people and goods.