Our region's colleges put many students in debt.

**darwinism** · November-18-10, 07:39 PM

CCS, Lawrence Tech and Kettering share the unwanted distinction of putting graduates in the most debt.

Link to story

Across the board, it seems that most of them are art and design oriented institutions. It is also embarrassing to have 3 colleges in the area among 13 across the entire country.

**Russix** · November-18-10, 08:10 PM

Lawrence Tech is something like $800 plus a credit hour. I thought Wayne State was bad @ $375 cr/h. Those damn Germans have some how figured out how to give education away for free! Hey, does anybody notice this crazy thing that we're NOT on the road to socialism?

**dtowncitylover** · November-18-10, 08:25 PM

Everyday I wish I were born in France or Germany. While they do pay a small amount for university, there universities are academic minded not sports or money-grabbing minded. I don't want to fathom how much I will be in debt after school. I'm not rich enough for my trust fund to pay for school and not poor enough to receive enough federal loans, if it all.

**Russix** · November-19-10, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

Everyday I wish I were born in France or Germany. While they do pay a small amount for university, there universities are academic minded not sports or money-grabbing minded. I don't want to fathom how much I will be in debt after school. I'm not rich enough for my trust fund to pay for school and not poor enough to receive enough federal loans, if it all.

Germany does take a small number of American students, provided you can understand German. You only have to pay some really minor fees each semester[[$600/yr), something like gym or technical fees. However, it’s relatively possible that you can get your rent paid for with a grant or scholarship. Our education system is jacked. We at least need to nationalize the first two years of college where everyone takes their high school classes over again.

**Johnlodge** · November-19-10, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

Everyday I wish I were born in France or Germany.

We can try to raise money to send you there if you like. How much is a one way ticket?

**mwilbert** · November-19-10, 09:25 AM

Trades only matter when your country actually MAKES THINGS.

Without dealing with the implicit claim that the US doesn't make things, this isn't true. You need plumbers, HVAC folks, mechanics, etc. whether you make anything or not.

**ghettopalmetto** · November-19-10, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

Without dealing with the implicit claim that the US doesn't make things, this isn't true. You need plumbers, HVAC folks, mechanics, etc. whether you make anything or not.

Well, we *had* means of training people for things like plumbing, HVAC, mechanics, etc, until we decided that we need to go all brown-shirted on the trade unions.

**dtowncitylover** · November-19-10, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by Johnlodge

We can try to raise money to send you there if you like. How much is a one way ticket?

About $800 or so to de Gaulle. I'd love one actually.

[[this is beside your post) I work. But I don't make $100 an hour to afford university. I actually work for Oakland County and because we are so "poor" we get to take pay cuts last year, this year, and next year! It would be great if our educational system was more about the student and less about the student's wallet or damn sports.

And Russix, I did know that, however j'parle francais

Finland also does this, however who knows Finnish? [[save the Fins of course!)

**1KielsonDrive** · November-18-10, 08:27 PM

It's the Corporate model. Big corporate colleges and universities can charge you anything they like due to demand for degrees, which are useless in most cases. You have to obtain a minimum of two degrees to do anything other than work in a fast food joint. They hook you into a gigantic university, then make you pay for the rest of your life. Unless, of course, you get the right degrees and know the right people. Which is what they try to sell you. What other institutions in our country, other than huge multi-national corporations such as health care, pharmaceuticals, oil, banking, credit cards [[oh, I don't have time to list all of them) can get away with raising your fees faster then inflation and a speeding bullet?

**SWMAP** · November-18-10, 08:54 PM

Speaking of, for instant, German universities: isn't it very hard to qualify? The government is subsidizing tuition for a relatively small and guaranteed to succeed minority of the population?
How would such elitist admission policies go over here?

**EastsideAl** · November-18-10, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

Speaking of, for instant, German universities: isn't it very hard to qualify? The government is subsidizing tuition for a relatively small and guaranteed to succeed minority of the population?
How would such elitist admission policies go over here?

We already have an elitist system here, in case you haven't noticed. In fact, that's pretty much exactly what this thread is complaining about.

If you are fortunate enough to come from a family that's already wealthy then you pretty much have your pick of private and top-end public colleges around the country. It really doesn't matter much what you've done before, especially if you're coming from one of the elite private high schools.

Otherwise you have to be one of the very fortunate few who win scholarships [[or be a damn good football or basketball player), or be ready to take out enormous loans that you will be repaying for the next decade or more. Even our public college tuition in this country now pretty much demands that anyone of normal means will have to take out loans to attend.

In contrast, in Germany, admission is competitive, but the only thing that matters in the competition is your academic qualifications. And once you're in you don't have to enslave yourself to loans for years or bankrupt your family to attend. So the process is actually the antithesis of elitism. In fact, it's a system that was very specifically designed to undermine elitism.

**mwilbert** · November-18-10, 10:16 PM

The German and the US university systems both have their good points. Where Germany is clearly superior is in its system of training for people who don't go to college.

It is true that the rising cost of US colleges is unsustainable, and something is going to have to change, but these things almost always take longer to blow up than you expect--twenty years ago I expected the US higher ed model to break before now, however it looks to me like it could easily be another ten years before there is significant change.

**Gistok** · November-19-10, 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

The German and the US university systems both have their good points. Where Germany is clearly superior is in its system of training for people who don't go to college.

It is true that the rising cost of US colleges is unsustainable, and something is going to have to change, but these things almost always take longer to blow up than you expect--twenty years ago I expected the US higher ed model to break before now, however it looks to me like it could easily be another ten years before there is significant change.

Very true mwilbert... Germany also has some outstanding vocational schools. They probably don't bother graduating a lot of Liberal Arts degreed students who later have trouble finding work with such a generic degree.

**Hypestyles** · November-18-10, 09:04 PM

until American government realizes that higher education for all benefits the country overall, we're going to continue to see University presidents making $1million+ a year, higher tuition yearly costs regardless of the economy and contracting services; and some people feel "privileged" to be on hock for $50K, $100K+ as long as they finally get their degree..

**darwinism** · November-18-10, 09:36 PM

You guys are right - The majority of those colleges are private institutions.

At the end of the day, and most of our lifetimes for that matter, many of us are just slaves to debts ..... whether it is car loans, college loans, credit cards, home equity lines of credit, mortgages, and so on.

Even college degree holders, some with Master's degrees, are paying years and decades after graduation. Something is very wrong with the entire picture here. What happen to the coming of socialism and communism that we hear so much about ?

lilpup · November-19-10, 12:32 AM

Students are tracked early in Germany - jr high or so - for either college prep or vocational - there isn't the blatant disrespect for the trades nor the absurd notion that book learning is everything

**ghettopalmetto** · November-19-10, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by lilpup

Students are tracked early in Germany - jr high or so - for either college prep or vocational - there isn't the blatant disrespect for the trades nor the absurd notion that book learning is everything

Trades only matter when your country actually MAKES THINGS.

On the other hand, I agree with the sentiment that we need to do a better job of educating the best and brightest--REGARDLESS of socioeconomic status. Conversely, we should be training people in some kind of vocation if they're not going to attend university, or if they don't have the brainpower. Nowhere is it written that you're entitled to a law degree and a six-figure income at age 25 just because you were born to a rich daddy.

Augustiner · November-19-10, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by lilpup

Students are tracked early in Germany - jr high or so - for either college prep or vocational - there isn't the blatant disrespect for the trades nor the absurd notion that book learning is everything

The tracking system probably plays a significant part in keeping university costs down. When you start at an American university, you often have to spend your first 2-3 semesters fucking around with stuff like Intro to English Composition that should really be taught in high school, because we can't count on our wildly-inconsistent patchwork of subpar high school curricula to adequately prepare people for college. If you finish a German Gymnasium and pass your Abitur, you're assumed to have a good grounding in the basics when you start at the university, and can start off with much more specialized courses. It seems like American universities could cut out a lot of unnecessary expenses if they didn't have to be the thirteenth grade.

**dtowncitylover** · November-19-10, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by Augustiner

It seems like American universities could cut out a lot of unnecessary expenses if they didn't have to be the thirteenth grade.

In Facebook speak: LIKE!

It would be great if the ACT become the American version of the French Bac or German Arbitur or British A-Levels.

We have the APs, but they are not required for university. I took AP World History and AP Comparative Politics, got worthy marks, and got ZERO credit for them.

**Johnlodge** · November-19-10, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

In Facebook speak: LIKE!

It would be great if the ACT become the American version of the French Bac or German Arbitur or British A-Levels.

We have the APs, but they are not required for university. I took AP World History and AP Comparative Politics, got worthy marks, and got ZERO credit for them.

Did you take the AP Tests for those courses? I remember taking AP Chemistry in high school, but I didn't take the AP Test, so I didn't get college credit.

**p1acebo** · November-19-10, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Johnlodge

Did you take the AP Tests for those courses? I remember taking AP Chemistry in high school, but I didn't take the AP Test, so I didn't get college credit.

I was in 3 AP classes in high school and you would receive credit for the AP test depending on the school. For instance, at MSU you HAVE to take a math class, even if you test out of a lower one. I was in AP calc, and even though I didn't get a 5 on the AP test, even if I did I would have to take calc 2... you are not able to get out of taking some time of math class. In this situation you would not be able to save money on a useless class regardless.

**dtowncitylover** · November-19-10, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by Johnlodge

Did you take the AP Tests for those courses? I remember taking AP Chemistry in high school, but I didn't take the AP Test, so I didn't get college credit.

Yeah of course I took the tests...thought that that would be inferred sorry!

Augustiner · November-19-10, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by Johnlodge

Did you take the AP Tests for those courses? I remember taking AP Chemistry in high school, but I didn't take the AP Test, so I didn't get college credit.

For some reason, colleges only seem to accept IB scores as AP/college gen-ed equivalents if they were taken Higher Level. Standard Level exams, even though IMO they're harder to pass than the equivalent gen-ed classes at your average American university, aren't good for anything more than regular public high school classes. Since the IB requires you to take at least two SL exams, you can get a full IB diploma and still have to meet those two gen-ed requirements in college. It all seems kind of arbitrary to me.

**partyhardy** · November-19-10, 08:58 AM

Not only do students go into debt to obtain a degree, that debt can NEVER be wiped away in bankruptcy. Federal ones or private ones from banks. So, if you realize your degree is useless and can't get a job with it, it's too bad. On the contrast, you can rack up a $10,000 gambling debt and have that wiped out with no problem. It's quite a racket they got going on with higher education right now.

**Johnlodge** · November-19-10, 09:11 AM

Worked for me, and the debt is already paid off with money earned utilizing the skill learned at the institution. Don't want to pay that much? Go to one of the myriad of other less expensive options in our area. Tip: As large a portion of the credits as possible of my "expensive college degree" were earned at Oakland Community College, but they don't put that on your degree!