Southfield Vs Troy

[Downtown Lady]

mwilbert, I have to disagree with your assessment that Southfield's housing is mostly unattractive. You pick your neighborhood and there are beautiful places to live. Farmstyle? We got it! 60s-70s suburban tract ranging from low to high scale, got those! Architect designed homes in upscale neighborhoods! We got 'em! Late 90s-00s bigfoot neighborhoods, we have 'em. Historic auto exec houses on big estate size lots, yep, got those. Nice newer rowhouses close to shopping and food courts? Got them, too. You want nice big lots with your house? We have them. We have wonderful upscale ravine properties you would pay megabux for anywhere else. You like neighborhoods where the houses are similar and there are sidewalks for the kids to play on? We have those, too. Our housing is both diverse [[I said there is more than one kind of diversity) and affordable. Come on and see.

I completely agree. Housing in Southfield is quite diverse and often beautiful, but pre-conceived notions prevent many from ever discovering that.

My favorite area of Southfield is the western end where the Rouge River runs through it -- many homes have the Rouge in their backyard, and many other homes have in their backyard a ravine with a small stream that is an offshoot of the Rouge. The lots are wooded and are often a half acre in size or more. Deer are commonly seen, as are woodchucks, chipmunks and rabbits. It's peaceful and serene, like living in the country, yet it is just a mile or two from the city, from Telegraph, and from major freeways.

I completely disagree with Mwilbert's statement: "The emptying out of the region leaves it an unneeded area with essentially no redeeming characteristics, with mostly unattractive housing and lacking both urban and suburban amenities."

The beauty and diversity of housing is just as Gazhekwe described. Not only are there suburban and urban amenities, there are often almost rural amenities as well. Due to people's myopia, the beauty of Southfield remains a well-kept secret.

[DetroitPole]

Get serious, drive through both cities. In every Southfield neighborhood I've been in foreclosed houses are very visable and they just sit. Even in the nicest areas they don't move nearly as fast as they do in Troy. When they do sell it is for way less per square foot. I'm not saying that Southfield housing is as devalued as Detroit, but, values are way higher in Troy. Talk to any realtor, ask him / her where they would rather have a listing.

Ok, you can actually look this shit up using this thing called the internet instead of just speculating:

Houses in Southfield stayed on the market for an average of 134 days.

Houses in Troy stayed on the market for an average of 131 days.

http://realestate.aol.com/Southfield-MI-real-estate

So they're the same.

Values in Troy are waaay higher but people have a changing attitude towards homebuying and don't have the money or access to credit they used to. Personally I'd never pay $170,000 for a house unless it was quite palatial.

http://www.zillow.com/local-info/MI-...27195%26el%3D0

Personally, I shed no tears over Troy's misfortunes. They were the poster child of what a city should be simply because their enormous new-money wealth allowed them to provide excellent services. That's all dried up now, and now it's just subdivisions and shopping centers. Those aren't the things that make a city or a region great, and it's about time we start to figure that our around here.

[kryptonite]

I live in Lathrup, so I am very familiar with Southfield.

Southfield schools are not at all diverse, the roads are poor, the shopping centers are losing tenants, there are totally vacant office buildings on the southern border, it is getting more difficult to find quality stores and people with money appear to be leaving as a rule.

My opinion is that quality of life in Southfield is just mediocre. It has the feel of an aging and deteriorating area. Many business strips and residential areas are shabby appearing and have very high vacancy rates.

There are still some nice neighborhoods and a few nice shopping centers in Southfield and the area west of Evergreen and north of Ten Mile appears to be holding it's own. The parks seem fairly nice and I enjoy the rural feel of SW Southfield along Beech and Nine Mile, etc.

Still, I'll give Troy the advantage for the future, no doubt. I am in Troy frequently and find it to be a great improvement over Southfield.

[gazhekwe]

Have you BEEN south of Ten Mile and east of Evergreen to shop? We have all kinds of wonderful things here, I guess they are our little secret. Plum Hollow has a nice little market with top quality meats, fish and cheese, a summer ice cream parlor, and more in the four corners area there, a deli, a big Walgreen's, you can get anything you want...

We have things that are very useful at Ten and Southfield, Ten and Greenfield, Nine and Greenfield as well. Where else can you shop in Bielorusse? Ten and Greenfield is Bielorusse, Michigan. Venture into our territory sometime.

[kryptonite]

Yes, I've been to Plum Hollow Mkt and to the Walgreens near it. I've been to the shops along Greenfield from Lincoln to 12 Mile. Plum Hollow is fairly good, but tiny and has a limited selection. it doesn't compare to Nino Salvaggio's in Troy. The stores along Greenfield in Southfield don't inspire me to visit frequently, but I do use them from time to time.

Other than the strip of shops along Northwestern Hwy, my personal experience with retailing in Southfield is not overly impressive. I tend to do business in Berkley, Birmingham, Royal Oak, Troy, etc. I still do some amount of shopping in Southfield, but it seems to be less and less all the time.

Troy still gets my vote for future viability.

[Hypestyles]

how many bus lines does Southfield have? how many does Troy have? which community has better apartment buildings?

[softailrider]

Ok, you can actually look this shit up using this thing called the internet instead of just speculating:

Houses in Southfield stayed on the market for an average of 134 days.

Houses in Troy stayed on the market for an average of 131 days.

http://realestate.aol.com/Southfield-MI-real-estate

So they're the same.

Values in Troy are waaay higher but people have a changing attitude towards homebuying and don't have the money or access to credit they used to. Personally I'd never pay $170,000 for a house unless it was quite palatial.

http://www.zillow.com/local-info/MI-...27195%26el%3D0

Personally, I shed no tears over Troy's misfortunes. They were the poster child of what a city should be simply because their enormous new-money wealth allowed them to provide excellent services. That's all dried up now, and now it's just subdivisions and shopping centers. Those aren't the things that make a city or a region great, and it's about time we start to figure that our around here.

I'll say [[write) it again, ask any realtor where they would rather have a listing, in Southfield or in Troy.

In the nicest Troy subdivisions [[ Beach Forest, Oak River ect. ) 3500 to 4000 square foot houses are selling in the 400,000.00 to 600,000.00 dollar range, some a little more , some a bit less. Way down from where they were, but, they're all selling. I don't see anybody sitting with them for long at all. Some people must think they're getting a great deal at those prices.

[Detroitnerd]

I'll say [[write) it again, ask any realtor where they would rather have a listing, in Southfield or in Troy.

In the nicest Troy subdivisions [[ Beach Forest, Oak River ect. ) 3500 to 4000 square foot houses are selling in the 400,000.00 to 600,000.00 dollar range, some a little more , some a bit less. Way down from where they were, but, they're all selling. I don't see anybody sitting with them for long at all. Some people must think they're getting a great deal at those prices.

Has anybody mentioned race yet? [stands back]

[swingline]

Like almost all municipalities in Michigan, Troy and Southfield are facing significant problems with their budgets. The elected leaders in both places seem to be proactive in trying to head off the problems but it hasn't been easy.

As for the future though, it seems that indisputable that Troy's is brighter. The Southfield schools continue to struggle achievement-wise and this is a huge anchor on residential property values -- and consequently on property tax revenues. Troy schools, on the other hand, rank in the top 5% in the state. Upper middle class taxpaying families will continue to be drawn to Troy for the forseeable future. Toward Southfield, not so much. Higher housing values in Troy yield far more tax revenue per household. If the economy rebounds and housing values stabilize, Troy will be okay. Southfield, with its under-performing schools and already larger than average tax burden will continue to encounter budget difficulties.

[Detroitnerd]

Like almost all municipalities in Michigan, Troy and Southfield are facing significant problems with their budgets. The elected leaders in both places seem to be proactive in trying to head off the problems but it hasn't been easy.

As for the future though, it seems that indisputable that Troy's is brighter. The Southfield schools continue to struggle achievement-wise and this is a huge anchor on residential property values -- and consequently on property tax revenues. Troy schools, on the other hand, rank in the top 5% in the state. Upper middle class taxpaying families will continue to be drawn to Troy for the forseeable future. Toward Southfield, not so much. Higher housing values in Troy yield far more tax revenue per household. If the economy rebounds and housing values stabilize, Troy will be okay. Southfield, with its under-performing schools and already larger than average tax burden will continue to encounter budget difficulties.

Re: Southfield's school system, is it relevant to bring up that depressing saw about "integration" being the "period between the first black family moving in and the last white family moving out"?

[Hermod]

Has anybody mentioned race yet? [stands back]

About the City of Troy, Michigan

Where can you find the best city to live in Michigan that is also one of the safest in the nation and second most ethnically diverse in the state? What city offers affordable housing, A+ rated schools, quality public services, and a solid bond rating? Where can families and businesses prosper in a place that offers the finest high-end office space in the Midwest, world class shopping and dining, and over 900 acres of park lands? The City of Troy!


While Troy maintains its hometown charm, the City is a vibrant business and technology center and a community recognized for its civic spirit and quality of life. Located in the busy northern Detroit suburbs, Troy is home to more than 81,000 residents and approximately 5,700 thriving businesses that employ 125,000 people. With seven million square feet in retail space, 18 million square feet of office and 20 million square feet of manufacturing/engineering space, Troy is one of a few AAA rated cities in Michigan and a prime location for new and expanding businesses located in Oakland County.

As of the census of 2000, there were 80,959 people, 30,018 households, and 21,883 families residing in the city. The population density was 2,413.9 people per square mile. There were 30,872 housing units at an average density of 920.5 per square mile. The racial makeup of the city was 82.30% White, 2.09% African American, 0.15% Native American, 13.25% Asian, 0.02% Pacific Islander, 0.36% from other races, and 1.82% from two or more races. 1.46% of the population is Hispanic or Latino of any race. Troy has the highest percentage of people of Asian descent of any city in Michigan.


There were 30,018 households out of which 36.9% had children under the age of 18 living with them, 64.5% were married couples living together, 6.0% had a female householder with no husband present, and 27.1% were non-families. 22.8% of all households were made up of individuals and 7.8% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older. The average household size was 2.69 and the average family size was 3.23.


In the city the population was spread out with 26.2% under the age of 18, 6.7% from 18 to 24, 29.8% from 25 to 44, 27.1% from 45 to 64, and 10.2% who were 65 years of age or older. The median age was 38 years. For every 100 females there were 98.1 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there were 94.8 males.


According to a 2007 estimate, the median income for a household in the city was $84,330, and the median income for a family was $101,271. Males had a median income of $66,475 versus $41,026 for females. The per capita income for the city was $35,936. About 1.7% of families and 2.7% of the population were below the poverty line.

Looks like Troy is doing something right.

[Detroitnerd]

Looks like Troy is doing something right.

Are you referring to it being 82.3 percent white?

[Bearinabox]

Has anybody mentioned race yet? [stands back]

Shh, we can't talk about that or we'll be racist. We don't acknowledge race. We don't see race. We don't even know what race is. All we know is, people are people, and Those People Over There aren't doing as well as Us Over Here. Since race doesn't exist and we're all exactly the same, the problem must be that Those People Over There aren't lifting themselves up by their bootstraps hard enough, which is entirely their fault, I'm sure.

Here are some good ways to talk about why we won't live in Southfield without being called racist:

1. Instead of "I don't want a bunch of black people in my kid's high school graduation pictures," say "oh, you know, the schools in Southfield just aren't that good, and we all want only the best for our children, right? It's all about the kids." Don't worry, backing up factual claims like this with evidence is not necessary or even expected. Everybody will know what you mean. If some liberal wiseass tries to play dumb with you, accuse them of not caring about their children.

2. Instead of "Southfield is just too close to Detroit for comfort," say "my kids wanted a bigger backyard, so we had to move out a little further, you know? It's all about the kids." If some liberal wiseass tries to point out that Southfield has some of the largest lots in the metro area, and your backyard in South Lyon just looks big because the lots are all weird shapes and there aren't any fences in back, just walk away. No point in even arguing with idiots like that.

3. If not seeing race doesn't work for you, try not seeing black people at all. Just pretend they don't exist. Say things like "nobody even shops at Northland anymore, the place is totally dead" or "just look at all these empty SMART buses driving by on 12 Mile. What a waste, paying for these when nobody uses them." This last point will distract any liberal wiseasses who might still be listening into a discussion about the proper role of government, leaving you free to escape further awkward questions by expounding on your decidedly non-racist libertarian economic views.

[Detroitnerd]

Shh, we can't talk about that or we'll be racist. We don't acknowledge race. We don't see race. We don't even know what race is. All we know is, people are people, and Those People Over There aren't doing as well as Us Over Here. Since race doesn't exist and we're all exactly the same, the problem must be that Those People Over There aren't lifting themselves up by their bootstraps hard enough, which is entirely their fault, I'm sure.

Here are some good ways to talk about why we won't live in Southfield without being called racist:

1. Instead of "I don't want a bunch of black people in my kid's high school graduation pictures," say "oh, you know, the schools in Southfield just aren't that good, and we all want only the best for our children, right? It's all about the kids." Don't worry, backing up factual claims like this with evidence is not necessary or even expected. Everybody will know what you mean. If some liberal wiseass tries to play dumb with you, accuse them of not caring about their children.

2. Instead of "Southfield is just too close to Detroit for comfort," say "my kids wanted a bigger backyard, so we had to move out a little further, you know? It's all about the kids." If some liberal wiseass tries to point out that Southfield has some of the largest lots in the metro area, and your backyard in South Lyon just looks big because the lots are all weird shapes and there aren't any fences in back, just walk away. No point in even arguing with idiots like that.

3. If not seeing race doesn't work for you, try not seeing black people at all. Just pretend they don't exist. Say things like "nobody even shops at Northland anymore, the place is totally dead" or "just look at all these empty SMART buses driving by on 12 Mile. What a waste, paying for these when nobody uses them." This last point will distract any liberal wiseasses who might still be listening into a discussion about the proper role of government, leaving you free to escape further awkward questions by expounding on your decidedly non-racist libertarian economic views.

Hahahaha. OMG, that's great. You missed a few "code words" though.

Home values: "I'm worried that home values won't hold up as well in Southfield."
Translation: "After every last white person packs up their Conestoga wagon and heads on to the next suburban city, housing values are going to tank! Why would I want to be left holding the bag? Progressive ideals?"

Property crime: "I'm concerned that we've seen a spike in property crime there."
Translation: "Sure, they've been nice so far, but I'm really worried about all those black people that are sure to move there soon taking my stuff. Someday. Eventually."

High taxes: "I love that place, but I'm dismayed by the high taxes."
Translation: "I love that place, but I worry that the new residents are going to need services, and, since we can't tax the business community, I'm going to have to pay for a functioning city that isn't all upper-income people."

[gazhekwe]

I love it! You guys have hit exactly what I meant by covert racism. Meanwhile, the fingers go in the ears and they say, "Lalalala, I can't hear you!"

[DetroitPole]

Shh, we can't talk about that or we'll be racist. We don't acknowledge race. We don't see race. We don't even know what race is. All we know is, people are people, and Those People Over There aren't doing as well as Us Over Here. Since race doesn't exist and we're all exactly the same, the problem must be that Those People Over There aren't lifting themselves up by their bootstraps hard enough, which is entirely their fault, I'm sure.

Here are some good ways to talk about why we won't live in Southfield without being called racist:

1. Instead of "I don't want a bunch of black people in my kid's high school graduation pictures," say "oh, you know, the schools in Southfield just aren't that good, and we all want only the best for our children, right? It's all about the kids." Don't worry, backing up factual claims like this with evidence is not necessary or even expected. Everybody will know what you mean. If some liberal wiseass tries to play dumb with you, accuse them of not caring about their children.

2. Instead of "Southfield is just too close to Detroit for comfort," say "my kids wanted a bigger backyard, so we had to move out a little further, you know? It's all about the kids." If some liberal wiseass tries to point out that Southfield has some of the largest lots in the metro area, and your backyard in South Lyon just looks big because the lots are all weird shapes and there aren't any fences in back, just walk away. No point in even arguing with idiots like that.

3. If not seeing race doesn't work for you, try not seeing black people at all. Just pretend they don't exist. Say things like "nobody even shops at Northland anymore, the place is totally dead" or "just look at all these empty SMART buses driving by on 12 Mile. What a waste, paying for these when nobody uses them." This last point will distract any liberal wiseasses who might still be listening into a discussion about the proper role of government, leaving you free to escape further awkward questions by expounding on your decidedly non-racist libertarian economic views.

Haha true genius.

To be fair, Troy has the second-highest non-minority percentage in the metro area [[after Detroit). However, they're mostly Asians[[Indians?). Very small black population.

As Danny once said, "If you're white, you're all right, if you're brown, stick around, if you're black, get back!"

[Patrick]

Southfield has a library...Troy is killing theirs

[gazhekwe]

We have a fabulous library in Southfield, in a beautiful new building. It was a very divisive issue, as many felt we couldn't afford it, but the funding was approved and up it went. It is awesome!

[Vic_doucette]

I grew up in Lathrup Village [[SLHS grad) and have lived in Southfield for six years. I love it here. The only thing I don't like about my neighborhood is that it has no sidewalks. I've never lived in a home that I like better than the one I am in now.

I have plenty of nearby options for shopping and dining. I wish the business community was doing better -- there's an abandoned Farmer Jack that A&P has stopped paying rent on not far from my home -- but the whole area is dealing with those problems; they aren't unique to Southfield.

Southfield is also home to The Miracle League of Michigan, a nonprofit that I've volunteered with for seven years. Thanks to the city for leasing us land in the municipal complex to put up a rubberized, wheelchair-accessible baseball diamond so that all kids can play baseball. See www.michiganmiracle.org for more details.

I have nothing against Troy. But I love where I am and hope to be here for a long, long time.

[Paddington]

People are smoking the crack pipe if they think Troy and Southfield are even remotely comparable. Other than both being suburbs of Detroit, and both having shiny, tall office buildings, they have nothing in common.

[Hermod]

Are you referring to it being 82.3 percent white?

More diverse than Detroit.

[Pingu]

I know this is TMI, but I've always had this big-chick rape fantasy [[ask my wife). So any city with a "Big Beaver" road gets my attention. Yeah Troy !!!

[Bearinabox]

More diverse than Detroit.

The point just flew straight over your head and landed in Madagascar.

[DetroitPole]

More diverse than Detroit.

Sorry dude, if you look at the 2000 census, Detroit is more diverse. Most diverse city in SE Michigan. Deal with it. We'll see the official results of 2010 next year.

[Hermod]

The point just flew straight over your head and landed in Madagascar.

OK, do it like this then:

Percentage of various racial groups as a per cent of the population:

Detroit 81.6%--12.3%--1.0%--0.3%

Troy 82.3%--13.3%--2.1%--0.2%


Either both are diverse or neither is diverse.

.