SMART's new articulated buses

**RO_Resident** · October-21-10, 09:09 PM

Walking by the SMART headquarters on Wednesday, I saw they were showing off one of their new hybrid electric articulating buses. The sucker is huge compared to their regular buses.

I didn't think they were taking delivery until next year.

Guess I was wrong. They are going into service at the first of November.
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...REE/101019852#

**wolverine** · October-21-10, 10:06 PM

I always enjoy sitting inside the accordion section

**professorscott** · October-21-10, 10:59 PM

I know a few people at SMART so I knew they already had them, but I hadn't known when they were going to be put on the road. I'm looking forward to it! Now, the Gratiot route turns around in either Chesterfield Township or New Baltimore, and in both cases it will be interesting to see how they u-turn those vehicles... not much room especially in the case of NB.

**Hermod** · October-22-10, 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

I know a few people at SMART so I knew they already had them, but I hadn't known when they were going to be put on the road. I'm looking forward to it! Now, the Gratiot route turns around in either Chesterfield Township or New Baltimore, and in both cases it will be interesting to see how they u-turn those vehicles... not much room especially in the case of NB.

Go around a block or through a strip mall. Left turn, left turn, left turn, right turn or right turn, right turn, right turn, left turn.

LodgeDodger · October-22-10, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

I know a few people at SMART so I knew they already had them, but I hadn't known when they were going to be put on the road. I'm looking forward to it! Now, the Gratiot route turns around in either Chesterfield Township or New Baltimore, and in both cases it will be interesting to see how they u-turn those vehicles... not much room especially in the case of NB.

Saw my first "accordion" bus in Paris. We were sitting in a cafe and realized just how long that thing was! It was as if we were watching that Lucille Ball movie with the motor home! The driver didn't seem to have any problems maneuvering the bus through traffic and through the various streets. Now, I've not watched them make a U-turn, but with the traffic messes they were in, I'm sure a U-turn would have been cake.

**oldredfordette** · October-22-10, 06:31 AM

One was parked on Lafayette the other day, real pretty. The driver told me she loved driving it, she said much easier than you'd think.

**gnome** · October-22-10, 06:57 AM

don't you have to have passengers to fill those up? Isn't the problem with SMART is that there are not enough people riding? How will a bigger bus solve that problem?

**DetroitPlanner** · October-22-10, 07:14 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

don't you have to have passengers to fill those up? Isn't the problem with SMART is that there are not enough people riding? How will a bigger bus solve that problem?

No. Transit has had increases in ridership over several consecutive years. Two factors have contributed to this.

1. Price of oil has made transit to be a more attractive alternative as opposed to driving a single occupancy vehicle.

2. As people get laid off or wages are stagnent they look for ways to either save on immediate or capital transportation costs.

Augmenting your travel by using a bus saves on wear and tear on your personal vehicle and reduces your gasoline consumption. Unfortunately, buses are supported by the fuel tax paid by drivers so a transit agency needs to look for low-cost ways to improve service.

**dtowncitylover** · October-22-10, 07:37 AM

Oh my gosh! Something most metro areas have had for decades!

This is really exciting though, saw this in the Daily Trib I think yesterday. And then I had a dream last night that DDOT got some of these buses...sad that I dream about public transit...

**Mikeg** · October-22-10, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

don't you have to have passengers to fill those up? Isn't the problem with SMART is that there are not enough people riding? How will a bigger bus solve that problem?

The size of the new busses apparently mattered less than the immediate need for them. I'm sure that the managers at SMART were able to convince the Feds that this bus purchase project was "shovel-ready" and thus qualified for the ARRA "stimulus" funding because they've been reading the threads here at DY for years and could argue with a straight face that:

a) the price of gasoline will finally reach that magic number of $5 per gallon any day now AND
b) the unsustainable lifestyle of the people who live in the suburban regions where SMART gets their millage funding is on the brink of finally collapsing under the weight of their selfish gluttony AND
c) because SMART serves an area that is part of an "international family of communities", their millage base voters would probably not raise a stink when they found out that US government "strimulus" dollars were being spent on the purchase of Canadian busses.

I'm sure the SMART managers told the Feds in their ARRA application that by the time the Canadian busses were put into service, hundreds of thousands of SE Michigan residents would be ready to abandon their costly and inefficient private vehicles and discover the conveniences of "green" mass transportation. Furthermore, the masses of new SMART commuters would be astounded when they realized that they were the tipping point - having noticed that the urban expressways they used to drive on are now being filled in, the air they breathe looks cleaner and feels cooler, the rise of the oceans have been reversed, the planet has healed and there are "green" jobs for everyone!

**Hermod** · October-22-10, 09:24 AM

While the cost of salaries is higher, I would prefer smaller buses operating at more frequent intervals unless the buses are only for commuting. I am retired and really would like a bus system which moves me around during the day on my errands. The bus system in Detroit used to do this. I had a student bus card and with bus-transfer-doubled transfer could go anywhere in the city for a dime.

**DetroitPlanner** · October-22-10, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by Mikeg

I'm sure the SMART managers told the Feds in their ARRA application that by the time the Canadian busses were put into service, hundreds of thousands of SE Michigan residents would be ready to abandon their costly and inefficient private vehicles and discover the conveniences of "green" mass transportation. Furthermore, the masses of new SMART commuters would be astounded when they realized that they were the tipping point - having noticed that the urban expressways they used to drive on are now being filled in, the air they breathe looks cleaner and feels cooler, the rise of the oceans have been reversed, the planet has healed and there are "green" jobs for everyone!

There is nothing in SMART's ARRA section 1511 project certification that leads one to believe that they were going to buy severa; articulated buses. They do mention Hybrid buses, but those are pushing a $800k each. An articulated hybrid would probably cost at least one million. [[Page 11)

**Mikeg** · October-22-10, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

There is nothing in SMART's ARRA section 1511 project certification that leads one to believe that they were going to buy severa; articulated buses. They do mention Hybrid buses, but those are pushing a $800k each. An articulated hybrid would probably cost at least one million. [[Page 11)

My two sources differ slightly from each other and both differ from your source.

From the above linked Crain's Detroit article:

The Suburban Mobility Authority for Regional Transportation bus system Tuesday unveiled its first two hybrid electric buses it will add to its fleet of 640 vehicles on Nov. 1.
The 61-foot reduced-emissions vehicles, which seat 100 and cost $1.6 million in federal stimulus funding, were put on display for local reporters.
Because the buses are articulated in the center, they can carry more passengers than the typical 60 people on a standard 40-foot bus.......
The buses were manufactured by Canadian bus maker New Flyer Industries Inc., ......
Funding for the buses came from an August 2009 $20.3 million American Recovery and Reinvestment Act grant for various SMART projects.

From SMART's own press release:

SMART will utilize the ARRA grant funding for several capital projects including the purchase of three 40-foot alternative-fuel buses, one articulated alternative-fuel bus..........

**professorscott** · October-22-10, 11:30 PM

Anyone who makes a comment akin to "don't they need people to fill those buses" has not been on the busier SMART routes lately. They don't fill buses on every route, not by a mile, but that Gratiot line is standing room only damn near all day and night.

Of course, if you're looking at the bus as it goes into New Baltimore it's practically empty, which makes sense since it's at the end of the line. Check it out in Roseville, say. You don't even have to ride; just look into the windows as you drive by.

Bearinabox · October-22-10, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

Isn't the problem with SMART is that there are not enough people riding?

Whatever gave you that idea?

**erikd** · October-23-10, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

don't you have to have passengers to fill those up? Isn't the problem with SMART is that there are not enough people riding? How will a bigger bus solve that problem?

Gnome,

I am not a daily bus rider, but I have never been on a DDOT or SMART bus that wasn't at least half-full, or more commonly 70%-80% full. My last bus trip was a few weeks ago on a Sunday morning SMART bus up Van Dyke, and we almost ran out of seats before we hit 8 mile.

**gnome** · October-23-10, 12:02 AM

You're right prof, I don't ride enough, especially on the east side. If you say they need articulated busses, then that must be true; but by my eye, I'd like them to run smaller busses, but more frequently.

I do have to doff the hat to MikeG, some very witty and informed posts.

**professorscott** · October-23-10, 12:45 AM

Gnome,

They can't. Here's why: it doesn't cost significantly less to run a small bus than a big one. They don't really even have enough money to run the schedule they run.

Now, it's not obvious that what I just said is true, you might think it would be cheaper to run small buses [[better mileage, for instance). But fuel is only a small part of the overall cost. The labor is the same - a small bus needs one driver, just like a big bus. The fuel is cheaper for smaller vehicles but the maintenance is more expensive; the larger vehicles are in some ways more robust than the smaller ones.

The only way for SMART to run a better schedule is for all of us to agree to give them more money

Cheers,
Prof. Scott

**Hermod** · October-23-10, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

Gnome,

They can't. Here's why: it doesn't cost significantly less to run a small bus than a big one. They don't really even have enough money to run the schedule they run.

Now, it's not obvious that what I just said is true, you might think it would be cheaper to run small buses [[better mileage, for instance). But fuel is only a small part of the overall cost. The labor is the same - a small bus needs one driver, just like a big bus. The fuel is cheaper for smaller vehicles but the maintenance is more expensive; the larger vehicles are in some ways more robust than the smaller ones.

The only way for SMART to run a better schedule is for all of us to agree to give them more money

Cheers,
Prof. Scott

I agree that labor is the big cost in any transit system [[increased labor costs after WW One was the nail in the coffin for privately owned mass transit) and that large buses are cheaper than small buses run more frequently.

If our intent is to get the largest number of people off the roads and into mass transit, we do have to look at the "convenience" factor.

"I need to take my car to work because I might have to go somewhere during the day".

"What if I have to work late?"

Mass transit must meet these needs in order to become popular.

**gnome** · October-23-10, 06:09 AM

Prof, as an occassional bus rider, but full-time taxpayer the sight of a huge bus with one or two people on it is a disappointment. The future sight of a 100 foot bus with one or two people on it will square that disappointment. Moreover, the view of a DDOT and SMART bus running down the same road, both with only a few passengers, is just a killer.

Sadly that is a common sight. Empty busses. Folk may hollar and moan, but 'ceptin when the school kids are jamming them, I rarely witness full busses. You might have different experience, and as a veteran of many a bus travel I will defer to your testimony, but as a tax payer it is frustrating.

It is a dbl frustation sandwich with a side of alluminim foil to chew upon, when you factor in the rationales behind the continued existence of DDOT.

A bad system, poorly run.

I understand the meme here it that mass transit will bring jobs and opportunity and hope and all things good; that meme is tempered by a reality of arrongant drivers, crazy passengers and filthy busses that are poorly maintained. I wish we had a system that was like Portland's. But we don't and I don't envision a time when we will.

even when we get something beautifl like the new bus station, it quickly becomes a new place to avoid. Last week I'm there and the bathroom is all tagged and filthy. When will it end?

**DetroitPlanner** · October-24-10, 10:13 AM

AATA [[Ann Arbor) was quick to switch over to Hybrid busses and are now finding that what they saved in operating costs may end up getting eaten away with some pretty serious rebuilds. Blue Water [[Port Huron) has a great system and has slowly moved the entire fleet to CNG buses. They have even used stimulus $$ to improve the speed of filling the buses and are planning to make the entire system of fueling solar based. Talk about using the resouces that God gave us! Michigan has plenty of cheap natural gas [[must be from the White Castles and coneys) and the sun is free [[though we are in the time period where sun is not so frequent).

**Whitehouse** · October-24-10, 12:27 PM

Here in the Netherlands they are not uncommon. I do like that wheelchair/toddler buggy ramp. Busses in the Netherlands can lower their suspension to ease the access.

The city of Utrecht even has double articulated busses. These are true monsters. The capacity is 46 to 60 seats [[depending on configutation) and 112 to 150 standing.

**DetroitPlanner** · October-25-10, 10:59 AM

Look kids, BRT has arrived before light rail! [[continues in the traffic circle between big ben and parliment)

**Hypestyles** · October-25-10, 02:28 PM

I see these buses are being built in Canada.. I don't suppose there's any reason why next-gen buses can't be built in Michigan/Detroit...?

**Mikeg** · October-25-10, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Hypestyles

I see these buses are being built in Canada.. I don't suppose there's any reason why next-gen buses can't be built in Michigan/Detroit...?

As explained above by "bc_n_dtown", even though the company is headquartered in Canada, these articulated buses were built in Minnesota with 60% US-made content.

He also explained that there are no remaining bus manufacturers here in Michigan and few in the entire US. Requiring a bidder to set up shop and build an order of buses in the state where they will be used will result in either:
a) a "no-quote" from busy and disinterested manufacturers
b) additional extra costs in the quotes from those few manufacturers willing to play the game.

So to answer your question, yes there is a very good reason why they shouldn't be built here - it is a waste of taxpayer dollars to pay extra just to have something built here which can be purchased for less if built elsewhere!