why metro detroit will never achieve regional cooperation

[Hermod]

Agreed 100% but you forget M-59, I-75, M-10, M-1, M-53 and M-24. All built to cater to those outside of Detroit.

And the Lodge, the Ford, the Fisher, the Chrysler, the Jeffries, and the Southfield to ease the Detroit traffic jams built to cater to Detroiters..

[bailey]

No one is trying to recreate Calcutta here. Cities were built in a certain manner for thousands of years of civilization. You can see the remnants of this in places like Boston, Philadelphia, and in Europe. I ask you, is it necessarily a *bad* thing for people to have *amenities* in their own neighborhood, within a short walk of their home? Must we drive drive drive 10 miles for every loaf of bread?

I dont know where you think I live, but I can do all of those things plus a few more within walking or short bike ride.

The problem is, sprawl encompasses the extremes of one idealized set of notions. It makes no accommodation whatsoever for anything other than cars and segregated land usage. It leaves no room for alternatives whatsoever.

I don't disagree with you there.

If people want to live in the "country", I can appreciate that. If people want to live in the suburbs, that's fine too--but acknowledge that the folks in the city don't OWE you a freeway that allows you to commute 30 miles each way to work in 6 minutes flat. They don't OWE you new school buildings. They don't OWE you city water and sewer service.

But do those in the suburbs OWE the city a one line train that runs completely within the city limits along a road heavily serviced by transit already? do those in the 'burbs OWE the city new school buildings? Do those in the burbs OWE the city for not only the cost of the water and sewers they use, but for the failure of city residents to pay for their services?

I'm all for not subsidizing sprawl. but blaming troy or LBP for all of detroit's problems is a cop out.

[ghettopalmetto]

But do those in the suburbs OWE the city a one line train that runs completely within the city limits along a road heavily serviced by transit already?

I'm not sure that anyone has determined that suburbanites will be contributing a single nickel to the Woodward Light Rail line. If you have differing information, please share. I would think the business owners in the suburbs, who employ city residents, would want their employees to be able to get to work, yes? In other words, it's in their economic interest, whereas it was most decidedly not in the interest of Detroiters to have their neighborhoods destroyed in order to subsidize brand-new suburban construction in the 1950s and beyond.

do those in the 'burbs OWE the city new school buildings?

So suburbanites should be allowed to use as much state funding as they want to construct redundant infrastructure, yet people in the City do not deserve adequate facilities?

Do those in the burbs OWE the city for not only the cost of the water and sewers they use, but for the failure of city residents to pay for their services?

Is this the case? Please show numbers.


Sorry, bailey. These are issues that don't recognize manmade political boundaries. It's not as if the Gates to Shangri-La are located at Eight Mile Road. The policies that L. Brooks Patterson espouses have done everything possible to make the region economically uncompetitive by dispersing wealth and investment of a fixed populaton over an increasing geographic area.

[casscorridor]

One aspect of the Detroit area that is in some respects an advantage, but works against the city now, is the international border. For better or worse, downtown Detroit is at the edge of the Metro area rather than the center, and geography [[hills and lakes) has tugged people towards the north and west, rather than concentrically around downtown [[see http://www.flickr.com/photos/walking...n/photostream/ and note how quickly the population thins out to the south and west). Like it or not, Detroit is just one of many centers in the area, and the center of population probably is somewhere in Southfield by now.

Detroit is still the center of Metro Detroit and Southeast Michigan.
A) all major interstate freeways lead into Downtown [[not including three-digit connectors) and Downtown Detroit is easily accessible to/from any area of the Metro.
B) all major rail lines lead to MCS [[including a tunnel from Windsor)
C) Detroit still sits on the Detroit River and is a major port. The international crossing [[via the tunnel or bridge) in Detroit is the #1 crossing in the country.
D) Downtown is still the hub of what little transit we have. All the busiest lines lead into the central city.
E) Although more total office space exists in the burbs, Downtown CBD still has the highest concentration of office workers anywhere in the state. Sure, there is a few areas of concentration in Southfield or along Big Beaver in Troy. But besides that there really isn't any.
F) The Midtown Cultural Center still has the highest concentration of large public/cultural/educational/health institutions in the state.
G) Even with more than half the population gone, downtown and surrounding neighborhoods are still among the densest in the region.
H) Wayne County is about the same population as Oakland and Macomb combined. If Windsor [[300k) was combined with Wayne County, it would be more populous than Oakland-Macomb. Throw in Washtenaw [[300k), and you really have a big difference. So actually more people in the Metro still live south of 8 mile than north, contrary to what you and many others probably think. It just isn't as sprawling. Not as many McMansion subdivisions and big box stores. Older, and less affluent [[more working class). .
I) Detroit is still the face of the region, and outsiders will judge our region based on the health of the the city, regardless of Oakland's AAA bond rating. Currently outsiders view metro Detroit in a very negative light... I wonder why.

This doesn't mean Detroit isn't decentralized. The region needs to be much more centralized, around the central city. The fact that it is so spread out is one of the main problems facing our region. What I mean I mean is there is no other "center" that even comes close to comparing to greater Downtown Detroit in terms of concentration of "stuff" so we should work with what we have and make that an even bigger and more important center. It is the only chance we'll get to even come close to having what other cities have.

[Hermod]

T
If Detroit *were* a functional, attractive city, you'd still notice the sprawl. Take, for example, Washington, DC. The city is relatively healthy, enjoying population and income growth, regentrification of old neighborhoods, and a return of retailing. Currently, a $5 billion subway line is being constructed into low-density, automobile-oriented neither-regions of vinyl-sided subdivisions in Virginia. That $5 billion isn't free--half of it is federal money. And for what? They're going to add 23-miles of high-capacity transit line for rush-hour-only commuters to a network that is already deteriorating and nearing capacity in the urban core of the system. They can't afford to fix escalators used by tens of thousands of people a day, but they sure as hell can build massive parking garages at $25,000 per space so that Joe Suburbanite, Esq. can park his assault vehicle at the subway station for a below-market-rate fee.

Washington DC is one of those cities where the less fortunate have to live further out. Washington DC and the inner suburbs have very high home [[and condo) prices. If you are a mid-level government clerk, you have to live way out in Dale City just to live.

[Hermod]

So suburbanites should be allowed to use as much state funding as they want to construct redundant infrastructure, yet people in the City do not deserve adequate facilities?

I would submit that it is the city of Detroit that has redundant school infrastructure. The suburban schools are pretty much fully utilized.

[ghettopalmetto]

I would submit that it is the city of Detroit that has redundant school infrastructure. The suburban schools are pretty much fully utilized.

How well-utilized would those suburban school buildings be if the State of Michigan never ponied up the money to build them?

Regardless of how ass-backward you want to perceive it, the people of the State of Michigan have spent an AWFUL lot of money over the decades to physically shift the location of, and disperse, the populace. And for what? WHAT does Detroit and Michigan have to show for all those billions??? A fucking mall where you can buy a Burberry scarf?

[R8RBOB]

I would submit that it is the city of Detroit that has redundant school infrastructure. The suburban schools are pretty much fully utilized.

Are these the same suburban schools that are inviting Detroit kids to fill their seats? I suppose the suburbs need that state money just as bad as Detroit.

[rb336]

Perceived low aesthetic value. Only by those who don't live there.

Really? cookie cutter houses and McMansions, bland architecture all around. I grew up in the burbs. Downtowns in the older burbs, northville, birmingham have their charms, but Troy and the vast majority of Macomb and Western Oakland counties [[from bloomfield township and the farmingtons on) have nothing pleasing about them whatsoever. They are wonder bread blah. Name ONE truly interesting thing about them apart from the older churches like kirk and shrine.

[R8RBOB]

Washington DC is one of those cities where the less fortunate have to live further out. Washington DC and the inner suburbs have very high home [[and condo) prices. If you are a mid-level government clerk, you have to live way out in Dale City just to live.

Fancy that....suburbs that residents have no choice to reside in because the city is unattainable. Reminds me of the Bay Area and Patterson is claiming that moving to the suburbs is and I quote "condemned by the anti-American Dreamers. "It's sprawl," they hiss, "it's bad."unquote. Fancy that.

[jt1]

How well-utilized would those suburban school buildings be if the State of Michigan never ponied up the money to build them?

Regardless of how ass-backward you want to perceive it, the people of the State of Michigan have spent an AWFUL lot of money over the decades to physically shift the location of, and disperse, the populace. And for what? WHAT does Detroit and Michigan have to show for all those billions??? A fucking mall where you can buy a Burberry scarf?

Up until the last couple of years all of those billions have allowed us to segregate people by wealth. That's worked wonders for socio-economic and racial harmony in the region.

[jjw]

The saddest aspect about his intentions and opinion is to imagine how beautiful Oakland County probably was before all of the parking lots, traffic, Michigan U's, chain shops, track housing, highways, lawns, lights, etc. became common day occurances.

Everyone discusses the "death of Detroit" but few realize the "death of Oakland and other surrounding counties" that occured with all of the sprawl.

A no-win situation for all involved.

[DC48080]

Funny thing, if you were to ask most people in Oakland County I doubt you would find many people who would consider their county dead much less consider it sprawl. That notion seems to be pretty much a DetroitYes idea.

[jjw]

Funny thing, if you were to ask most people in Oakland County I doubt you would find many people who would consider their county dead much less consider it sprawl. That notion seems to be pretty much a DetroitYes idea.

True. But I guess it would be different if someone grew up there before all the sprawl. He or she may have a different opinion.

And not to single out Oakland County.... It's a national issue as well. All places deal with this type of issue. The younger people may not mourn the loss of natural land. They don't know anything different. I, for one, love the idea of leaving a city and entering "Mother Nature" quickly rather than spending endless miles in traffic.

[Hermod]

True. But I guess it would be different if someone grew up there before all the sprawl. He or she may have a different opinion.

And not to single out Oakland County.... It's a national issue as well. All places deal with this type of issue. The younger people may not mourn the loss of natural land. They don't know anything different. I, for one, love the idea of leaving a city and entering "Mother Nature" quickly rather than spending endless miles in traffic.

I worked for the city of Troy Engineering Department in 1959 before it became built up. The city had just incorporated and there were a few subdivisions springing up especially out along Adams road. Most of the city was a rather dreary expanse of truck farms and sod farms. You weren't going to find any tinkly little brooks running through beautiful groves of shade trees. Most of the farm houses had seen better days and the few houses that were not farm houses were cheap clapboard homes with oil barrels in back for the furnace. The corners of the section line roads might have a gas station or a small grocery [[or a combination of the two). The "metro area" was beautiful downtown Big Beaver [[Rochester Rd just north of Big Beaver/16Mile) with a small shopping center of three stores one of which was a Rexall Drugs. You had to go quite a few miles north to the Clinton River to see anything of "Mother Nature".

[iheartthed]

Funny thing, if you were to ask most people in Oakland County I doubt you would find many people who would consider their county dead much less consider it sprawl. That notion seems to be pretty much a DetroitYes idea.

Or maybe a people who don't live in Oakland County perception, regarding whether it is sprawl or not. I wouldn't call the place dead, but to say it's not sprawl is quite a stretch. I will say that Oakland is getting a bad break since the worst offender for the latest round of sprawl-tastic development probably wasn't Oakland County, but instead Macomb and western Wayne. But it remains the poster child for sprawl because of that big mouthed County Exec.

[ghettopalmetto]

Most of the city was a rather dreary expanse of truck farms and sod farms. You weren't going to find any tinkly little brooks running through beautiful groves of shade trees. Most of the farm houses had seen better days and the few houses that were not farm houses were cheap clapboard homes with oil barrels in back for the furnace. The corners of the section line roads might have a gas station or a small grocery [[or a combination of the two). The "metro area" was beautiful downtown Big Beaver [[Rochester Rd just north of Big Beaver/16Mile) with a small shopping center of three stores one of which was a Rexall Drugs.

I'm trying to figure out what's so terrible about anything described in this post that required it all to be paved over and flooded with automobile traffic.

[lincoln8740]

I think that you misunderstand many people here. Myself [[and likely most) do not think suburbs are bad. Suburbs offer a lifestyle that many people seek and enjoy..

Have you not read any of this thread--the hipster doofus quotient around here hates the suburbs

The issue is building more and more subdivisions, more suburbs, more schools districts, more libraries, more PDs, more FDs when the population of the region has been flat for 20-30 years...

To quote the late great Greg Giraldo" yeah Detroit is great, you actually name your streets by how many miles away you are from the black people!"

There is a difference between suburbs and unsustainable growth. LBP [[and apparently you) support growing the region to an unsustainable land mass....

sorry--streetlights are on, cops come when called, schools are good and I don't have to worry about my kid when she plays outside--unsustainable is working fine for me.

OC and LBP have been successful simply because they bordered a dysfunctional city that sent them business by the thousand and resident by the tens of thousands. As LBP would say, the growth of OC is due ot 'poaching'.....

really? LBP had nothing to do with it? Really? Even the most ardent "brooks is the white devil" crowd around here gives him a little credit

Let's maintain a reasonable region to maintain. If you want to live at 40 mile road that is your right but it shouldn't be the responsibility of the region to support the cost for new roads, infrastructure, etc.

And it shouldn't be the responsibility of suburbanites to prop up Detroit with their hard earned cash. I have no problem with a thriving Detroit, just don't make us pay for it.

Whenever we [[the evil suburbanites) hear "we need regional cooperation" all we hear is "open up you wallets and shut your mouth suburbs"

[Barbara_10]

"Whenever we [[the evil suburbanites) hear "we need regional cooperation" all we hear is "open up you wallets and shut your mouth suburbs"

That says it all.

[ghettopalmetto]

And it shouldn't be the responsibility of suburbanites to prop up Detroit with their hard earned cash. I have no problem with a thriving Detroit, just don't make us pay for it.

So how many bags of cash do you actually send to the City of Detroit on an annual basis?

It shouldn't be the responsibility of the city to prop up the suburbs by extending roads, providing water service, foregoing tax revenues in lost businesses and residents, and bearing the burden of the poor, homeless, and mentally ill. I have no problem with a thriving Oakland County, just don't make Detroit pay for it.

Without the massively overbuilt road network and extension of water and sewer service, Oakland and Macomb Counties simply do not exist as they do today. Somebody paid for all that infrastructure, and it sure as shit wasn't the handful of farmers who lived in those counties at the time.

[English]

What happens to sprawl in a peak oil scenario?

[lincoln8740]

So how many bags of cash do you actually send to the City of Detroit on an annual basis?.

I always attach a check to my Non-Resident City of Detroit Income Tax form

It shouldn't be the responsibility of the city to prop up the suburbs by extending roads, providing water service, foregoing tax revenues in lost businesses and residents, and bearing the burden of the poor, homeless, and mentally ill. I have no problem with a thriving Oakland County, just don't make Detroit pay for it..

I just want to make sure I understand what you just said---
You are honestly saying that the City of Detroit and/or its citizens ponied up some cash so that suburbs could be built? The City that is about to go bankrupt gave money to the suburbs so that they could be built--really?

or do you mean--That becasue the City of Detroit is/was such a shithole that the suburbs came about because people were fleeing in droves and thus created a demand for housing in the suburbs?

If the latter perspective is what you are saying then I wholeheartedly agree--If Detroit wasn't a shithole then there would be no need for developments at 40 mile road.

[313WX]

I always attach a check to my Non-Resident City of Detroit Income Tax form



I just want to make sure I understand what you just said---
You are honestly saying that the City of Detroit and/or its citizens ponied up some cash so that suburbs could be built? The City that is about to go bankrupt gave money to the suburbs so that they could be built--really?

or do you mean--That becasue the City of Detroit is/was such a shithole that the suburbs came about because people were fleeing in droves and thus created a demand for housing in the suburbs?

If the latter perspective is what you are saying then I wholeheartedly agree--If Detroit wasn't a shithole then there would be no need for developments at 40 mile road.

Detroit still had healthy tax base [[60s - 80s) when the intial suburban infrastructure was built.

[English]

Weren't most of the suburbs built [[or at least planned) before the city was in its present-day
condition? [[Edited to add: 313WX, I didn't see your post before I wrote this... thanks!)

Detroit is the poster child for poor urban/suburban planning. It's not about irresponsible city vs. selfish suburbs. The region we have today had its seeds planted 40-50 years ago. 40-50 years from now, the region and the nation will be different. I sincerely hope the conversations are different as well.

[R8RBOB]

"Whenever we [[the evil suburbanites) hear "we need regional cooperation" all we hear is "open up you wallets and shut your mouth suburbs"

That says it all.

Why are you evil? Do you roam the streets of Detroit to victimized Detroiters in an act of suburban supremacy to remind them how much you have and what they don't have? Enlighten me on the term "evil suburbanites?"