Libertarians bash light rail

[Scottathew]

Like others said, true libertarians don't even believe that government should have public education, fire departments, or public roads. Of course they're going to object.

I agree with others, this rail system needs to go beyond Woodward. At the very least it needs to get to Royal Oak. However, I think the long term goal needs to be Pontiac. Also, it needs to be elevated. The initial leg is going to be on-street, and on-street means that it will be slower than going by car.

In New York the subway is often FASTER than going by car because subways don't compete with street traffic. That's not to say the M1-Rail has to be below ground, above ground is just as acceptable if it is elevated above the streets.

I work in the Campus Martius area and if [[elevated) M1 Rail was built up to Royal Oak, I would seriously be looking at Royal Oak for my next home.

I would love to become a one car family. It would put $400 a month back into my pocket [[car payment + insurance, not counting fuel due to ticket fares).

[R8RBOB]

Like others said, true libertarians don't even believe that government should have public education, fire departments, or public roads. Of course they're going to object.

I agree with others, this rail system needs to go beyond Woodward. At the very least it needs to get to Royal Oak. However, I think the long term goal needs to be Pontiac. Also, it needs to be elevated. The initial leg is going to be on-street, and on-street means that it will be slower than going by car.

In New York the subway is often FASTER than going by car because subways don't compete with street traffic. That's not to say the M1-Rail has to be below ground, above ground is just as acceptable if it is elevated above the streets.

I work in the Campus Martius area and if [[elevated) M1 Rail was built up to Royal Oak, I would seriously be looking at Royal Oak for my next home.

I would love to become a one car family. It would put $400 a month back into my pocket [[car payment + insurance, not counting fuel due to ticket fares).

They could rework the traffic system in which the light rail will have right of way. There will be no stopping at red lights....LOL. Elevated, which would be nice to have in Detroit would be too, too costly.

Let me repeat what I've said before: the main reason the Detroit light rail line won't go north of the fairgrounds property any time in the near future is that Brooks doesn't want it to.

People must remember that Brooks Patterson has said on many occasions that loves sprawl. He is on record saying that any rail out of Detroit would be a waste of money and that we needed more freeways. The only way Oakland County and by extension L. Brooks Patterson would embrace light-rail going through Oakland Country is that a number of the companies that call OC home like Delphi, Guardian Industries, Chrysler did a 180 and relocate their base of operations on the other side of 8Mile. If more OC residents had to travel south with the ones that are currently making that drive then the OC overlords may have a different view toward light-rail. Until then, they can stall and stall for years.

[Detroitnerd]

In New York the subway is often FASTER than going by car because subways don't compete with street traffic. That's not to say the M1-Rail has to be below ground, above ground is just as acceptable if it is elevated above the streets.

We often get into discussions about "elevated rail," and the consensus is that elevated rail will not work.

It costs many times more per mile to build.

Every stop would have to have elevators.

So few governments are building elevateds that you couldn't take advantage of the economies of scale that other governments can using ground rail.

It would delay implementation and therefore hurt the regional economy with a long and costly build-out.

Many of the worries about light rail in traffic can simply be dealt with by giving the train right of way and control over traffic signaling, which is much cheaper and pretty much the way a lot of other cities do it.

Detroit was based on the streetcar, the light rail of its day. Let's RESTORE the service Detroit used to have, then talk about going over or under for greater speed.

Also, one of the reasons a lot of people want elevateds is so that rail service does not interfere with auto traffic. We need to get past this mind-set if we're ever to be serious about providing mass transit.

Let's restore Detroit's light rail service first, as a MUST; then, later, we can discuss where we should have light rail service go underground for speed.

[Russix]

Why would it be "cost prohibitive"?

The center boulevard of Woodward north of 8-mile was constructed specifically for the Detroit-Pontiac interurban line. When the state widened Woodward, they relocated the interurban line from the side of the road to the boulevard in the center [[at the sole expense of the interurban company). That was one of the reasons the interurban company was driven into bankruptcy and why Detroit metro lost passenger light rail.

If you had express trains which loaded from secure park and ride lots north of 8-mile that ran into Detroit with maximum places at which cars could pass with limited stops only to discharge passengers inbound and limited stops only to board passengers outbound, you might get suburban ridership.

They did build a tri-level bridge at 8 mile in '57-'58. Estimates of laying track north pushed the initial cost out of Detroit's budget without help from Oakland county. You just described the 475 and 445 bus routes.

[MrSam]

It wouldn't be; that argument has nothing to do with reality. Let me repeat what I've said before: the main reason the Detroit light rail line won't go north of the fairgrounds property any time in the near future is that Brooks doesn't want it to. Whether the City would want to run it into Oakland County is irrelevant; until the Oakland County government favors light rail in Oakland County, it won't happen.

That's why I say LBROOKS done more to harm metro detroit se region than what 10 coleman youngs have done. That LBROOKS mentality is what caused and created A Coleman Young.

The sad part is Oakland County won't realize how bad LBROOKS 50's mind set policies has hurt se region growth until it corporations relocate to a younger better educated city leaving behind a county full of 60 plus year olds.

This region can't wait until 10 to 15 years when LBROOKS will be gone & gas is $10 a gallon. That's why following that clown is setting the OC up for failure. That's why OC has seen its best days. Who wants to move to a county or city that don't have a good transportation system. Anybody with a brain can see that in 10 to 15 years, thanks to emerging nations GAS WILL BE OVER $10 a gallon. Fresh water also will be a major industry.

Do you really think OC can sustain it self when gas is that high, no mass transit & 40 percent of its resident will be old & on a fixed income? Only a fool will thinks so and at that time the flood gates will pour resident to locations where there is mass transit.

THIS REGION CAN'T wait until it reaches it breaking point & LET ONE OLD RACIST who's scared to adapt to the NEW WORLD STAND IN THE WAY OF SMART DECISIONS and growth when 9 times out of 10 he won't be around in that time to truly see the errors of his ways.

This region is already on life support and don't have the luxury to miss the obvious last boat.

If anything if Lbrooks really loves OC he need to show true leadership and do it for the next generation. That's why Detroit is being smart and building now rather than later, when the time & money won't really be there.

[BrushStart]

Conversations about light rail have primarily centered on a transit line extending into Oakland County. If that's not possible because of outward opposition, what about leaving Oakland County out of the picture? Just forget O.C., leave them out of it. By that I mean, build the initial leg from downtown to Grand Blvd as planned, then connect that stretch to a line that runs down Michigan Avenue. Think about this, Michigan Ave is a densely situated, entirely urban corridor from downtown all the way through downtown Dearborn, Inkster, and end it in downtown Wayne for right now. Keep it entirely in Wayne County, creating a backwards L shape. Eventually, connect it to Ypsilanti and Ann Arbor as soon as Washtenaw signs on.

I think this would have as much success as an Oakland County line. When O.C. sees that the region is leaving them behind, they will be begging to get connected.

[DetroitDad]

While we may move out of the Central Business District, we will be staying along one of the original radial roads that are commonly used for mass transit. We are a family of three, I live Downtown, work closer to New Center, and my wife and I have family or friends along five of the radial streets of Metro Detroit [[Woodward Avenue, Grand River, Michigan Avenue, Gratiot, and East Jefferson). If transit was cleaner, safer, more reliable, and more affordable, I would use three local/light rail lines [[Woodward Avenue, Gratiot, and East Jefferson), one express line on Grand River, and one express line on Michigan Avenue. I would also use a Downtown loop [[People Mover). The frequency I would use all these would obviously go up or down depending on their existence as desirable methods, and how interconnected they are [[why can't I buy a combo People Mover, DDOT, SMART, and light rail card?).

• By cleaner, I mean that I will not take a method of transit that is viewed as undesriable, and looks unattractive [[IE; is not "sexy").
• By safer, I mean that I will not ride a transit vehicle that appears unused, or where disorder and an attitude of not caring is apparent
• By more reliable, I mean that service not only has to be advertised, schedules kept, and wait times low, but vehicle location should also be known, or an exact ETA must be known. Oh, trains and buses must also actually stop at clearly marked stops, and stops should not be too close together, or too far apart. Everything should be orderly and predictable, so I know how long it will take me to get from "Point A" to "Point B".
• By affordable, I mean that fifty cents to two dollars can be considered expensive and unnecessarily if the transit line and method is considered unnecessary or undesirable. Mass transit should foster a desire to ride, and pride in the system. If mass transit is considered a chore by it's potential and actual riders, than it can be written off as a general failure.

[DetroitDad]

Cross Post: http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?t=7464

I started to suggest this in another thread but I wanted to see what people think. It seems that the biggest hurdle facing the successful development of light rail is Oakland County's opposition to it. So, my analytical mind says, why not just leave them out of it? Light rail doesn't need OC to be successful. Keep light rail in Wayne County. Build the the first stretch from the river to Grand Boulevard as planned, then stop. Next, instead of trying to force OC to let it extend north, head west. Build a line that runs down Michigan Avenue all the way to downtown Wayne. The entire corridor is urban and dense from Detroit to downtown Dearborn to Inkster to Wayne, and eventually, even to Ypsilanti and Ann Arbor. Screw Oakland County.

Create a backwards "L" shape. Consider what you would be connecting: downtown Detroit, Corktown, SW Detroit, downtown Dearborn, Greenfield Village, HF Museum, Fairlane Town Center, Ford's headquarters, then Inkster and downtown Wayne. Those hubs are even denser than the OC Woodward stretch would be. Once it was successful, OC would be begging to get the line extended past 8 Mile.

[canuck]

Mr Sam, Brushstart and Detroitdad,

Suburbs will either salivate or foam at the mouth, make them foam at the mouth when they find out it is working for Detroit, then they will salivate and get on the bus to mass transit heaven.

[DetBill]

Some people here have no vision for what is fundamentally needed if we want this city, and its suburbs to be connected. and a way for people to get downtown other than by car. People drive to the outer extremity of the connection and take it to the core,, Any large city has this, we dont,, and we have suffered because of it. Some just dont see the viability of it, because they dont understand what this does, if done properly.. It needs to be efficient, safe and effective. Some homework needs to be done if we are serious about it. If nothing is done. Detroit will be the same , with the same issues, and one can decide if its worth living in this metro area.

[DetroitDad]

Mr Sam, Brushstart and Detroitdad,

Suburbs will either salivate or foam at the mouth, make them foam at the mouth when they find out it is working for Detroit, then they will salivate and get on the bus to mass transit heaven.

I like this. Of course, building out to 8 Mile would also make them easy to get on the bus, right?

[canuck]

I like this. Of course, building out to 8 Mile would also make them easy to get on the bus, right?

It probably would happen given the fat that Detroit has become the undeserving big brother to all surrounding cities. But I think even concentrating on a project that will happen like light rail and that has potential to replicate other lines in the city, woud be a sort of Detroit exclusive. Royal Oak or Birmingham might even want to replicate lines unconnected to Detroit. But the ideal situation is if Detroit follows an urban plan to fit its needs and end the errors of the past. In fact end the car-centric culture that all big cities have made in the 20th century, and for which Detroit was the unfortunate template.

Detroit needs to upset the negative expectations of the region by reinventing itself; by attracting new ideas in urban design, using its built heritage as well as the opportunities afforded by vacant land. Suburban heavy rail is in the cards for the region but only once Detroit manages to become a healthy focus for the region. Maybe once Detroit gets to redesign areas and infrastructures in a novel way will the region want to participate and do more than wear the team jersey. I would say that when light rail happens in several key areas along with a measures to vitalize street activity, small businesses and making downtown very intense and vibrant again, then metro will jump in.

Both the major building owners and the city will have to find a way to end the car oriented commuting that made Detroit lose businesses, residents, and tourists. They will need to think long term and evacuate the hopes of fast profit by attracting small investors and new residents and keeping them.

Extremely harsh penalties for anyone even suggesting a new parking lot such as one year vacation at Guatanamo beach, etc... Just rewriting the rules so that the car addiction that made Detroit Great but then small again doesnt just kill it.