Libertarians bash light rail

[MCP-001]

Pretty disingenious response. The backers of this project did seek transit dollars. The dollars received may go to this project or go to transit projects elsewhere.

There is nothing stopping the powers that be from requesting federal dollars for seeking money that would be beneficial to Detroit. I recommend you start a thread asking why they aren't seeking more federal money for that as opposed to making wild claims that this money could be used for those services.

When you go "into the money that will be picked from our pockets to maintain this system" I would hope that you also address the money that is picked from our pockets to maintain roads and other non-revenue infrastructure.

"Disingenous"?

I must have hit close to the mark to rile you up so much.

Since they were trying to "improve" things, why not focus on something that would be far more beneficial than something for which there is no demand?

I'm pretty sure that the federal money topic has already been done before [[several time, in fact). So why beat a dead horse?

As for your last part, you forget that road users ALREADY pay for the roads through licenses, fees and fuel taxes.

Can the same be said for the buses [[subsidized by the above sources) or the People Mover?

[casscorridor]

I don't think extending the Woodward line into Oakland Co. is that important. It is going all the way to the fairgrounds... Woodward is already a huge freeway-like boulevard and 95+ percent of residents north of Eight Mile have cars, so they can quicky drive to the park-and-ride lot at the fairgrounds to catch the train. I do support an extention to Royal Oak, but that happening will not determin the success of the entire line. It will have minimal impact.

I think a second line is far more important. Perhaps on Michigan Ave. It would connect Downtown, Corktown, parts of Southwest, East Dearborn, Ford HQ, Greenfield Village/Henry Ford, UM-Dearborn and the West Dearborn district.

A real system is comprised of multiple lines connecting the most urban/potentially urban areas of the metro which are closest to the core, not one line spanning the entire length of the Metro, where commuter rail can get the job done quicker and cheaper. Light-rail has a limit to how long a line can be. It is better to have multiple shorter lines to build a cohesive urban core rather than one sprawling long line.

[R8RBOB]

I see that you avoiding answering all of my points.

You are also generous with other people's money! Even when it comes from the biggest Sugar Daddy of them all: Uncle Sam!

I, on the other hand, am not.

I've already pointed out that Detroit can use money in more important areas like Police, Fire and Ambulance Service.

I'll toss the same question to you, why do you feel that public safety is unimportant compared to thie train to nowhere?

Hmm, putting words into my words...interesting.

Being a resident of Detroit, I would not want lack of police, lack of firemen and lack of EMTs. Detroit needs all the money available to keep those services going. They are essential for the city of Detroit.

That said, your programming is in need of an upgrade. You are aware that money geared towards police, fire or EMTs is not going into the train to nowhere yet you are convinced that TPTB can move transportation money towards essential services. They can't. The money is marked for transportation so let's use the money for what it is designated for. And by the way, if the "train to nowhere" was to disappear, the police, the fire and the EMTs will be in the same shitty boat that they are in and this city will still be stuck in the mud.

As for answering your posts, they come off carved in a tree somewhere in Wonderland. Alice, I'm not generous with OPM maybe it's because I don't have any money to be generous with but as I stated before if Detroit don't use the money someone else will.

[EastsideAl]

If we had a purely libratarian form of government we would have no parks, sewers, health care programs and all roads would be heavily tolled and privately owned.

Or, it would give those clamoring for most of those things the most to get off of the complacency and make it happen themselves.

Which is exactly what people did, which is precisely why we evolved the government entities that do these things. People clamored for these things to be done and they "got off of the complacency" to organize, support, run for office, and vote for those who would get these things done.

Does that scare you, people doing something without the involvement of the government?

Does that scare you? Representative democracy and the right of people to organize politically to get things done for the society as a whole?

Do we really have to live through the late 19th and early 20th centuries all over again?

[MCP-001]

Which is exactly what people did, which is precisely why we evolved the government entities that do these things. People clamored for these things to be done and they "got off of the complacency" to organize, support, run for office, and vote for those who would get these things done.



Does that scare you? Representative democracy and the right of people to organize politically to get things done for the society as a whole?

Do we really have to live through the late 19th and early 20th centuries all over again?

Again, where does that entail taking money from my pocket, to pay for your pet program?

[EastsideAl]

Oh, and as far as I know the Department of Transportation doesn't fund schools, fire departments, EMTs, etc. They fund transportation, and if this city or state somehow turns down this money in the name of some sort of libertarian ideological purity, or because libertarians have fooled enough people into thinking that turning it down will somehow help us with policing or vacant houses, then I'm sure some other place will happily take it and Detroit will lose out once again.

[MCP-001]

Oh, and as far as I know the Department of Transportation doesn't fund schools, fire departments, EMTs, etc. They fund transportation, and if this city or state somehow turns down this money in the name of some sort of libertarian ideological purity, or because libertarians have fooled enough people into thinking that turning it down will somehow help us with policing or vacant houses, then I'm sure some other place will happily take it and Detroit will lose out once again.

Okay, let me start again, one more time.

There are MORE pressing problems facing Detroit. It is unable to perform its core function.

Politicians are wasting their time going after resources to address a phantom demand for an issue, rather then the more pressing issues.

If you want to know why people have left Detroit en masse, this "needed" light rail project is a perfect example of misplaced priorities..

[EastsideAl]

Again, where does that entail taking money from my pocket, to pay for your pet program?

Same reason money comes from my pockets to pay for the pet programs of people your side has voted into office. Like programs that are basically nothing but big welfare programs for corporations, or to balance off tax cuts to incredibly rich people.

We have what's called a representative democracy here. You can organize, support and vote for candidates who want the Department of Transportation to fund fire departments and schools, or to abolish the Dept. of Transportation or taxes or whatever altogether. And I will oppose you by organizing, supporting and voting for candidates who believe in the funding and construction of mass transit systems to move large numbers of people around more cheaply and cleanly, while bringing more people, life, and economic activity into our core cities.

[Hermod]

d) had very limited railroad access

Troy is actually the largest city [[in population) in the United States that never had railroad service [[not even a spur line).

The DUR did run through Troy on its way from Royal Oak to Rochester.

Even without I-75, Troy would have developed as the Royal Oak/Clawson area expanded north and Rochester expanded south. Troy was not in the "dairy belt". It was mostly low margin "truck farms". Most of the farmers sold out to developers quite readily.

[rjk]

I don't think extending the Woodward line into Oakland Co. is that important. It is going all the way to the fairgrounds... Woodward is already a huge freeway-like boulevard and 95+ percent of residents north of Eight Mile have cars, so they can quicky drive to the park-and-ride lot at the fairgrounds to catch the train. I do support an extention to Royal Oak, but that happening will not determin the success of the entire line.

How many people in the suburbs do you think are going to drive to the fairgrounds when I-75 is less than a mile away? I certainly wouldn't. I would think for this line to have any chance at success at all it would have to go into the suburbs and specifically RO.

[EastsideAl]

There are MORE pressing problems facing Detroit. It is unable to perform its core function.

I mostly agree with this. But, one more time, this money is not allocated to perform those functions. It is allocated for mass transit, and if we don't take it someone else will. Then we'll be out altogether.

Or, we could use it to try to catch up with nearly every other large city on the planet and begin to build [[or rebuild, if you prefer) a usable rapid transit system that will help us with some of our other needs, like generating more economic activity in our core city and repopulating and revitalizing neighborhoods, while at the same time reducing auto pollutants.

[bailey]

If it does get extended to the suburbs I'll use it daily to get out there to rob, beat and pillage suburbanites.

ok, i just saw this. hilarious.

[MCP-001]

Same reason money comes from my pockets to pay for the pet programs of people your side has voted into office. Like programs that are basically nothing but big welfare programs for corporations, or to balance off tax cuts to incredibly rich people.

We have what's called a representative democracy here. You can organize, support and vote for candidates who want the Department of Transportation to fund fire departments and schools, or to abolish the Dept. of Transportation or taxes or whatever altogether. And I will oppose you by organizing, supporting and voting for candidates who believe in the funding and construction of mass transit systems to move large numbers of people around more cheaply and cleanly, while bringing more people, life, and economic activity into our core cities.

People from "my side"?

I'd love to know who those people are.

I never supported TARP, the "stimulus", CARS, or anything along those lines.

If you can cite exactly where I did, that would be appreciated.

[Detroitnerd]

Troy is actually the largest city [[in population) in the United States that never had railroad service [[not even a spur line).

I'm hardly surprised. It's a sprawling, car-dependent mess now, thanks to the lay-down-the-concrete-and-the-prosperity-will-follow cult. Are you proud of this?

The DUR did run through Troy on its way from Royal Oak to Rochester.

Um, yeah. I think I pointed that out. It had no real stops, unless you want to count a few sidings for sugar beets going up to the refinery in Rochester.

Even without I-75, Troy would have developed as the Royal Oak/Clawson area expanded north and Rochester expanded south. Troy was not in the "dairy belt". It was mostly low margin "truck farms". Most of the farmers sold out to developers quite readily.

But would it have developed into TROY AS WE KNOW IT TODAY?

*crickets chirping*

Hermod, the one thing you fail to acknowledge is that developing upper Troy would have been impossible without I-75 to feed people to it at 50, 60, 70, 80 and 90 miles per hour without traffic lights. It was undeveloped, owned by farmers [[who sold out quite readily) and there is no way in hell that a bunch of two-lane roads, even expanded, with modern signaling added, could handle the job of transporting people from where people lived and worked in 1960 up to South or Square Lake -- or, later, from all over to the 15 million square feet of office space centered along Big Beaver.

First you said it was all developed already. Now I'm supposed to believe you when you say that it would have happened without I-75? Um, nope.

[jt1]

"

Disingenous"?

I must have hit close to the mark to rile you up so much.

Not at all. Using the word disingenious is a sign that someone is riled up? The issue is that you keep deflecting to other arguments why this is a bad thing to do. Now you're falling into the 'they should do nothing unless it has to do with safety, PD or FD. That argument is as logical as the 'they shouldn't give me a parking ticket because there is so much other crime in the city.

Since they were trying to "improve" things, why not focus on something that would be far more beneficial than something for which there is no demand?

Your assumption appears to be that this is the only thing 'they' are working on. Pretty simplistic argument. There are many groups of 'they' and many of 'them' are working on other things beyond this.

I'm pretty sure that the federal money topic has already been done before [[several time, in fact). So why beat a dead horse?

Well you were the one beating it early on in this post insisting that 'they' should use the money for something else. It appears you've finally figured out that this bucket of money can't go to whatever 'they' want to use it for.

As for your last part, you forget that road users ALREADY pay for the roads through licenses, fees and fuel taxes.

So the roads are revenue neutral. Licenses, fees and fuel taxes cover all of the cost of construction and maintenance of roads. Tell me you don't really believe that.

Can the same be said for the buses [[subsidized by the above sources) or the People Mover?

Pointless argument since the roads are heavily subsidized beyond the above sources.

[Bearinabox]

Since it is no longer around, I would call that a failure regardless of the circumstances behind it.

So now explain to us why we should listen to you, when your arguments are based on a definition of the word "failure" that you just made up yourself?

[Lferg]

I usually avoid all things political on this forum but I had to comment on this one.

First, I do understand the need to modernize America, and the trains have to start somewhere. The route from 8 mile to Heart Plaza makes a lot more sense than the train from Tampa to Orlando. I just don't see any benefit to driving 45 minutes, paying to park, pay a fare to get on a train, and then having to find transportation to my final destination upon arrival in Orlando. At least the Detroit rail may actually be used by the locals.

With all that being said, our country is in a recession, unemployment is high, State and Local Governments are broke, and the good old USA is operating at a 1.2 trillion dollar deficit.

Free money? Free to whom? Maybe free to the city of Detroit, compliments of the tax payers throughout the country, including those living and working in Wayne County.

I just can't help but worry that many future generations will be paying for this pet project and believe the federal tax dollars would be much better spent elsewhere.

[Bearinabox]

Free money? Free to whom? Maybe free to the city of Detroit, compliments of the tax payers throughout the country, including those living and working in Wayne County.

I just can't help but worry that many future generations will be paying for this pet project and believe the federal tax dollars would be much better spent elsewhere.

Well, I'm personally grateful that the generations that came before me invested tax money in infrastructure and social programs instead of just cutting taxes for rich people. I think that's pretty much why our country has continued to function for as long as it has, and I'm not optimistic about our future if a lot more of us don't start figuring this out pretty quickly.

[jt1]

=Free money? Free to whom? Maybe free to the city of Detroit, compliments of the tax payers throughout the country, including those living and working in Wayne County.

I just can't help but worry that many future generations will be paying for this pet project and believe the federal tax dollars would be much better spent elsewhere.

You're basing this statement on the belief [[I assume) that if Detroit turns down these dollars they will go to a better cause. The simple fact is that if Detroit turns down these dollars they will go to transportation projects in other cities.

I am fine with changing how gov't operates and ensure that states/cities don't face the 'take it or we'll give it to someone else' non-sense but it is the reality that we face.

Michigan and Detroit have paid for more than their fair share of transit projects througout the country over the years so you;ll have to excuse those of us that think it is about time that there is investment here.

Change how gov't works and I'll support turning away this money otherwise I can't get on board with just giving it up to Minny or Charlotte or NY or Orlando or any other place that is building heavilky subsidized mass transit

[Hermod]

First you said it was all developed already. Now I'm supposed to believe you when you say that it would have happened without I-75? Um, nope.

I didn't say the office buildings and Somerset would have happened. I did say that the subdivisions and strip malls would have been built.

Look at Troy on Google Maps. While there are office complexes at the I-75 interchanges, most of Troy is subdivisions with curving non-through streets. I-75 didn't build that.

[Lferg]

Well, I'm personally grateful that the generations that came before me invested tax money in infrastructure and social programs instead of just cutting taxes for rich people. I think that's pretty much why our country has continued to function for as long as it has, and I'm not optimistic about our future if a lot more of us don't start figuring this out pretty quickly.

Investing money in infrastructure is great! As a country, we should! Again, the problem comes down to the fact our country does not have the money to invest.

Funny how people are so quick to assume tax cuts benefit only the "rich". It would be interesting to see exactly what kind of tax breaks the "private funding" for the light rail will be getting.

[Detroitnerd]

I didn't say the office buildings and Somerset would have happened. I did say that the subdivisions and strip malls would have been built.

So you're saying that I-75 did have an effect on the development of what is Troy as we know it? The suburbs as we know them? My point and our disagreement?

Look at Troy on Google Maps. While there are office complexes at the I-75 interchanges, most of Troy is subdivisions with curving non-through streets. I-75 didn't build that.

Sure it did. What freeways do is they compress time and space. You put your foot on the accelerator, speed up to 50, 60 mph and faster, and you can travel farther in a short amount of time. That is what opened up the northern reaches of Troy to development. Raise the speed limit to 70, and everybody goes 80 and 85, so you can build out farther. You cannot do this with old section-line roads with stoplights.

And once somebody has sped up, traveled 85 miles per hour to get where they live, it becomes easier to have non-through-streets. After all, nobody is really using streets the way you do in a city: They're really drives. And it's the crowning irony: They drive faster than ever to get home, then wall off their neighborhoods from the noise of speeding motorists!

Anyway, why so stubborn, Hermod? Anybody can look at a map and see that I-75 was a "road to nowhere" when it was built.

And after this discussion, let's remove the shroud from this whole "road to nowhere" business. They're not "roads to nowhere." What they actually are is part of a "development plan." That's why the freeways corkscrews through: To ensure maximum development.

And, I suspect that behind the double standard is a prejudice:

We can all get angry about light rail, about traction trusts, about corrupt old Oakman buying up all the land before they laid the light rail, or about putting in a boulevard and streetcar where there was no development [[to spur development) -- and, finally, get angry about restoring light rail service to Woodward Avenue [["There's nothing there!").

But when it comes to expanding Hall Road to six lanes and rebuilding spans in hopes that the "growth machine" gets switched back on, there's no anger, no resentment, no discussion of a waste of federal transportation funds. Ain't that funny?

[Lferg]

You're basing this statement on the belief [[I assume) that if Detroit turns down these dollars they will go to a better cause. The simple fact is that if Detroit turns down these dollars they will go to transportation projects in other cities.

I am fine with changing how gov't operates and ensure that states/cities don't face the 'take it or we'll give it to someone else' non-sense but it is the reality that we face.

Michigan and Detroit have paid for more than their fair share of transit projects througout the country over the years so you;ll have to excuse those of us that think it is about time that there is investment here.

Change how gov't works and I'll support turning away this money otherwise I can't get on board with just giving it up to Minny or Charlotte or NY or Orlando or any other place that is building heavilky subsidized mass transit

No, sadly, I'm not basing that statement on the fact the money will go somewhere else. It has been earmarked for the train and cannot be spent elsewhere. I also stated the use of the money for the Detroit light rail is money far better spent than the Orlando to Tampa train, at least people will use the Detroit train.

I simply believe that when we have to close schools, can't afford to pay our teachers, and entire states are facing bankruptcy, there just may be a better way to invest money that we don't have to begin with.

[Detroitnerd]

Investing money in infrastructure is great! As a country, we should! Again, the problem comes down to the fact our country does not have the money to invest.

It's a question of priorities.

Y'ever notice how nobody says: "The Pentagon is gonna go broke!"

[gnome]

Dnerd, let me get this straight, you say that just like Grand Blvd, that if you build it they will come. You use the Pingree expansion as proof that Light Rail is good for the city; then in the next breath you point to other road expansion as being a negative.

So expansion is good if you say it is and bad if you say so too? Do I have that right?