Libertarians bash light rail

[mogo]

Hmm. Reason TV? Sounds Orwellian. Yep, it is.

If I were to try and convince people that my ideas are correct, I don't think I'd start out with a "journalist" who has been accused of plagiarism several times over. Can anyone back up his claim about the ambulances?

[Detroitnerd]

Of course, Reason magazine represents the Republican wing of the Libertarian party.

[DetroitPole]

Hmm. Reason TV? Sounds Orwellian. Yep, it is.

If I were to try and convince people that my ideas are correct, I don't think I'd start out with a "journalist" who has been accused of plagiarism several times over. Can anyone back up his claim about the ambulances?

Most of the article is nonsense, but the logistical point they hit on the head is dead on: it will be a train to nowhere.

Where the hell are people going to take this thing to if it runs to 8 mile from Hart Plaza? Other than the cultural center to downtown, there is no reason for the average person to ride it. Where is the majority of the region supposed to board it? Why would they board at 8 mile to ride it downtown[[and leave their cars there to get broken into) when they could just fly down Woodward effortlessly and get there in 10 minutes? Are people downtown going to ride it to Forman Mills in Highland Park? Maybe the Hotel Normandy? You Buy We Fry? The vacant fairgrounds?

It is nothing more than elongated People Mover as it stands running from Hart Plaza to 8 Mile. It has to be run to Royal Oak at least. Unfortunately L Brooks called it a luxury and stonewalled any attempts to get it into Oakland county. Then on the other side you have the crew aforementioned in the article that think its going to be some magic bullet, simply connecting poor people to downtown possibly faster.

Sometimes things are so stupid around here I just want to scream.

[BrushStart]

Most of the article is nonsense, but the logistical point they hit on the head is dead on: it will be a train to nowhere.

Where the hell are people going to take this thing to if it runs to 8 mile from Hart Plaza? Other than the cultural center to downtown, there is no reason for the average person to ride it. Where is the majority of the region supposed to board it? Why would they board at 8 mile to ride it downtown[[and leave their cars there to get broken into) when they could just fly down Woodward effortlessly and get there in 10 minutes? Are people downtown going to ride it to Forman Mills in Highland Park? Maybe the Hotel Normandy? You Buy We Fry? The vacant fairgrounds?

It is nothing more than elongated People Mover as it stands running from Hart Plaza to 8 Mile. It has to be run to Royal Oak at least. Unfortunately L Brooks called it a luxury and stonewalled any attempts to get it into Oakland county. Then on the other side you have the crew aforementioned in the article that think its going to be some magic bullet, simply connecting poor people to downtown possibly faster.

Sometimes things are so stupid around here I just want to scream.

Let me put it to you this way... If this region forecloses on building mass transit, I'm leaving. Serisously, I'm out of here.

And, I think I speak for many more than myself.

[Detroitnerd]

Sometimes things are so stupid around here I just want to scream.

When they first built Grand Boulevard, Detroiters asked much the same thing: "Why build that road out there in the middle of nowhere?" Within 30 years, though, the Boulevard, with its roadway and streetcar, helped anchor General Motors, the Fisher Building, the Packard Plant. What we're really talking about here is RESTORING light rail service. And light rail drives development.

After all, if we were all bemoaning building roads to nowhere in the 1950s, there'd have been no suburbs as we know them ...

[BrushStart]

After all, if we were all bemoaning building roads to nowhere in the 1950s, there'd have been no suburbs as we know them ...

Someone should have been bemoaning.

[Hermod]

Someone should have been bemoaning.

The Oakland and Macomb County suburbs were booming long before the expressways. The radial roads were the original post roads. They were widened and paved as traffic demanded. The N-S and E-W roads in the counties were widened and paved as traffic demanded. There was no "road to nowhere" into the counties.

[Detroitnerd]

The Oakland and Macomb County suburbs were booming long before the expressways. The radial roads were the original post roads. They were widened and paved as traffic demanded. The N-S and E-W roads in the counties were widened and paved as traffic demanded. There was no "road to nowhere" into the counties.

I already thought of you chiming in, Hermod. That's why I wrote "suburbs as we know them." Satisfied?

[ghettopalmetto]

The Oakland and Macomb County suburbs were booming long before the expressways. The radial roads were the original post roads. They were widened and paved as traffic demanded. The N-S and E-W roads in the counties were widened and paved as traffic demanded. There was no "road to nowhere" into the counties.

Yeah, it's a good thing they never built the M-53 or M-59 freeways!

Riddle me this: If you don't build any roads to nowhere, then how does the demand happen? I mean, do subdivisions and strip malls always sprout up before the roads, or just some of the time?

[JBMcB]

The other good point they make is that this is $500,000,000 that can be much better spent in other areas. Such as the bankrupt educational system, and underfunded fire and police departments.

The video isn't saying that light rail is a bad idea, just that it isn't the best use of money right now. I happen to agree.

[Detroitnerd]

The other good point they make is that this is $500,000,000 that can be much better spent in other areas. Such as the bankrupt educational system, and underfunded fire and police departments.

The video isn't saying that light rail is a bad idea, just that it isn't the best use of money right now. I happen to agree.

Yeah, except that the purest of the Reason-style libertarians don't believe in spending any public money on education or even fire and police.

[BrushStart]

The other good point they make is that this is $500,000,000 that can be much better spent in other areas. Such as the bankrupt educational system, and underfunded fire and police departments.

The video isn't saying that light rail is a bad idea, just that it isn't the best use of money right now. I happen to agree.

If it was 500 million from the City's empty coffers, I would be inclined to agree, but, it's not. It's private money coupled with federal transit funding. Use it, or lose it.

On top of that, throwing that kind of money at city services is a short-sighted usage. Once the money is used up, things will go right back to the way they are. Instead, use the money to build something meaningful and lasting that will attract investment and residents. Those people will pay taxes and allow the city to add police, fire, and schools.

This whole light rail debate is as ridiculous as the 2nd bridge to Canada debacle. Everyone is complaining, yet it costs them nothing. Here, light rail is basically being given to the residents of Michigan, yet people want to crap all over it. Same with the bridge, either Matty pays for it or the nation of Canada pays for it, so what's the problem? Just give the thumbs up and get something awesome for free. It's unbelievable.

[mwilbert]

There are all these buses that run down Woodward now that go past New Center. I have to think that some of the people on those buses would use the light rail, even if there were no new transit riders if there were light rail, which seems pretty unlikely.

[manualshift]

Most of the article is nonsense, but the logistical point they hit on the head is dead on: it will be a train to nowhere.

Where the hell are people going to take this thing to if it runs to 8 mile from Hart Plaza? Other than the cultural center to downtown, there is no reason for the average person to ride it. Where is the majority of the region supposed to board it? Why would they board at 8 mile to ride it downtown[[and leave their cars there to get broken into) when they could just fly down Woodward effortlessly and get there in 10 minutes? Are people downtown going to ride it to Forman Mills in Highland Park? Maybe the Hotel Normandy? You Buy We Fry? The vacant fairgrounds?

It is nothing more than elongated People Mover as it stands running from Hart Plaza to 8 Mile. It has to be run to Royal Oak at least. Unfortunately L Brooks called it a luxury and stonewalled any attempts to get it into Oakland county. Then on the other side you have the crew aforementioned in the article that think its going to be some magic bullet, simply connecting poor people to downtown possibly faster.

Sometimes things are so stupid around here I just want to scream.

Area around the state fair has been proposed as a site for a major shopping center.

The stops on a light rail line will be fixed. People will create and improve business around these stops to take advantage of all types of people that choose to ride the rail.

Also, while this might stop at eight mile now, it does have to start somewhere. While you might not believe it a number of people take smart bus downtown and out of town on Woodward.

[rhythmc]

I love these two posts.

Area around the state fair has been proposed as a site for a major shopping center.

The stops on a light rail line will be fixed. People will create and improve business around these stops to take advantage of all types of people that choose to ride the rail.

Also, while this might stop at eight mile now, it does have to start somewhere. While you might not believe it a number of people take smart bus downtown and out of town on Woodward.

I'm not sure why all the detractors of the rail plan have the tone that the project will only be a single line forever or that the whole system is supposed to magically appear. As stated in the quoted post above, businesses seeing the potential for increased revenue will move to bound the transit line or improve what is already there. Therefore, people will not simply bypass the communities to reach Hart Plaza or the stadiums [[as the video tried to "cleverly" edit to make it seem). They'll use it for other points of interest as they become available. The system will expand with time.

Then they try to drag out the stat [[I'm not sure where they got it) that says that lower income people would prefer a bus to get them to and from wherever it is they need to go. I'm not sure that could be remotely true in Detroit with two highly disjointed bus systems meant to ferry people in and around the city as well as from the city to far-flung 'burbs for jobs. SMART and DDOT need to merge and work along with the rail line to make getting to and from destinations easier for the people they used as examples.

[

I would look at the light rail project like a building a old college football stadium. Let me use the "Big House" as an example. When Michigan Stadium was built, it was a hole in a ground. It was small because there no great demand to put tens of thousands in the stadium to watch Michigan football. As the years went by and the teams got better more and more fans went to the stadium and the university administrators realized that the stadium was too small for their fanbase so they started adding on to the stadium and they added on some more and they are still adding on to this very day.

My point is projects like the light rail must start off small because no one knows the future that awaits Detroit and the metro area but to make excuses why not to do it is the reason why the region is in the shape it is now. If they build the rail to the SF grounds and the rail catches on then perhaps L. Brooks or the next executive might want it going through RO but there has to be start but to call it a train to nowhere is a product of the hate that divides Detroit from its suburbs.

Additionally, if the lines prove to be successful, you can only expect that more lines and stops will follow. Look at the DC Metro Rail System. It is still growing.

Charlie, and people like him, seem to be stuck on conventional means and methods to turn Detroit around. Taking what is essentially a gift and spending it on normal operations is very short sighted and will not help the city. Kind of a chicken and egg thing, I know. If you look to places like the Bronx and Harlem, NY, those places fell hard. Many of the better off families left for greener pastures. Suddenly, AIDS/HIV rates increased in addition to the level of poverty. The problem is that the people affecting those stats had always been there, much like Detroit and the school scores dropping precipitously as more well off families have headed to the 'burbs and out of state. The city of Detroit needs to grow. So, an infusion of something drastically different needs to be attempted, at least. At this point, radical change is necessary.

What would happen if the rail line attracted people to live in areas served by the rail line who would have otherwise chosen to live in the suburbs [[black, white, hispanic, asian)? What if they stayed even after they had children and sent those children to DPS? What if the parents were as involved in DPS as they would be in the burbs [[assuming they would be involved)? Like magic, you've probably got the beginnings to a better DPS.

This continues to smell of protectionism on the part of the 'burbs and their boosters to keep what they have and get more, some of that being at Detroit's expense.

[R8RBOB]

I love these two posts.



I'm not sure why all the detractors of the rail plan have the tone that the project will only be a single line forever or that the whole system is supposed to magically appear. As stated in the quoted post above, businesses seeing the potential for increased revenue will move to bound the transit line or improve what is already there. Therefore, people will not simply bypass the communities to reach Hart Plaza or the stadiums [[as the video tried to "cleverly" edit to make it seem). They'll use it for other points of interest as they become available. The system will expand with time.

Then they try to drag out the stat [[I'm not sure where they got it) that says that lower income people would prefer a bus to get them to and from wherever it is they need to go. I'm not sure that could be remotely true in Detroit with two highly disjointed bus systems meant to ferry people in and around the city as well as from the city to far-flung 'burbs for jobs. SMART and DDOT need to merge and work along with the rail line to make getting to and from destinations easier for the people they used as examples.



Additionally, if the lines prove to be successful, you can only expect that more lines and stops will follow. Look at the DC Metro Rail System. It is still growing.

Charlie, and people like him, seem to be stuck on conventional means and methods to turn Detroit around. Taking what is essentially a gift and spending it on normal operations is very short sighted and will not help the city. Kind of a chicken and egg thing, I know. If you look to places like the Bronx and Harlem, NY, those places fell hard. Many of the better off families left for greener pastures. Suddenly, AIDS/HIV rates increased in addition to the level of poverty. The problem is that the people affecting those stats had always been there, much like Detroit and the school scores dropping precipitously as more well off families have headed to the 'burbs and out of state. The city of Detroit needs to grow. So, an infusion of something drastically different needs to be attempted, at least. At this point, radical change is necessary.

What would happen if the rail line attracted people to live in areas served by the rail line who would have otherwise chosen to live in the suburbs [[black, white, hispanic, asian)? What if they stayed even after they had children and sent those children to DPS? What if the parents were as involved in DPS as they would be in the burbs [[assuming they would be involved)? Like magic, you've probably got the beginnings to a better DPS.

This continues to smell of protectionism on the part of the 'burbs and their boosters to keep what they have and get more, some of that being at Detroit's expense.

I'm glad you like the post but one of those post belongs to me..LOL. Posters like me need the credit.....

[rhythmc]

I'm glad you like the post but one of those post belongs to me..LOL. Posters like me need the credit.....

My mistake. I totally mispulled the quote.

[rsa.313]

Other than the cultural center to downtown, there is no reason for the average person to ride it.

i guess the 60,000 people that live along the route aren't "average." or the students going from one CCS campus to the other. or the workers that might use it to catch lunch outside of walking distance. or commuters using amtrack wanting to get downtown.

Sometimes things are so stupid around here I just want to scream.

yeah, kinda like people using the argument that if it doesn't serve them it's a stupid idea.

[EastsideAl]

Most of the article is nonsense, but the logistical point they hit on the head is dead on: it will be a train to nowhere.

Where the hell are people going to take this thing to if it runs to 8 mile from Hart Plaza? Other than the cultural center to downtown, there is no reason for the average person to ride it. Where is the majority of the region supposed to board it? Why would they board at 8 mile to ride it downtown[[and leave their cars there to get broken into) when they could just fly down Woodward effortlessly and get there in 10 minutes? Are people downtown going to ride it to Forman Mills in Highland Park? Maybe the Hotel Normandy? You Buy We Fry? The vacant fairgrounds?

It is nothing more than elongated People Mover as it stands running from Hart Plaza to 8 Mile. It has to be run to Royal Oak at least. Unfortunately L Brooks called it a luxury and stonewalled any attempts to get it into Oakland county. Then on the other side you have the crew aforementioned in the article that think its going to be some magic bullet, simply connecting poor people to downtown possibly faster.

Sometimes things are so stupid around here I just want to scream.

Well, except for all the people who live between 8 Mile and downtown. And all the people who currently use the Woodward bus, which is the city's busiest and often SRO.

But then most of those people are invisible and of no consequence to LeDuff and some of the folks north of 8 Mile, who can only think about where they are going to park their cars.

The main reason the line goes to "nowhere" [[as suburbanites and clueless - as usual - libertarians would have it) is because some of the folks north of 8 Mile in Oakland Co. have given any attempt at regional cooperation the big "f-u darkies" finger once again.

[Fnemecek]

Most of the article is nonsense, but the logistical point they hit on the head is dead on: it will be a train to nowhere.

Where the hell are people going to take this thing to if it runs to 8 mile from Hart Plaza?

It will go the same places that the Woodward Ave. bus currently goes, except that it will be faster and cheaper to operate.

[Scottathew]

Like others said, true libertarians don't even believe that government should have public education, fire departments, or public roads. Of course they're going to object.

I agree with others, this rail system needs to go beyond Woodward. At the very least it needs to get to Royal Oak. However, I think the long term goal needs to be Pontiac. Also, it needs to be elevated. The initial leg is going to be on-street, and on-street means that it will be slower than going by car.

In New York the subway is often FASTER than going by car because subways don't compete with street traffic. That's not to say the M1-Rail has to be below ground, above ground is just as acceptable if it is elevated above the streets.

I work in the Campus Martius area and if [[elevated) M1 Rail was built up to Royal Oak, I would seriously be looking at Royal Oak for my next home.

I would love to become a one car family. It would put $400 a month back into my pocket [[car payment + insurance, not counting fuel due to ticket fares).

[R8RBOB]

Like others said, true libertarians don't even believe that government should have public education, fire departments, or public roads. Of course they're going to object.

I agree with others, this rail system needs to go beyond Woodward. At the very least it needs to get to Royal Oak. However, I think the long term goal needs to be Pontiac. Also, it needs to be elevated. The initial leg is going to be on-street, and on-street means that it will be slower than going by car.

In New York the subway is often FASTER than going by car because subways don't compete with street traffic. That's not to say the M1-Rail has to be below ground, above ground is just as acceptable if it is elevated above the streets.

I work in the Campus Martius area and if [[elevated) M1 Rail was built up to Royal Oak, I would seriously be looking at Royal Oak for my next home.

I would love to become a one car family. It would put $400 a month back into my pocket [[car payment + insurance, not counting fuel due to ticket fares).

They could rework the traffic system in which the light rail will have right of way. There will be no stopping at red lights....LOL. Elevated, which would be nice to have in Detroit would be too, too costly.

Let me repeat what I've said before: the main reason the Detroit light rail line won't go north of the fairgrounds property any time in the near future is that Brooks doesn't want it to.

People must remember that Brooks Patterson has said on many occasions that loves sprawl. He is on record saying that any rail out of Detroit would be a waste of money and that we needed more freeways. The only way Oakland County and by extension L. Brooks Patterson would embrace light-rail going through Oakland Country is that a number of the companies that call OC home like Delphi, Guardian Industries, Chrysler did a 180 and relocate their base of operations on the other side of 8Mile. If more OC residents had to travel south with the ones that are currently making that drive then the OC overlords may have a different view toward light-rail. Until then, they can stall and stall for years.

[Detroitnerd]

In New York the subway is often FASTER than going by car because subways don't compete with street traffic. That's not to say the M1-Rail has to be below ground, above ground is just as acceptable if it is elevated above the streets.

We often get into discussions about "elevated rail," and the consensus is that elevated rail will not work.

It costs many times more per mile to build.

Every stop would have to have elevators.

So few governments are building elevateds that you couldn't take advantage of the economies of scale that other governments can using ground rail.

It would delay implementation and therefore hurt the regional economy with a long and costly build-out.

Many of the worries about light rail in traffic can simply be dealt with by giving the train right of way and control over traffic signaling, which is much cheaper and pretty much the way a lot of other cities do it.

Detroit was based on the streetcar, the light rail of its day. Let's RESTORE the service Detroit used to have, then talk about going over or under for greater speed.

Also, one of the reasons a lot of people want elevateds is so that rail service does not interfere with auto traffic. We need to get past this mind-set if we're ever to be serious about providing mass transit.

Let's restore Detroit's light rail service first, as a MUST; then, later, we can discuss where we should have light rail service go underground for speed.

[mwilbert]

The other good point they make is that this is $500,000,000 that can be much better spent in other areas. Such as the bankrupt educational system, and underfunded fire and police departments.

1. Please not the educational system.
2. This wouldn't just be a transfer from one purpose to another, but a transfer from capital spending to operating budget. The two really shouldn't be fungible.
3. The money isn't available for other purposes. No doubt Reason would be happy to have the federal government operate completely differently than it actually does, but given the way it actually works, this seems to me a reasonable way to spend transportation money

[MCP-001]

Hmm. Reason TV? Sounds Orwellian. Yep, it is.

If I were to try and convince people that my ideas are correct, I don't think I'd start out with a "journalist" who has been accused of plagiarism several times over. Can anyone back up his claim about the ambulances?

The story was simultaneously carried by Channel 2 and The Detroit News.

Yahoo News also picked it up as well

People keep forgetting that DETROIT HAD A LIGHT RAIL SYSTEM UNTIL THE 1950'S.

It failed.

[[Guess what, part of it also went up Woodward).

Even assuming that this project does get off the ground and is built, who will they transport? Where will they take them? Work? Shopping? Why won't they prefer to use the freeways?

With declining population and revenue [[Rob Bobb of all people is asking for a $332-million handout), not only is the People Mover analogy correct, but because of the questions above, light rail will never succeed.

And when politicians pull out the "We must educate the public" argument [[2:43) hold on to your wallets!

This means that they don;t have a clue either.

$500-million can be spent on more important matters than making a few people happy.