What can we do to deal with the beggars all over Detroit?

[Gistok]

If any of you go out west to visit a National Park, you will see signs warning you not to feed the bears. Fed bears have a reason to return. If you don't feed them they will go away.

Unfortunately the homeless don't do hibranation too well in the winter... just ask the human popsicle at the bottom of the Roosevelt Warehouse elevator shaft....

I usually get away from panhandlers by talking excitedly in German to them in a loud voice... they're momentarily stunned... for just long enough for me to walk away...

[fryar]

If the panhandlers were truly hungry it would be a different story. There are places where they can get free food. They don't want to be given food, they want cash. Many of them get SSI checks which are used for booze & drugs, & supplement with panhandling. Retirees on social security are not getting a cost of living raise again this year. This sucks! Take the $ away from the drunks & addicts & give it to people who have worked, paid into social security, & paid income tax all their lives.

It's probably true that a lot of these folks have made, in one sense or another, a lifestyle choice, but another probably valid stereotype for some of them is the person who just kind of lost their way after Nam or something. I would agree that it's not helpful to take someone like that and provide them with the means to buy alcohol and drugs, but I wouldn't want to just cut them loose, and putting them out of sight is also a little too much for me. I want lots of shelters, counseling and soup kitchens.

[Pingu]

I think there is a bit more to the issue than that, but your blunt & simple declaration has a good deal of merit, in my view.

And maybe it's no more than just a big "play-god" ego-trip on my part, but when one of these guys approaches you, it's not threatening at all, it's like everything slows down to your pace, and you have the initiative. And it's not like this is a new experience at all, we've seen our parents deal with it a million times.

Shit, at school one day, we saw a film about Brazilian children scrounging through the dump to find just enough to live on for one day more. So that night, we go to Ron's Steak House, and there's a big line to get in, and there's this poor little girl selling paper flowers to the people waiting, and my dad just gives her this big blow-off. And on the way there on the radio was Sam and Dave singing "Hold On". And the whole thing made me sick.

[canuck]

Reading comprehension seems to be an issue with you. I didn't say they "should" be euthanized or incarcerated, I merely suggested those were likely the only real solutions to the rather large class of professional bum we have here. since it would be absurd to think that we, as a society, would condone the mass extermination of people or, as a region full of raging teabaggers, pay for the life long incarceration of these failures at life, then ignoring them and not giving them money is the best solution to the problem. Which is what i do on a daily basis. Unfortunately too many others don't [[which simply exacerbates the problem) and then they wring their hands over what to do about the homeless around downtown.

A lot of the failures of which you speak either fought for your country, your own succesful ass so to speak. Some of these failures lost a loved one or two, their job, their confidence etc...So dont give them money, just dont feel all guilty about it, I sure as hell dont give money to someone who needs it for drugs or just makes a business of it.

On the other hand, if you do manage to build a program to euthanize them, turn it into a lucrative thing, make soylent green outta them. Please recycle and reuse.

[Kevgoblue]

If the panhandlers were truly hungry it would be a different story. There are places where they can get free food. They don't want to be given food, they want cash. Many of them get SSI checks which are used for booze & drugs, & supplement with panhandling. Retirees on social security are not getting a cost of living raise again this year. This sucks! Take the $ away from the drunks & addicts & give it to people who have worked, paid into social security, & paid income tax all their lives.

Are you implying that no one who is homeless ever worked and paid into social security? That everybody who is homeless is a drunk drug addict? How about the war vets who came back all fu%#ed up and couldn't adjust back into society? And what do these unfortunate souls [[and if you disagree that they are, would you like to trade places with them?) have to do with the CPI not going up to trigger a raise in SSI?
How do we take the money away from the "drunks and addicts"? Are you proposing that we kick the bums off the freeway onramp and give grandma a sign that says "Hungry Senior. Will work for food. God Bless"?

[fryar]

does no one understand the use of the absurd to illustrate a point?

Nah, I get that. The kid glove treatment it ain't, but it's an absurdly objective statement to make that you can a) provide some constructive means of addressing, managing and engaging this issue proactively, b) stick your head in the sand and accept the outcome of inaction [[or at best, reaction, and that's why being pro-active is the ultimate cheesy self-description for your resume, folks), or c) implement the final solution to the beggar problem. Aside from some details, these are the alternatives, plain and simple.

Not to project onto your statement, but were I to make that point, it would be to highlight the predictable FAIL that results from closing all of those mental institutions. There was a rash of that across the country, and it boggles the mind, but there you have it - after all, if I can't save my portion of the tax bill that pays for those institutions, I'll have to wait that much longer to buy that big-screen TV.

It boggles the mind because c) is out the door, certainly, and b), well, is that what we want? So a) it is, right?

As a disclaimer, this is a reference to what Bailey probably ill-advisedly called the "professional beggar", somebody who is mentally ill or something. This isn't really about a family riding the bus to a food pantry.

All of that said, I imagine there are systems in place to deal with these folks that have evolved in the absence of the mental clinics, maybe some church groups and such, maybe the shrub's faith-based initiatives funded these well and allowed them to grow, and they could be just as good or better, for all I know.

If I had to take a stab at it, my guess would be there's no enforcement. After all, what do other communities, including many suburbs, do to alleviate this issue? I don't know the details, but clearly they process beggars in some fashion in order to minimize that issue. I imagine Detroit simply doesn't have the police for this.

We can start a volunteer auxiliary police department in some areas, and have this be one of the things "on the agenda," as it were. Again, I certainly should think there are groups in place that are willing and able to help these folks, it's really just a matter of "channeling" them in that direction; my heart bleeds just fine.

As another idea, off the top of my head, what would happen if a, please excuse the term, but "bum" waltzed into Greektown Casino, say, and sat down at the blackjack table? "Sir sir," for example. It's not fair to Greektown Casino, maybe, but I wonder if you couldn't manipulate the system, in the absence of additional cops, by giving these guys a couple of Greektown chips. I'm just throwing that up to see if it sticks, but if you try to picture that happening, what are they going to do? They're going to do something, right? But is it just going to be kicking him out on his @$$? I don't imagine they'd let him play, he's probably kind of smelly and off-putting to a lot of people. But at the same time, they have to have at least some sensitivity to civil rights issues, right? They just might "channel" him into the appropriate systems.

Probably not the right idea, but I thought I'd throw it up there and see if it sticks.

[DetroitPlanner]

Unfortunately the homeless don't do hibranation too well in the winter... just ask the human popsicle at the bottom of the Roosevelt Warehouse elevator shaft....

We are not talking about homeless folks. We are talking about in-your-face agressive and obnoxious beggars. Many beggars are not living on the streets but do this to have tax-free income.

[fryar]

So that night, we go to Ron's Steak House, and there's a big line to get in, and there's this poor little girl selling paper flowers to the people waiting, and my dad just gives her this big blow-off.

Yeah, I've been in situations like that, and it's pretty callous behavior. It's truly unfortunate that this is the best people can sometimes come up with, and I do wonder about my friends or family when they pull stuff like this.

[fryar]

Wikipedia's article entitled Squeegee Man argues that Giuliani told the police to arrest these guys, and so far, they have not come back in significant numbers. This is all about police enforcement.

And I don't mean to say that the Vietnam Vet who couldn't integrate back into society should be jailed and then we're done with it. But I'm fairly certain that I couldn't talk him into getting help over a $5 foot-long at Subway. If the police pick him up, hold him for however long they're allowed to without charging him, and call social services or what-have-you [[I'm not knowledgeable about what's out there), it gets the guy some help.

[1KielsonDrive]

If the panhandlers were truly hungry it would be a different story. There are places where they can get free food. They don't want to be given food, they want cash. Many of them get SSI checks which are used for booze & drugs, & supplement with panhandling. Retirees on social security are not getting a cost of living raise again this year. This sucks! Take the $ away from the drunks & addicts & give it to people who have worked, paid into social security, & paid income tax all their lives.

Another bitcher, moaner, groaner. You take a minor problem [[being appproached by panhandlers) and elevate it to a major quality of life and law and order issue. Oh woe is me, I have a poor person asking for a few bucks. What a bunch of cry babies. Your elected politicians have their hands in your pockets for more dollars in a day than these poor people get from you in a lifetime.

[wolverine]

Another bitcher, moaner, groaner. You take a minor problem [[being appproached by panhandlers) and elevate it to a major quality of life and law and order issue. Oh woe is me, I have a poor person asking for a few bucks. What a bunch of cry babies. Your elected politicians have their hands in your pockets for more dollars in a day than these poor people get from you in a lifetime.

I don't know... mittengal has a point. In some places it's actually difficult to prove whether homelessness actually exists. That was basically Chicago's justification after they did their count of the homeless. About a dozen homeless people counted in one day in a city of 2.8 million residents. These were people who didn't have a place to stay or had not eaten a meal in over a day. As I mentioned earlier the number was contested by several organizations, but the city was never proven wrong in their numbers. I can't say for sure whether I've encountered those twelve people on my walks to work, but I'm going to say highly unlikely. Now the city is focusing on moving families out of shelters and into actual apartments.

Some people just want to be let be, and there's no shame in that. All we can hope is that the system is working and these people are finding their way back to a bed and a warm meal at night.

[BrushStart]

There is no possible solution to this problem under the current federal laws and constitutional interpretation. Most of the local laws, ordinances, and prohibitions against panhandling, loitering, etc have been struck down by the courts as unconstitutional. Prior to the civil rights movement, it was standard practice to round up the mentally ill and indigent people on the street, and send them to institutions that were designed to deal with people suffering from various disorders and issues that caused them to be incapable or unwilling to care for themselves.

Under current federal law, there is no legal way to keep mentally ill or indigent people in any type of institution against their will, unless they have been convicted of a crime and sentenced under standard guidelines.

Detroit, like every other city or town in America, has no authority or ability to do anything to stop the street beggars. As is the case with most of the social issues faced in this city, it is an American problem, not just a Detroit problem.

This issue presents a big dilemma for American civil law, liberties, and freedoms. Do we have the right to confine mentally ill or indigent people against their will? Where do we draw the line between their right to constantly violate basic civil ordinances and acceptable codes of conduct, and our right to not have to deal with their petty crimes and harassment on a daily basis?

From a strict legal point of view, it does seem quite draconian to confine a person to a mental institution for petty crimes like shoplifting, public urination, loitering, panhandling, verbal harassment, and vandalism, but when you have a consistent violator of these laws who is impeding the rights of residents and business owners to freely live their lives without constant harassment, there is a valid question about which person is deserving of their rights, and which person has abused them.

From a liberty standpoint, individuals who present a danger to themselves or others may be involuntarily committed. The legal standard is "by clear and convincing evidence." Today, I walked by a man stumbling down the middle of Larned at 1 pm having a conversation with several people who did not exist. Obviously, this man's state of schizophrenic hallucination would render him committed under the standard. Of course, the question arises: Where is he to be committed?

While the proposal I set out earlier in this thread did not require involuntary commitment, but rather encouraged people to participate in programs based on the lure of good food and comfortable shelter, some people need to be committed for their own benefit. They do not deserve to be on the street where they can get hit by a car, robbed, or overdose attempting to self-medicate. This is no way to live, especially if one is mentally impaired. It is an egregious failure of our society to not care for the mentally and physically disabled. In a time of so-called enlightenment, our inability to offer the most basic support for such individuals is draconian.

Money should be appropriated to build facilities for those who need mental health treatment, even if it means temporary commitment. There should also be facilities to to care for all the other homeless to provide food and shelter, medical treatment, drug rehab, education, and job training. Allowing people to remain on the street addicted to drugs, begging for money, and committing petty crimes will only wind them up in jail and stuck in the spider's web known as the court system, costing millions of unproductive tax dollars and burdening our already overloaded justice system.

This is not about fixing problems; it is about fixing people.

[Ravine]

Lightening the mood a bit-- although I am serious about this suggestion-- I wonder why some of the long-time homeless, around here, don't take off for a place with a warmer climate. Being homeless sucks, for anybody, and that is true no matter who you blame or how much compassion you do, or don't,feel. It seems as though being homeless would be a lot more manageable in Tennessee, for instance, or even further south. The winters in Michigan are ruthless. Hell, the wind on Fort Street will be blowing, like a face full of ice, in a few more weeks.
It seems, to me, that a good plan would be to gather up enough hand-out cash to get a nice bottle, and then continue to beg until getting a few bucks more. Do that for about a week, and presto, you are more than half-way to being able to buy a bus ticket. Seriously, it seems like it would be a big relief, for one of those folks, to alight into a warmer place, and know that freezing half to death will no longer be a four-month-long part of their year.

[East Detroit]

Yes, however, as Danny pointed out [[you know, before he was made fun of), many of the homeless are not of the right mind in the first place.

Personally, I was hoping we could do something about the hipster problem, first.
They are more annoying to my eye.

[Ravine]

Yes, however, as Danny pointed out [[you know, before he was made fun of), many of the homeless are not of the right mind in the first place.

Personally, I was hoping we could do something about the hipster problem, first.
They are more annoying to my eye.

What a relief, to read your post. Being a 35-year resident of Detroit, lord knows that I am very tired of being hit up for cash every time I get out of my car or walk more than a quarter-block. It is tiresome, and I've griped about it plenty, even right here inside of DY. I have to constantly remind myself that the one who is really having the hard time is the one who is begging, and that my annoyance, while sometimes justifiable, is fleeting. After all, I'm the one getting into my car and driving away.
[[Detroit Flashback: Except for the time I stopped at the gas station at W. Chicago & Hubbell, at 3:30 AM, to buy some milk for my then-little kids. I saw absolutely nobody, anywhere around, and I pulled my Cavalier right up to the service-window of the locked station. Too bad, that I pulled the passenger side up to the window and left the car running while I hopped out. Too bad for me, that is; not so bad for the person who magically appeared from outta nowhere and cheerfully sped off in my car. And, I won't admit that I-- for reasons which I would explain if I had any that made some sense, even to me-- actually ran after the car, hollering, "Hey!! Stop!!")
But anyway, yeah, the hipsters.
It's one thing to be down & out; sometimes, people are thrown from life's train and just never manage to get it together enough to re-board. But, the goddam hipsters, that whole persona & look is measured and deliberate, the result of a choice, so it is no burden on one's conscience to just flat-out despise the little absinthe-sipping poseurs.
Editor's Note: It's not as though they actually even know what the hell absinthe is. Knowing that, or actually enjoying it, is way beside the point, with the point being that you don't spend $85 on a pair of shades and burn 15 minutes, in front of a mirror at home, on selecting just the right scarf to "casually" throw, in precisely perfect hipster fashion, over your neck & shoulders and then embarrass yourself by drinking a goddam Budweiser or a double-shot of Johnnie Walker Red, y'know.

[gnome]

...It seems as though being homeless would be a lot more manageable in Tennessee, for instance, or even further south. The winters in Michigan are ruthless. Hell, the wind on Fort Street will be blowing, like a face full of ice, in a few more weeks.
It seems, to me, that a good plan would be to gather up enough hand-out cash to get a nice bottle, and then continue to beg until getting a few bucks more. Do that for about a week, and presto, you are more than half-way to being able to buy a bus ticket...

You are asking folks who have proven they lack the 'long-term planning' gene to start planning. What's next, asking them to start their IRA accounts?

[Ravine]

It's about survival instinct and/or, at the least, the drive to up-grade one's comfort level. Those are, y'know, whatchamacallem, basic biological imperatives, or somethin,' and mammals with even less brain-power than the likes of, oh, just picking a name out of a hat, Frankie Darcell are capable of putting that tiny thought-train together.
And, keep in mind that some of those homeless folks are not necessarily all that mentally damaged in the first place.

[stasu1213]

Las Vegas has beggars on Las Vegas Blvd at certain times in the morning. I had my Detroit tee shirt on and one of the beggers had asked me what side of town I live on. Seeing the puzzled look on my face he had informed me that he used to live in the Cass Corridor and had moved out to Vegas 10 years ago. How I handle panhandlers is to have some pocket change so I could give the women and the older beggars some. I never pull out my wallet for anyone. I would tell a younger man that I am not hiring when he ask me for money. One older black gentlemen had begged me for money one New Years eve. I had given him a couple of dollars. 5 months later that same beggar beckoned me wait up for him while he walked behind me. I had told him that I didnt have any money. He had pulled out a couple of dollars from his pocket and repaid me then walked away. He must had recognized me from that New Years Eve night. I to the money to church at put it in the collection plate praying for the Lord to bless that man.

[1KielsonDrive]

I don't know... mittengal has a point. In some places it's actually difficult to prove whether homelessness actually exists. That was basically Chicago's justification after they did their count of the homeless. About a dozen homeless people counted in one day in a city of 2.8 million residents. These were people who didn't have a place to stay or had not eaten a meal in over a day. As I mentioned earlier the number was contested by several organizations, but the city was never proven wrong in their numbers. I can't say for sure whether I've encountered those twelve people on my walks to work, but I'm going to say highly unlikely. Now the city is focusing on moving families out of shelters and into actual apartments.

Some people just want to be let be, and there's no shame in that. All we can hope is that the system is working and these people are finding their way back to a bed and a warm meal at night.

If you want to be let be, then tell the person who's approaching you exactly that. Stop all of this nonsense about being approached as a major problem. Euthanasia and incarceration? Law enforcement? I get more spam and unsolicited phone calls in a day than I get approached by street people, homeless or otherwise, in a month. This is a non-issue unless you have no life to begin with, and no place to focus your anger and no desire to improve our society. Like I said before, go to a shelter and volunteer. You might actually see the problems first hand and do something constructive.

[1KielsonDrive]

I suspect that most of this anger towards people approaching you on the street is misdirected because you don't know exactly what to do and feel helpless to change the situation. Don't take it out on that person. Do something besides condemning and yelling. Give back. If not to that person [[not a good idea in terms of money), give to a social agency. The rich ass MF's in our society get more money from you in a day than street people get from you in a lifetime. They don't happen to be in your face. But, they're surely in the face of your government and elected representatives. If not in person, by proxy - expensive lobbyists.

[guito13]

I was walking to lunch one day [[Ren Cen to Greektown) when i was approached by a man [[Quite large, 6'3") and a woman was not to far away from him. He gave me a speech about how he was trying to raise money for his son to go to basketball camp [[or something like that). He was loud and very animated also the lady was also yelling towards me. I politely told him "Not today" but to him that was not a good answer, as he continued pestering me. I told him "No" again. At this point he started tapping me on the shoulder and eventually it was more than a tap. I reached into my pocket and pulled out my phone and advised him that i was going to call law enforcement. Luckily for him, he backed down at that point as if he became more violent to the point where i felt my safety/life was threatened I would have reached under my shirt and grabbed something else

[1KielsonDrive]

I was walking to lunch one day [[Ren Cen to Greektown) when i was approached by a man [[Quite large, 6'3") and a woman was not to far away from him. He gave me a speech about how he was trying to raise money for his son to go to basketball camp [[or something like that). He was loud and very animated also the lady was also yelling towards me. I politely told him "Not today" but to him that was not a good answer, as he continued pestering me. I told him "No" again. At this point he started tapping me on the shoulder and eventually it was more than a tap. I reached into my pocket and pulled out my phone and advised him that i was going to call law enforcement. Luckily for him, he backed down at that point as if he became more violent to the point where i felt my safety/life was threatened I would have reached under my shirt and grabbed something else

Okay, you did what you had to do in that situation. But, how often do those types of situations arise? I've been on the streets of Detroit for years. Also, San Francisco and San Diego - much, much worse than Detroit. I've had confrontations and been jumped - never in Detroit. That's a problem. But to consider incarcerating and killing people because you or I have had an angry, even ugly and dangerous confrontation, is ridiculous. To apply our anger at all street people because of a few incidents is ridiculous.

[kryptonite]

I have been approached by panhandlers in Detroit, Washington DC, Cleveland, Nashville, Troy, Paris, Lithuania, Budapest, the parking lot of my local Kroger, and even inside a church. My answer is always no. I learned many years ago after falling for one sob story after another in my younger days that these are just techniques for earning cash for drugs, alcohol, etc.

From my experience the homeless are not the ones panhandling, the homeless seem fairly sociopathic and avoid people. The homeless I feel badly for and donate to a charity that works to get them off the streets and into jobs. Panhandlers are a different story, they are substance abusers and your money will go to support their habit/s.

Once however I nearly gave a panhandler a $ for a good laugh. He was using the ploy of carrying a gasoline can around claiming to be out of gas, but in this particular instance the gas can had been flattend out by a truck or large vehicle.

[1KielsonDrive]

I have been approached by panhandlers in Detroit, Washington DC, Cleveland, Nashville, Troy, Paris, Lithuania, Budapest, the parking lot of my local Kroger, and even inside a church. My answer is always no. I learned many years ago after falling for one sob story after another in my younger days that these are just techniques for earning cash for drugs, alcohol, etc.

From my experience the homeless are not the ones panhandling, the homeless seem fairly sociopathic and avoid people. The homeless I feel badly for and donate to a charity that works to get them off the streets and into jobs. Panhandlers are a different story, they are substance abusers and your money will go to support their habit/s.

Once however I nearly gave a panhandler a $ for a good laugh. He was using the ploy of carrying a gasoline can around claiming to be out of gas, but in this particular instance the gas can had been flattend out by a truck or large vehicle.

Accurate and wise.

[guito13]

I have been approached by panhandlers in Detroit, Washington DC, Cleveland, Nashville, Troy, Paris, Lithuania, Budapest, the parking lot of my local Kroger, and even inside a church. My answer is always no. I learned many years ago after falling for one sob story after another in my younger days that these are just techniques for earning cash for drugs, alcohol, etc.

From my experience the homeless are not the ones panhandling, the homeless seem fairly sociopathic and avoid people. The homeless I feel badly for and donate to a charity that works to get them off the streets and into jobs. Panhandlers are a different story, they are substance abusers and your money will go to support their habit/s.

Once however I nearly gave a panhandler a $ for a good laugh. He was using the ploy of carrying a gasoline can around claiming to be out of gas, but in this particular instance the gas can had been flattend out by a truck or large vehicle.

I had a guy come up to me last week while i was filling up. Had a gas can with him asking for money to get home from work. So, I took the gas can [[just a 1 gal can) filled it and handed it back to him.