What can we do to deal with the beggars all over Detroit?

**Downtown Lady** · October-07-10, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

The only solution to professional bums here or anywhere is either euthanasia or lifetime incarceration. "Sir Sir" guy and the various cast of regulars around here are not going to miraculously go straight after a drug program or job training. They are dysfunctional humans. They are incapable of being part of society. Since we neither have the stomach to put them down nor the money to house them for 50-60 years in a penitentiary, they will continue to roam the streets.

Perhaps the most hate-filled post I have ever read on this forum.

**bailey** · October-07-10, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Downtown Lady

Perhaps the most hate-filled post I have ever read on this forum.

does no one understand the use of the absurd to illustrate a point?

**Bigb23** · October-07-10, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by DetLiving

So, it's ok for you to have Freedom of Speech but not the homeless or the person begging. They have a right to ask, you have a right to say no.

I think it's more about aleaving your quilt when you walk by. Really, how much money have you given them?

This is the new face of begging. Welcome to the new Millennia.

http://www.wimp.com/deservestip/

**mittengal** · October-07-10, 03:32 PM

Bailey, you deserve medal for common sense! Here in Seattle the bums have more rights than citizens who work & contribute to the community. I differentiate between homeless & bums. The "professional beggars" are who I refer to as bums. All the free services in the world won't help them unless they are willing to help themselves & they're not willing. They have a sense of entitlement--we should hand them money for their substance abuse, allow them to live on public & private property, & put up with their abuse. They give nothing to the community in return, unless we count trash, broken glass, & bodily waste. Here the police come if called but are only allowed to tell the bums to move on. They will take them to a detox facility only if the bum wants to go. There is no such thing as a drunk tank around here. If a bum is passed out on the street, a paramedic truck & fire truck come out, while people with heart attacks & injuries wait. [[The recession has caused cuts in services here though not like in Detroit) There are so many bleeding heart types in this area--it was a culture shock when I moved here. Bums are not just downtown, they're everywhere, even knocking on doors in residential areas. Some friends [[from Chicago) called the police, who told them there was nothing they could do. Some neighbors were horrifed that they called the police & defended the bums. Once a bum was camped in a parking lot next to where I lived. He threw broken beer bottles in my yard & peed & crapped there too. The police could do nothing. I got rid of him by throwing all his junk [[wearing rubber gloves) in a dumpster when he was gone. He came back & ranted & wrote obsceneties on the side of the building next door, but he went away. I think that's one sorry situation. I could go on but I won't--I think people get the picture. IMO, giving them money is the worse thing to do. Give to a homeless shelter instead. Bleeding hearts, flame away!

**1KielsonDrive** · October-07-10, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

I have plenty of compassion.

Originally Posted by bailey

There are real people out there struggling with tough times that are trying to get off the streets, then there are professional bums. One group avails themselves of the various entities out there offering help, the other runs up to you yelling "sir sir" every day with some completely bullshit story about how they just need 38 cents to catch the bus ....which is the same thing they needed yesterday...and day before that ....and so on. After being accosted by same professional bums in the same places downtown more times than I can remember, having my car broken into 5 times in a 9 month stretch in the CBD, and seeing the same guy standing at the 94 exit ramp with the same pathetic sign every day for the last 5 years [[rain or shine) it is clear to me that there are those among us that are beyond help. They are simply broken. In a world of 6 billion there are going to be some that simply fail quality control. So one can accept them as a cost associated with life in a city, ignore them, and stop hand wringing about what to do about them OR let them live with you.

Plenty of compassion...............euthanasia or incarceration. Yeah, you're believable. I'll stick with my original response: we could kill or incarcerate people like you who have no concern for others. What makes you and your life more important or valuable than any others? Moral superiority? It might be nice to see you on that freeway ramp sometime.

**1KielsonDrive** · October-07-10, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

I have plenty of compassion. There are real people out there struggling with tough times that are trying to get off the streets, then there are professional bums. One group avails themselves of the various entities out there offering help, the other runs up to you yelling "sir sir" every day with some completely bullshit story about how they just need 38 cents to catch the bus ....which is the same thing they needed yesterday...and day before that ....and so on. After being accosted by same professional bums in the same places downtown more times than I can remember, having my car broken into 5 times in a 9 month stretch in the CBD, and seeing the same guy standing at the 94 exit ramp with the same pathetic sign every day for the last 5 years [[rain or shine) it is clear to me that there are those among us that are beyond help. They are simply broken. In a world of 6 billion there are going to be some that simply fail quality control. So one can accept them as a cost associated with life in a city, ignore them, and stop hand wringing about what to do about them OR let them live with you.

I'm quite sure you know exactly who it was that broke into your car. It must really make your day to hate that person who runs up to you asking for bus money. It's a real shame your day is so difficult and you have to put up with that bulls^*t. I'll convene my prayer group for you.

DetroitDad · October-08-10, 01:14 AM

Whatever, you guys can hand wring all you want about this, I was just trying to, you know, be motivational. I was "in the zone" the other night. I typed that out from the top of my head, and I guess I didn't take the time to consider that it would make you nauseous.

The point is that people have to help themselves before they help anyone else. Beyond that, the urban environment needs to actually be attractive to other people and their activities. You deal with this issue by improving the vitality of the street.

For me personally? That actually was an on the spot check list of what I needed to start doing in my own life. Generally, I don't give money whenever someone asks, because I would be broke if I did, I live here. However, most don't ask because they eventually recognize me, which means that really is all they are doing for money. Those types of people I actually try to connect with, and if possible, find them jobs or some other purpose. You can vomit over my caring posts all day, I'm still going to post them.

Some of you guys are the type of people who get offended while I'm picking up trash, like oh "whitey, yuppy, hippy whatever slur is gona teach me?". I'm not trying to teach you shite. I'm just walking around trying to make it a little better for my daughter, and shield her from these nuts who are trying to connive their way through.

You don't have to read my posts.

**Zacha341** · October-08-10, 05:29 AM

Hmmm, I'd heard there was a problem with the 'militant' bum types out in Seattle... too much. Indeed like any group of folk you've got some who have bad intent, recalcitrant, incurable in their aganst who will PERSIST in bothering those not inclined to give money to them.

Originally Posted by mittengal

....Here in Seattle the bums have more rights than citizens who work & contribute to the community. I differentiate between homeless & bums. The "professional beggars" are who I refer to as bums. All the free services in the world won't help them unless they are willing to help themselves & they're not willing. They have a sense of entitlement--we should hand them money for their substance abuse, allow them to live on public & private property, & put up with their abuse. They give nothing to the community in return, unless we count trash, broken glass, & bodily waste.

**bailey** · October-08-10, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by 1KielsonDrive

I'm quite sure you know exactly who it was that broke into your car. It must really make your day to hate that person who runs up to you asking for bus money. It's a real shame your day is so difficult and you have to put up with that bulls^*t. I'll convene my prayer group for you.

I don't know how to explain it anymore clearly to you as you are seemingly bent on willful ignorance, but I'll try one more time. I don't care one way or another about the bums. There will always be bums in major population centers. There will always be a segment of the population unable to function in society and for which no amount of "help" is going to, well, help. Seeing the same people day in and day out, asking for the same things day in and day out, simply illustrates the point. Save your prayer and just let me know when sir sir guy is moving in with you...or are you going to let him sleep outdoors again this winter?

**1KielsonDrive** · October-08-10, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

I don't know how to explain it anymore clearly to you as you are seemingly bent on willful ignorance, but I'll try one more time. I don't care one way or another about the bums. There will always be bums in major population centers. There will always be a segment of the population unable to function in society and for which no amount of "help" is going to, well, help. Seeing the same people day in and day out, asking for the same things day in and day out, simply illustrates the point. Save your prayer and just let me know when sir sir guy is moving in with you...or are you going to let him sleep outdoors again this winter?

You don't care, but they should be incarcerated or euthanized? Of course, only the ones you designate as useless, or the 'day in and day out' beggars, by your defintion. By what means do you intend to determine which ones are which? My suggestion of prayer was facetious, b/t/w. I'll inform you before anyone else when the 'beggars' move in with me and I begin feeding them. I'm sure it'll make you feel much better and much more smug that you'll think you won an argument, because I may or may not be housing and feeding the 'beggars' you've designated.

**bailey** · October-08-10, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by 1KielsonDrive

You don't care, but they should be incarcerated or euthanized? Of course, only the ones you designate as useless, or the 'day in and day out' beggars, by your defintion. By what means do you intend to determine which ones are which? My suggestion of prayer was facetious, b/t/w. I'll inform you before anyone else when the 'beggars' move in with me and I begin feeding them. I'm sure it'll make you feel much better and much more smug that you'll think you won an argument, because I may or may not be housing and feeding the 'beggars' you've designated.

Reading comprehension seems to be an issue with you. I didn't say they "should" be euthanized or incarcerated, I merely suggested those were likely the only real solutions to the rather large class of professional bum we have here. since it would be absurd to think that we, as a society, would condone the mass extermination of people or, as a region full of raging teabaggers, pay for the life long incarceration of these failures at life, then ignoring them and not giving them money is the best solution to the problem. Which is what i do on a daily basis. Unfortunately too many others don't [[which simply exacerbates the problem) and then they wring their hands over what to do about the homeless around downtown.

**Detroitnerd** · October-08-10, 02:12 PM

I don't understand what the fuss is over. Like, after reading a bazillion of bailey's misanthropic, angry, tough-shit, life-is-unfair, verging-on-the-sociopathic posts, is anybody surprised that he's in favor of euthanizing the poor? In fact, I applaud him for showing just how heartless he is. Perhaps now we know just how much credence to give his other remarks ...

**bailey** · October-08-10, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

I don't understand what the fuss is over. Like, after reading a bazillion of bailey's misanthropic, angry, tough-shit, life-is-unfair, verging-on-the-sociopathic posts, is anybody surprised that he's in favor of euthanizing the poor? In fact, I applaud him for showing just how heartless he is. Perhaps now we know just how much credence to give his other remarks ...

Please point to the post where I said I was in favor of euthanizing the poor.

but of course I never did, did I?

**Detroitnerd** · October-08-10, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Please point to the post where I said I was in favor of euthanizing the poor.

but of course I never did, did I?

Sure you did. But it's OK that you keep denying it too. Anybody as sick and misanthropic as you must have a streak of denial two miles wide.

**bailey** · October-08-10, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Sure you did. But it's OK that you keep denying it too. Anybody as sick and misanthropic as you must have a streak of denial two miles wide.

Yup keep spinning it. I expected nothing less than for you to insert facts to fit your conclusion. If only you could work in your "if you don't have the facts argue the law" comeback, I'd get to do a shot.

**Whitehouse** · October-08-10, 08:27 PM

There are some that are just asking for a can of whoop ass!

Come on! Sorry story and than answering an iPhone??!

**gazhekwe** · October-08-10, 09:43 PM

Well, it isn't a new problem, that's for sure. This is an old song, probably was old when the Wobblies published it in 1908:

Refrain

Hallelujah, I'm a bum,
Hallelujah, bum again,
Hallelujah, give us a handout
To revive us again.

Why don't you work like other folks do?
How the hell can I work when there's no work to do?

Oh, why don't you save all the money you earn?
If I didn't eat, I'd have money to burn.

Whenever I get all the money I earn,
The boss will be broke, and to work he must turn.

Oh, I like my boss, he's a good friend of mine,
That's why I am starving out on the bread line.

When springtime it comes, oh, won't we have fun;
We'll throw off our jobs, and go on the bum.

**1KielsonDrive** · October-09-10, 02:26 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

I don't understand what the fuss is over. Like, after reading a bazillion of bailey's misanthropic, angry, tough-shit, life-is-unfair, verging-on-the-sociopathic posts, is anybody surprised that he's in favor of euthanizing the poor? In fact, I applaud him for showing just how heartless he is. Perhaps now we know just how much credence to give his other remarks ...

I guess I'm just learning about Bailey.

**rid0617** · October-09-10, 06:14 AM

We had a major problem with it in Atlanta also. I had a very truthful reply. I'm on food stamps, can't feed myself.

**erikd** · October-10-10, 04:14 AM

There is no possible solution to this problem under the current federal laws and constitutional interpretation. Most of the local laws, ordinances, and prohibitions against panhandling, loitering, etc have been struck down by the courts as unconstitutional. Prior to the civil rights movement, it was standard practice to round up the mentally ill and indigent people on the street, and send them to institutions that were designed to deal with people suffering from various disorders and issues that caused them to be incapable or unwilling to care for themselves.

Under current federal law, there is no legal way to keep mentally ill or indigent people in any type of institution against their will, unless they have been convicted of a crime and sentenced under standard guidelines.

Detroit, like every other city or town in America, has no authority or ability to do anything to stop the street beggars. As is the case with most of the social issues faced in this city, it is an American problem, not just a Detroit problem.

This issue presents a big dilemma for American civil law, liberties, and freedoms. Do we have the right to confine mentally ill or indigent people against their will? Where do we draw the line between their right to constantly violate basic civil ordinances and acceptable codes of conduct, and our right to not have to deal with their petty crimes and harassment on a daily basis?

From a strict legal point of view, it does seem quite draconian to confine a person to a mental institution for petty crimes like shoplifting, public urination, loitering, panhandling, verbal harassment, and vandalism, but when you have a consistent violator of these laws who is impeding the rights of residents and business owners to freely live their lives without constant harassment, there is a valid question about which person is deserving of their rights, and which person has abused them.

**upinnair** · October-11-10, 04:26 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

If any of you go out west to visit a National Park, you will see signs warning you not to feed the bears. Fed bears have a reason to return. If you don't feed them they will go away.

There it is in a nutshell, or a picnic basket.

**1KielsonDrive** · October-11-10, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by upinnair

There it is in a nutshell, or a picnic basket.

However you'd like to frame it, if there are alternatives such as a community kitchen, etc, then you are correct to refuse 'the Bears' handouts. I was approached by a street person asking for money recently in Ypsi. I directed him three blocks to the Salvation Army. I have served meals at the SA. It often occurs to me that, in this economy, I may be a few steps away from receiving meals at the SA. I try to volunteer at community kitchens as often as possible. I also occasionally pay a $5.00 admission to the kitchens I volunteer at to contribute to their efforts.

**1KielsonDrive** · October-11-10, 01:43 PM

What this post amounts to is this: stop grousing and bitching about poor people who annoy you and do something about it. If you don't like them bugging you, speak to them firmly and politely. Don't threaten and hate them. What a waste of energy. There may be times when you have to put your foot down and ask them to leave you alone. But, euthanizing and incarcerating them? C'mon. Go to a community kitchen and volunteer to serve meals or work in the warehouse. Kwitcher bitchin'.

**fryar** · October-11-10, 01:48 PM

Is this really a major issue? Overly aggressive beggars/panhandlers are a nuisance, but they have never impacted my "quality of life" sufficiently to want to have the state crack down on 'em and violate their civil liberties.

**mittengal** · October-11-10, 04:22 PM

If the panhandlers were truly hungry it would be a different story. There are places where they can get free food. They don't want to be given food, they want cash. Many of them get SSI checks which are used for booze & drugs, & supplement with panhandling. Retirees on social security are not getting a cost of living raise again this year. This sucks! Take the $ away from the drunks & addicts & give it to people who have worked, paid into social security, & paid income tax all their lives.