What can we do to deal with the beggars all over Detroit?

[kryptonite]

"I've always heard that Governor Engler was responsible for closing many of the mental health facilities that the state operated? Can anyone back this up?"

Engler had no choice but to close some facilities. The supreme court ruled in the late 70's or early 80's that institutionalized patients could no longer be kept in the institutions against their will. After that ruling, large cities became flooded with more homeless - mentally ill formerly institutionalized patients.

Remember the closures of Heloise, Northville, Lafayette Clinic, etc.? They partly had to do with the ruling. So where does a mental inmate go? To live with family or friends??

Personally I think it was one of the supreme court's worst rulings ever. Forced into an institution no doubt is not pleasant, but living under a bridge without medication, medical care or guarantee of a meal is an improvement?

[lafayette]

"Engler had no choice but to close some facilities. The supreme court ruled in the late 70's or early 80's that institutionalized patients could no longer be kept in the institutions against their will...Remember the closures of Heloise, Northville, Lafayette Clinic, etc.?"

Lafayette Clinic was not a huge institution like Northville State or Eloise [[not Heloise), Engler's motivation in closing Lafayette was not compliance with a court ruling from a decade earlier, and if it was, he would have followed the court ruling's mandate that the institution funds be used instead to provide adequate community-based, smaller facility treatment. That's exactly what Lafayette Clinic was. Engler's closure of Lafayette Clinic in Detroit, despite what he might have said to the contrary, had nothing to do with adherence to a Supreme Court ruling from 10-15 years earlier. If it did, he would have made sure funding was taken care of for local community mental health systems to pick up the fallout from closing Lafayette. He didn't. They got thrown onto the street [[many in Cass Corridor) with little access to adequate treatment in their area. Further, the Supreme Court ruling was intended to improve the quality of care for mental health patients with the assumption that large institutions aren't as effective as small, community-based facilities in treating mental illness. It wasn't a ruling intended to save money per se, but to improve mental health treatment. So using that ruling to justify cutting mental health services, either large or community-based, doesn't work.

[Zacha341]

The greedy rich can pay for it! At least we wont have too... so long as the 'definition' of rich stays at a nice place relegated to be someone else! --------

"My premise is solve the homeless problem by providing basic shelter, food, and medical assistance, then continue to ban panhandling."

Terrific!! Who's gonna pay for it?

[1KielsonDrive]

Unprovoked = meaning I did nothing to provoke his actions. I did not know he was there until the harassment began. I did not mention he also cursed at me for letting my dogs out in my own backyard in the morning.
You sure are angry at "The Establishment". Sounds like you're stuck in the 60's

Yup, I'm a 'bleeding heart, stuck in the 60's'. And you are assigning your anger at a few people for their actions, to whole group of people, making them out to be all bad because one or two of them possibly treated you poorly. To get back to the original point of this thread, would you like them all incarcerated and/or euthanized?

[1KielsonDrive]

I can understand your frustrations with this discussion, but some of us probably deal with more homeless in a day than you probably do in a week. This isn't a personal attack, I'm just putting it into perspective. As I said, we had a 'resident' homeless person outside my apartment building I had to put up with for a month. How would you like to walk out your front door every morning and be hassled for change? While after you had repeatedly said you would not...after you had given him a couple bucks the first time [[big mistake). Finally this guy was banned from the area.

Daily, I'll encounter about 12-25 panhandlers depending on the weather. Most just stand there repeating themselves for change without staring at you directly. These people I don't mind...and it basically supports your point, 1KielsonDrive. Just keep moving on....

But I've had some run-ins with homeless that have vented their frustration on me because I had my headphones on and paid no mind. They'd stand in my way, yell and curse. I've seen it happen to plenty other people. It's a surprise because it's not like I'm coming off as an asshole. I'm merely walking past with my head low. Sometimes it's a big problem because they can follow you for a block even after you say "No I'm sorry, I have no change."

1KielsonDrive, sorry you get so much spam. You can hang up a phone. I really think there may be more to this issue than people see. And fyi, I don't dislike the homeless, but they can be a nuisance like loud noise can be a nuisance. I believe it's a problem that can be fixed, and I believe my city is working to do just so. What's interesting is at night, streets are clear, doorways are clear, alleys are clear. Where did they all go?

I'm not sure why you disagree with my points. My premise is solve the homeless problem by providing basic shelter, food, and medical assistance, then continue to ban panhandling.

Whether or not I deal with more homeless than anyone else here isn't the point. Though I could make that argument pretty easily, being in Ypsilanti, Detroit and Hamtramck, each almost daily. And being a business owner, I see a lot of walk-ins that I have to deal with quite firmly and aggressively. I agree with your premises. Nothing personal with you - I just don't like the vitriol by most posters here at DY against the poor in our country. Yes, they're a problem when they're in your face. Deal with it firmly and effectively, and get on with life. If dealing with street and homeless people is the biggest problem encountered by DY posters, they should count themselves blessed, not in their shoes, and think of ways to improve the situation. Not incarceration and/or euthanization.

[1KielsonDrive]

BTW Wolverine, I have some North Quad photos, taken all the way last summer, I've been meaning to post for you. Just haven't had time. I'll post them to Non-Detroit soon.

[Hermod]

The greedy rich can pay for it! At least we wont have too... so long as the 'definition' of rich stays at a nice place relegated to be someone else! --------

Like the senator said during the 1986 tax reform debates, "Don't tax you. Don't tax me. Tax the other fellow behind the tree." as his colleagues devised more and more convoluted arguments to shift tax burdens while remaining revenue neutral.

[1KielsonDrive]

Like the senator said during the 1986 tax reform debates, "Don't tax you. Don't tax me. Tax the other fellow behind the tree." as his colleagues devised more and more convoluted arguments to shift tax burdens while remaining revenue neutral.

And senators are known for what? Wisdom? Knowledge? Fairness? Concern? Bi-partisanship? Other than covering their own asses - unlimited health care, political slush funds, campaign treasure chests, retirement funds, travel, etc, etc, I'm not sure I'd want to quote one of them for saying anything seeming to be witty, intelligent or perceptive.

[mittengal]

Yup, I'm a 'bleeding heart, stuck in the 60's'. And you are assigning your anger at a few people for their actions, to whole group of people, making them out to be all bad because one or two of them possibly treated you poorly. To get back to the original point of this thread, would you like them all incarcerated and/or euthanized?

I wrote about my personal experiences to give examples of how some of these people behave. Incarcerated & put on work crews to clean up their city would be good, though it will never happen.

[1KielsonDrive]

I wrote about my personal experiences to give examples of how some of these people behave. Incarcerated & put on work crews to clean up their city would be good, though it will never happen.

I'd agree that in some cases they should be incarcerated, just as anyone who breaks the law should be. But wholesale incarceration for being annoying and poor, as some have suggested, is a ridiculous proposition. It's not only unjust, it would likely be more costly than assisting them in some ways. Work crews is a good idea. I'd likely take a job on a work crew in this most terrible of economic times, if a program became available. Suggesting euthanasia is plainly and simply, nuts. Anyone suggesting that is off their rocker. I'm not speaking of you.

[canuck]

Sorry what was the question again? How to deal with tea baggers around Detroit, is that it?

[Vic01]

To get back to the original point of this thread, would you like them all incarcerated and/or euthanized?

This was not the "original point"..., it's simply what many have gotten sidetracked with. I looked back to the original post, to find the original point of this thread, and the question was "What can we, as a city, and a community, do about the beggers on the streets...?"
A simple question... no "incarcerate/euthanize" anywhere in the entire post. Can we get back to the "original question"?

[1KielsonDrive]

Sorry what was the question again? How to deal with tea baggers around Detroit, is that it?

Incarceration and euthanization.

[1KielsonDrive]

This was not the "original point"..., it's simply what many have gotten sidetracked with. I looked back to the original post, to find the original point of this thread, and the question was "What can we, as a city, and a community, do about the beggers on the streets...?"
A simple question... no "incarcerate/euthanize" anywhere in the entire post. Can we get back to the "original question"?

Okay. So what do you have to say about it?

[Bearinabox]

Sorry what was the question again? How to deal with tea baggers around Detroit, is that it?

Maybe if we elect a black governor they'll all move to Arizona or something. At their age they probably like the weather better down there anyway.

[bailey]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1KielsonDrive
To get back to the original point of this thread, would you like them all incarcerated and/or euthanized?

This was not the "original point"..., it's simply what many have gotten sidetracked with. I looked back to the original post, to find the original point of this thread, and the question was "What can we, as a city, and a community, do about the beggers on the streets...?"
A simple question... no "incarcerate/euthanize" anywhere in the entire post. Can we get back to the "original question"?

No, because 1KD is incapable of reading comprehension or making a point at all. On one hand h/she says it's terrible to talk about incarceration but then simultaneously decries Engler's closing of hospitals where many of our street folk would have been locked up [[for their own good) for indefinite periods of time AND is apparently in favor of extracting forced labor from them. The Germans had those 1kd, they called them concentration camps. So, on one hand, s/he is outraged at the unserious suggestion of having them euthanized but apparently seriously wants them to be used as slave labor on "work crews" against their will. very interesting moral relativism there.

Then s/he goes on over and over with the overwrought rants about euthanasia being a serious proposal, which it never was... so there is another page and a half of her/him being righteously indignant over something that was never meant to be a 'real' suggestion [[which was multiple times explained as an absurd suggestion).

If he/she could see past the carefully constructed fantasy land in his/her head, she'd see that s/he's in agreement with almost everyone here; The only real solution to the professional panhandler is to ignore them as they are always going to be a part of urban life.

[1KielsonDrive]

No, because 1KD is incapable of reading comprehension or making a point at all. On one hand h/she says it's terrible to talk about incarceration but then simultaneously decries Engler's closing of hospitals where many of our street folk would have been locked up [[for their own good) for indefinite periods of time AND is apparently in favor of extracting forced labor from them. The Germans had those 1kd, they called them concentration camps. So, on one hand, s/he is outraged at the unserious suggestion of having them euthanized but apparently seriously wants them to be used as slave labor on "work crews" against their will. very interesting moral relativism there.

Then s/he goes on over and over with the overwrought rants about euthanasia being a serious proposal, which it never was... so there is another page and a half of her/him being righteously indignant over something that was never meant to be a 'real' suggestion [[which was multiple times explained as an absurd suggestion).

If he/she could see past the carefully constructed fantasy land in his/her head, she'd see that s/he's in agreement with almost everyone here; The only real solution to the professional panhandler is to ignore them as they are always going to be a part of urban life.

Bailey, is this your idea of a serious discussion about anything?

[bailey]

Bailey, is this your idea of a serious discussion about anything?

Hey, sorry, I'm just trying to figure out why you want to put all the homeless in work camps. seems somewhat cruel.

[EastsideQT]

If you think Detroit has beggars then you should go to Ann Arbor especially on the Univ of Mich campus...when I was a student there in the late 90's and early 20's I did a paper on them and they said they love Ann Arbor because it's full of bleeding heart liberals...one beggar told me he made enough during the school year to go on vacation in the summer...they even have celebrity beggars in Ann Arbor.

[gazhekwe]

That work camp idea has been done. They were called poorhouses or workhouses, some of them were on poor farms. They were set up to be nearly self-sufficient operations, the residents did all the work. There were farrnworkers, blacksmiths, cooks, laundries, cleaners and handymen for repairs, seamstresses, tailors and on and on. The able indigent would have to go there, learn their trade and work to pay for their room and board. A lot of residents were elderly, this dropped off after Social Security kicked in. These places were usually run by counties, and were common in the 1800s into the mid-1900s. I remember such a place in Chippewa County in the 50s, Maple Farm on the outskirts of the Soo. There was a nice long porch with rocking chairs and sometimes you would see old men sitting there. I thought it looked inviting and told my mom I wanted to go there, but she said it wasn't a good place and wouldn't explain why. I found out later it was a poor farm.

This poem depicting the situation for homeless elders was written in 1897 by Michigan's Pioneer Poet, Will Carleton:

OVER THE HILL TO THE POOR-HOUSE

by Will Carleton, 1897

Over the hill to the poor-house I'm trudgin' my weary way---
I, a woman of seventy, and only a trifle gray---
I, who am smart an' chipper, for all the years I've told,
As many another woman that's only half as old. Over the hill to the poor-house---I can't quite make it clear!
Over the hill to the poor-house---it seems so horrid queer!
Many a step I've taken, a-toilin' to and fro,
But this is a sort of journey I never thought to go.
What is the use of heapin' on me a pauper's shame?
Am I lazy or crazy? am I blind or lame?
True, I am not so supple, nor yet so awful stout;
But charity ain't no favor, if one can live without.
I am ready and willin' an' anxious any day
To work for a decent livin' and pay my honest way;
For I can earn my victuals, an' more too, I'll be bound,
If anybody is willin' to only have me 'round.
Once I was young an' hand'some---I was, upon my soul---
Once my cheeks was roses, my eyes was black as coal;
And I can't remember, in them days, of hearin' people say,
For any kind of a reason, that I was in their way!
'Tain't no use of boastin' or talkin' over-free,
But many a house an' home was open then to me;
Many a han'some offer I had from likely men,
And nobody ever hinted that I was a burden then.
And when to John I was married, sure he was good and smart,
But he and all the neighbors would own I done my part;
For life was all before me, an' I was young an' strong,
And I worked my best an' smartest in tryin' to get along.
And so we worked together; and life was hard, but gay,
With now and then a baby to cheer us on our way.
Till we had half a dozen, an' all growed clean an' neat,
An' went to school like others, an' had enough to eat.
An' so we worked for the child'rn, and raised 'em every one---
Worked for 'em summer and winter, just as we ought to've done;
Only perhaps we humored 'em, which some good folks condemn,
But every couple's own child'rn's a heap the dearest to them!
Strange how much we think of OUR blessed little ones!---
I'd have died for my daughters, and I'd have died for my sons.
And God He made that rule of love; but when we're old and gray
I've noticed it sometimes, somehow, fails to work the other way.
Stranger another thing: when our boys an' girls was grown,
And when, exceptin' Charley, they'd left us there alone,
When John he nearer an' nearer came, an' dearer seemed to be,
The Lord of Hosts, He came one day an' took him away from me! Still I was bound to struggle, an' never cringe or fall---
Still I worked for Charley, for Charley was now my all;
And Charley was pretty good to me, with scarce a word or frown,
Till at last he went a-courtin', and brought a wife from town.
She was somewhat dressy, an' hadn't a pleasant smile---
She was quite conceity, and carried a heap o' style;
But if ever I tried to be friends, I did with her, I know;
But she was hard and haughty, an' we couldn't make it go.
She had an edication, and that was good for her,
But when she twitted me on mine, 'twas carryin' things too far,
An' I told her once, 'fore company, [[an' it almost made her sick)
That I never swallowed a grammer, nor 'et a 'rithmetic.
So 'twas only a few days before the thing was done---
They was a family of themselves, and I another one.
And a very little cottage one family will do,
But I never have seen a mansion that was big enough for two.
An' I never could speak to suit her, never could please her eye,
An' it made me independent, an' then I didn't try.
But I was terribly humbled, an' felt it like a blow,
When Charley turned agin me, an' told me I could go!
I went to live with Susan, but Susan's house was small,
And she was always a-hintin' how snug it was for us all;
And what with her husband's sisters, and what with child'rn three,
'Twas easy to discover there wasn't room for me.
An' then I went with Thomas, the oldest son I've got:
For Thomas's buildings'd cover the half of an acre lot,
But all the child'rn was on me---I couldn't stand their sauce---
And Thomas said I needn't think I was comin' there to boss.
An' then I wrote to Rebecca, my girl who lives out West,
And to Isaac, not far from her---some twenty miles at best;
And one of 'em said 'twas too warm there for anyone so old,
And t'other had an opinion the climate was too cold.
So they have shirked and slighted me, an' shifted me about---
So they have well nigh soured me, an' wore my old heart out;
But still I've borne up pretty well, an' wasn't much put down,
Till Charley went to the poor-master, an' put me on the town!
Over the hill to the poor-house---my child'rn dear, good-bye!
Many a night I've watched you when only God was nigh;
And God'll judge between us; but I will al'ays pray
That you shall never suffer the half that I do to-day!

[1KielsonDrive]

Hey, sorry, I'm just trying to figure out why you want to put all the homeless in work camps. seems somewhat cruel.

Other posters here had informed me that I might be well off to ignore Bailey and his nonsense. Done!

[1KielsonDrive]

If you think Detroit has beggars then you should go to Ann Arbor especially on the Univ of Mich campus...when I was a student there in the late 90's and early 20's I did a paper on them and they said they love Ann Arbor because it's full of bleeding heart liberals...one beggar told me he made enough during the school year to go on vacation in the summer...they even have celebrity beggars in Ann Arbor.

What a joke. Is there any likelihood we'll be able to see this paper you wrote on beggars? Is it online? Did the beggars really use the term 'bleeding heart liberals'? Are you capable of doing research and writing a paper? Did you actually attend an institution of higher learning, much less the UoM? Ha, ha, ha, ha.........

[DetroitPole]

If you think Detroit has beggars then you should go to Ann Arbor especially on the Univ of Mich campus...when I was a student there in the late 90's and early 20's I did a paper on them and they said they love Ann Arbor because it's full of bleeding heart liberals...one beggar told me he made enough during the school year to go on vacation in the summer...they even have celebrity beggars in Ann Arbor.

the late 90's and early 20's? Wow, it took you a while to finish your degree, and you must be the eldest member of this board!

Certainly you couldn't have meant the 2000's. In university I learned that those zero years are called the aughts. Surely if you actually went to U-M you would have learned this as well. Love to see that paper.

[bailey]

Other posters here had informed me that I might be well off to ignore Bailey and his nonsense. Done!

aww. that hurt my feelings.

What a joke. Is there any likelihood we'll be able to see this paper you wrote on beggars? Is it online? Did the beggars really use the term 'bleeding heart liberals'? Are you capable of doing research and writing a paper? Did you actually attend an institution of higher learning, much less the UoM? Ha, ha, ha, ha.........

Um. I know you like to ignore things like facts and reality, but there is a pretty extensive article on the homeless invasion of AA in today's Detroit News. http://detnews.com/article/20101015/...omeless-influx

[Barbara_10]

Agreed. Detroit beggars are nothing compared to NYC beggars. And in NY they literally make it into an art form. It's a very competitive field.

Heck, even Ann Arbor has a significant beggar population.

I spent 4 days, earlier this month in NYC,granted it was Manhattan, but only saw one homeless person. He was diging through trash cans, and didn't ask anyone for anything.
Where do you see all of them?