It begins in Tennessee.... Detroit after that?

[Meddle]

Because they were there,

... and knowingly allowed the pollution to continue.


They need to be charged with something. Anything to teach them that this type of neglect cannot be allowed in a civilized society.

[laurin]

... and knowingly allowed the pollution to continue.


They need to be charged with something. Anything to teach them that this type of neglect cannot be allowed in a civilized society.

Should they also fine the homeowners for not opting for fire service since that is the reason the firefighters did not respond? They knowingly left themselves open to pollution due to fire by not subscribing to fire services. One could [[and should) argue that they were neglectful in not subscribing to services. In a civilized society, citizens needs to 'buy in' as well. IMO, they never should have been given the option to begin with- it should have been covered in taxes.

It's always easy to shift the blame as your last paragraph could apply to both the firefighters AND the family.

[Crumbled_pavement]

Again, does anyone know if the fire department from a different municipality, South Fulton, with no contract to serve this house was insured to fight fires at places it is not authorized to serve? What if a fire fighter was hurt and the South Fulton fire department did not have insurance coverage in this instance?

^^^ This is the only relevent argument in this entire thread. This is a very good point and if the firefighters were not insured to fight the fire then they made the right choice. I do agree with the following post also by Oladub.

Too bad though that the South Fulton fire truck didn't have a ready to sign contract in it's glove compartment offering to fight the fire at $10,000/hour. Such a contract would have made the point about paying $75 just as well as letting the house burn.

I think the point would well be made that it would be cheaper to pay $75 as opposed to $10K. I don't know what some people earn on this board, but if saving $10K is no incentive to them then they are obviously making 10x what I'm making.

[Relayer76]

Some people on this thread clearly have NO ethics or moral code or sense of community

You don't let someone's house burn to the ground without doing something to help stop it. Period.

I certainly agree with your first point but the fact is that the home owner should not have been allowed to put himself and his neighbours in this position. The fire could have spread to other houses. So whether you agree or not that this non-payer should receive a service he refused to pay for initially is irrelevant in the big picture. For the safety and protection of the community, all fire dept services should be covered in the the city, town or county property taxes. Then everyone would automatically pay. The problem is this trend towards privatization. Government is not necessarily a bad thing, certainly not when you are talking about basic essential services.

[Meddle]

Even professional firefighters are appalled:

Washington, DC – International Association of Fire Fighters General President Harold Schaitberger
today issued the following statement on the September 29 fire in Obion County, Tennessee:
“The decision by the South Fulton Fire Department to allow a family’s home to burn to the ground was
incredibly irresponsible. This tragic loss of property was completely avoidable. Because of South
Fulton’s pay-to-play policy, fire fighters were ordered to stand and watch a family lose its home.
“Everyone deserves fire protection because providing public safety is among a municipality’s highest
priorities.
“Instead, South Fulton wants to charge citizens outside the city for fire protection. We condemn South
Fulton’s ill-advised, unsafe policy. Professional, career fire fighters shouldn’t be forced to check a list
before running out the door to see which homeowners have paid up. They get in their trucks and go.”

http://www.iaff.org/Comm/PDFs/SouthFulton.pdf

[jiminnm]

Then they are wrong also. Using their logic, any fire dept anywhere should be responsible for fighting fires wherever they occur.

The homeowners here live in Obion county outside the city limits of South Fulton. The county has no fire service for unincorporated areas. The city offered a paid service for nearby residents, and the homeowners refused that service. The city was not functioning as a city service by failing to respond to the Cranicks, who were not their customer, they were functioning as a paid contractor to the adjacent nearby homeowner who had contracted for that service. The others who had raised points about insurance issues, etc. are also correct. If residents in unincorporated Obion county desire fire service, they can vote to tax themselves for it [[which they have not done and, if history is any guide, will likely not).

I took an informanl and purely unscientific poll of local area residents, and it overwhelmingly [[4-0) supported the fire chief's actions. And, after all, it is the opinion of local residents that really matter in incidents such as this.

[oladub]

Jim, some people simply are incapable of comprehending boundaries and catagories but that sort of gets off topic.

The following is background information posted on the Kitco forum as posted by 'sharpenu'

"If anyone wants to know the facts, rather than platitudes and generalities, I can explain them to you. I have 22 years on the job, and a Bachelor's Degree in Public Safety Administration. I also have degrees in Emergency Medicine, and Fire Science."

"I think that the bigger issue here is that the people of Obion County have decided that they are happy with this type of fire protection. Sure, there are some that don't but they are in the minority. In 2008 the county did a feasibility study seeing if they could form a county wide department instead of having 8 separate departments covering most of the county. http://troy.troytn.com/Obion%20Count...Commission.pdf Here's a list of those departments:

• Hornbeak Fire Department
• Kenton Fire Department
• Obion Fire Department
• Rives Fire Department
• Samburg Fire Department
• South Fulton Fire Department
• Troy Fire Department
• Union City Fire Department

Of the 8 departments only Union City Fire has career firefighters, 42 of them. The other cities are covered by a combined 144 volunteers.

The study showed that with a 13 mil property tax the county would be able to provide fire department coverage to the entire county and improve response times. This consolidation did not occur, because the voters of the county did not want to pay the extra taxes."


"Ok, the costs for running a fire department:
Basic cost of a fire engine, the cheapest ones you can get: about $140K.
Equipping that fire truck: another $40-60,000
Cost of one set of firefighter gear: about $2,500
Each water tender costs about $70K new, and equipped
On top of that are other expenses, like fuel, training, insurance, radio, and dispatching costs.
A paid fire department costs between $1-2 million per year, per fire company [[a company is a group of 4-6 firefighters and a fire truck of some sort). A residential structure fire requires at least three companies, most places require a minimum of 4. [[In my department, a one alarm working fire in a residential structure consists of 3 engines, a ladder truck, 3 rescue units, a chief, and a safety officer- 4 companies, and a total of 20 people)

The $75 is a way of spreading the expense around the community. If homeowners only pay when they have a fire, the department will not have enough funds to operate and will shut down.

We are talking about a community who pays no fire taxes making demands on a fire department from a community that does. The ones who do not pay contribute NOTHING towards the operational costs of running the department, yet want to reap the benefits."
-sharpenu

________________________________________

The homeowner did have fire insurance so much of what he lost can be replaced assuming there is not a provision in his insurance policy requiring him to secure a source of fire protection. However, those of you who want to criticize the South Fulton Fire Department for following orders to keep their jobs and considering their own risk if they were not insured, I am providing a way that you can be compassionate. Since his insurance will probably not cover all losses for his McMansion, you may sent your compassionate contributions to the unfortunate home owner -

Gene Cranick
5187 Buddy Jones Rd
South Fulton, TN 38257-7709

[Meddle]

A residential structure fire requires at least three companies, most places require a minimum of 4. [[In my department, a one alarm working fire in a residential structure consists of 3 engines, a ladder truck, 3 rescue units, a chief, and a safety officer- 4 companies, and a total of 20 people)

In a rural area, you get 1 or 2 trucks [[1 of which is a tanker since most areas don't have hydrants) and 6 or 7 people if they can get away from their day jobs.

I took an informanl and purely unscientific poll of local area residents, and it overwhelmingly [[4-0) supported the fire chief's actions. And, after all, it is the opinion of local residents that really matter in incidents such as this.

Try asking someone other than 4 of the FFs that refused to do their jobs.

Using their logic, any fire dept anywhere should be responsible for fighting fires wherever they occur.

If it's within their community or service area, that's exactly what they should do. This was in their service area since they came to stand-by and watch.

[jiminnm]

Try asking someone other than 4 of the FFs that refused to do their jobs.

If it's within their community or service area, that's exactly what they should do. This was in their service area since they came to stand-by and watch.

I didn't ask any firefighters. I asked 3 folks I know who live and pay taxes in South Fulton. I also asked someone who owns property outside the city, and pays the $75. Also, the fire fighters did their jobs, providing service to the person who contracted for it. The fire wasn't on property within their service area, since the Cranicks hadn't pay to obtain the service on their property and their property wasn't in the city limits. The fire fighters didn't go to watch, they went to protect the property of their customer.

I suppose the South Fulton Fire Dept could simply refuse to provide any service outside the city limit at any price. That way, they wouldn't violate your sense of right and wrong and all the homes outside the city limits would be at risk. This was the case for all the years prior to South Fulton beginning the current service [[including the 75 years or so that my grandfather lived on his farm outside the city).

[Goose]

Jim, some people simply are incapable of comprehending boundaries and catagories but that sort of gets off topic.

The following is background information posted on the Kitco forum as posted by 'sharpenu'

"If anyone wants to know the facts, rather than platitudes and generalities, I can explain them to you. I have 22 years on the job, and a Bachelor's Degree in Public Safety Administration. I also have degrees in Emergency Medicine, and Fire Science."

"I think that the bigger issue here is that the people of Obion County have decided that they are happy with this type of fire protection. Sure, there are some that don't but they are in the minority. In 2008 the county did a feasibility study seeing if they could form a county wide department instead of having 8 separate departments covering most of the county. http://troy.troytn.com/Obion%20Count...Commission.pdf Here's a list of those departments:

• Hornbeak Fire Department
• Kenton Fire Department
• Obion Fire Department
• Rives Fire Department
• Samburg Fire Department
• South Fulton Fire Department
• Troy Fire Department
• Union City Fire Department

Of the 8 departments only Union City Fire has career firefighters, 42 of them. The other cities are covered by a combined 144 volunteers.

The study showed that with a 13 mil property tax the county would be able to provide fire department coverage to the entire county and improve response times. This consolidation did not occur, because the voters of the county did not want to pay the extra taxes."


"Ok, the costs for running a fire department:
Basic cost of a fire engine, the cheapest ones you can get: about $140K.
Equipping that fire truck: another $40-60,000
Cost of one set of firefighter gear: about $2,500
Each water tender costs about $70K new, and equipped
On top of that are other expenses, like fuel, training, insurance, radio, and dispatching costs.
A paid fire department costs between $1-2 million per year, per fire company [[a company is a group of 4-6 firefighters and a fire truck of some sort). A residential structure fire requires at least three companies, most places require a minimum of 4. [[In my department, a one alarm working fire in a residential structure consists of 3 engines, a ladder truck, 3 rescue units, a chief, and a safety officer- 4 companies, and a total of 20 people)

The $75 is a way of spreading the expense around the community. If homeowners only pay when they have a fire, the department will not have enough funds to operate and will shut down.

We are talking about a community who pays no fire taxes making demands on a fire department from a community that does. The ones who do not pay contribute NOTHING towards the operational costs of running the department, yet want to reap the benefits."
-sharpenu

________________________________________

The homeowner did have fire insurance so much of what he lost can be replaced assuming there is not a provision in his insurance policy requiring him to secure a source of fire protection. However, those of you who want to criticize the South Fulton Fire Department for following orders to keep their jobs and considering their own risk if they were not insured, I am providing a way that you can be compassionate. Since his insurance will probably not cover all losses for his McMansion, you may sent your compassionate contributions to the unfortunate home owner -

Gene Cranick
5187 Buddy Jones Rd
South Fulton, TN 38257-7709

a voice of reason and logic........

good post

[Meddle]

Also, the fire fighters did their jobs,

If they done their jobs, the community would not be the subject of national ridicule.

[gazhekwe]

I heard a more detailed story on NPR today. I believe the grandson of the owners was living in the house with his parents. He was home alone. He set a fire to burn some trash and then went in the house to take a shower. When he got out of the shower, he smelled smoke and found the fire had caught a shed on fire and the house was about to catch fire. He got a hose and started spraying the house and called 911.

Well, talk about breaking Rule #1, NEVER LEAVE A FIRE UNATTENDED....

There were two reasons given for not paying for the service in two different versions of the story.

1. It was the grandparents' house and they didn't pay.
2. The parents of the young man who set the fire said they forgot to pay it.

Dumber yet. The family said it has happened to others. They know because it happened to a relative five years ago.

I still think the South Fulton Fire Department should have some way of extracting a promise to pay, signed contract or whatever, and then put out the fire.

[JBMcB]

I still think the South Fulton Fire Department should have some way of extracting a promise to pay, signed contract or whatever, and then put out the fire.

I'm not a lawyer, but from what I remember from a contract law class I took, there are all kinds of considerations when signing contracts under duress. If you are provided with a contract that says you have to pay the fire department $2000 or your house is going to burn down, I don't think it's a necessarily valid contract, as you could claim you were under duress when you signed it. All the liability waivers attached to the contract would also be void, so the fire department would be liable for ruining your priceless stamp collection while trying to save your house from burning down.

[gazhekwe]

I was thinking it would be for the $75. That's all they would have had to pay to begin with the get the firefighters to the same place.

[Danny]

In urban areas the especially in Detroit, The TheDetroit Fire Department can't tell the citizens that they must pay back taxes in order to save burning buildings. Fire can spread very quickly unless it was put out right away.

[Stosh]

In urban areas the especially in Detroit, The TheDetroit Fire Department can't tell the citizens that they must pay back taxes in order to save burning buildings. Fire can spread very quickly unless it was put out right away.

Now THAT is an incentive. Behind on taxes is just as good as an excuse as any.