So It Begins... Sterling Heights Sees Nation's Steepest Income Drop!

[fryar]

Sterling Heights is a "generic suburb".

There, I fixed it for you.

How many other "generic suburbs" have businesses that employ a total of 58,000 workers - 15,000 of them in the manufacturing sector - and the tax base that comes along with it? [source, 2009 data]

Debunking achieved.

[Mikeg]

There, I fixed it for you.

I think it is highly unethical of you to use the quote function and then edit it to change the meaning of what I wrote.

If you disagree with me then come back with an intelligent counter-post instead of childish provocations.

[NorthEndere]

It's called the internet. Deal with it. As if you're not routinely rude/overly aggresive in how you carry your opinions, here.

[fryar]

Come on. I was being snarky.

To be more direct, big deal. That whole area up there is littered with Automation Alley signs. Combine that with Southeast Michigan's world-class manufacturing base, and I think I've got a reasonable basis for expecting that every couple of miles out there, you hit the world epicenter of stamping machine manufacturing, or ladder design, or some such. So they manufacture in Sterling Heights.

Leaving that aside, driving along major thoroughfares in order to attend to chores like getting an oil change [[OK, I admit it, I'm the source of the rumor that Detroit has no supermarkets), I would in no way have been clear on whether I was in Sterling Heights, Madison Heights, Center Line or Warren without the helpful signs erected by these communities. It was one big generic suburban expanse.

Now generic might be completely adequate. Yards, plentiful shopping, easygoing lifestyle, what more do you want? Different strokes for different folks in different phases of life; I'm not trying to assert that suburban is inferior. Clearly, generic is generic because it is or was once quite popular, i.e. many consider or considered it superior.

But if Sterling Heights is generic, then it doesn't stand out in a crowded field. The supposition in this case is that the presumed downfall of Sterling Heights that is thusly beginning [["And so it begins...") is a direct result of a) a trend that has, at turns, been described as a sprawl-driven growth strategy and as a locust-like consumer culture, where newer alternatives further north are preferred, and b) Sterling Heights' generic nature. The idea is that Royal Oak may not suffer the same fate, even if the approach in a) is not abandoned, because you suddenly hit a functioning town center in the midst of this giant expanse of superblocks.

Out with the old, in with the new, by the truckload. Except for that French family down the block that still holds onto its old tube TV with the built-in DVD player because it's multi-system, allowing them to watch regular NTSC TV from their cable box as well as French Secam DVD's. That thing's special. Like Royal Oak.

Manufacturing jobs in Southeast Michigan are a common feature, and Southeast Michiganders of all people will just drive to work and go live in the new suburb.

[Mikeg]

It's called the internet. Deal with it. As if you're not routinely rude/overly aggresive in how you carry your opinions, here.

I express my opinions just as passionately as others around here and I take a lot of personal attacks for it. Those I can deal with, since it is the Internet. However, there are a lot of childish posters here who just lob a personal attack and don't even bother to rebut. That kind of trollish behavior is decried around here except when it's directed to someone holding a minority opinion - then it's just "Chill dude, it's the Internet and besides, you deserve it because of how you carry your opinions".

Yes, I am opinionated, but I always try to provide some supporting data to back up my position - as I did in the post that Fryar quoted and then edited to turn my words around. If he wants to play childish games, he can do it without using the "Reply with quote" feature.

[Mikeg]

Come on. I was being derogatory in a malicious, superior way.

Yes, you were and you didn't even bother to rebut until I called you on it

Snark = snide + remark

[fryar]

I admit, I'm amused. Turnaround is fair play.

Fine.

[GUSHI]

Sterling heights, the problem there is that the upper middle class whites are moving to shelby/washington. Upper middle class chaldeans are moving to the west side[[west bloomfield) albanians , macadoians ,serbians, italians are all movig to macomb,shelby,washington. Warren schools stink so everything south of 17 is going to shit. The cops give foreigners and african american a hard time, they get harresed. I remeber once getting pulled over by 4 curisers, like wtf is that for no reason my car getting searched. Sterling is a joke.

[Novine]

Mikeg, name 5 things that make Sterling Heights unique or make it standout from its peer communities that would make people want to move there as opposed to a Rochester Hills or Canton or similar community? I can't think of one thing. Communities that can't stand out from their peers face serious problems. Southfield has a huge daytime employment base. It hasn't saved the city from a pattern of decline. Why do you think SH is any different?

[NorthEndere]

I admit, I'm amused. Turnaround is fair play.

Fine.

No kidding. If he can dish it out, he should be able to take it. You pay the cost to be the boss. It's kind of funny how obnoxious people don't want anyone being obnoxious to them.

[mwilbert]

How many other "generic suburbs" have businesses that employ a total of 58,000 workers - 15,000 of them in the manufacturing sector - and the tax base that comes along with it? [source, 2009 data]

If having that tax base means that residential property taxes are substantially lower than its competitors, or services substantially better, then that could be a factor. Otherwise not. It doesn't appear that is true.

[Hermod]

I express my opinions just as passionately as others around here and I take a lot of personal attacks for it. Those I can deal with, since it is the Internet. However, there are a lot of childish posters here who just lob a personal attack and don't even bother to rebut. That kind of trollish behavior is decried around here except when it's directed to someone holding a minority opinion - then it's just "Chill dude, it's the Internet and besides, you deserve it because of how you carry your opinions".

Yes, I am opinionated, but I always try to provide some supporting data to back up my position - as I did in the post that Fryar quoted and then edited to turn my words around. If he wants to play childish games, he can do it without using the "Reply with quote" feature.

Generally, the "fixed it for you" or FIFY where a poster quotes another poster, but edits the quote etiquette requires that the poster "bold" the words that he has edited. Fryar should have done that, but he did say FIFY which indicates that he has edited the quote, so i fail to see your outrage.

.

[maxx]

The tax system contributes to the problem.
Maya MacGuineas on our tax policies [2004]
http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs...macguineas.htm

"...In a sense the federal income tax remains one of the most progressive taxes there is: half of all the revenue it generates comes from workers earning more than $200,000 a year. But income-tax rates are actually not nearly as progressive as they were several decades ago: the top marginal income-tax rate has declined since the Kennedy Administration, from 91 percent in 1960 to 35 percent in President George W. Bush's plan. Meanwhile, the corporate income tax—whose effects are felt more directly by shareholders than workers—has contributed less and less to overall federal revenues, as changes in the tax code have allowed corporations to shield more and more of their income. At the beginning of World War II the corporate income tax provided almost 50 percent of federal revenues; today it accounts for only 10 percent.

Decreasing the progressivity of certain taxes, and relying more on regressive taxes, shifts the tax burden down the income scale from the rich to the middle class and the working poor. This is exactly what has happened over the past several decades. Since the end of World War II state and local taxes—which are far less progressive than federal taxes—have more than doubled as a share of the American economy, while total federal tax revenues have slightly decreased as a percentage of GDP..."

[Det_ard]

Mikeg, name 5 things that make Sterling Heights unique or make it standout from its peer communities that would make people want to move there as opposed to a Rochester Hills or Canton or similar community? I can't think of one thing. Communities that can't stand out from their peers face serious problems. Southfield has a huge daytime employment base. It hasn't saved the city from a pattern of decline. Why do you think SH is any different?

Sterling Heights isn't unique. People will not be coming from all over the world to marvel at the wonder that is Sterling Heights. It's just your standard suburb that offers things people seem to desire.

What do many people seem to want when they choose where to live? Safety. Good schools. Well-built and maintained housing. Perhaps newer houses with more modern layouts. Proximity to work. Proximity to shopping. Good placement in the road network. Value for their money. Those are the biggies. After that, parks, churches, civic amenities, things to do, etc.

For a lot of people, places like Sterling Heights, Canton, Rochester Hills, Troy, Farmington Hills, and Clinton Township fit the bill. They're not unique. They don't have to be, because a lot of people aren't looking for "unique". They're looking for the things I mentioned above. Unique, urban, walkable towns are aren't as high on their priority list as other things. While they may like unique walkable towns, they have other priorities, so they choose Sterling Heights since it's close to work. Or Canton because the in-laws live in Ann Arbor. Or Rochester Hills because one spouse works downtown and the other in Grand Blanc. Works for them.

Just as most people tend to find "boring" mid-sized cars like Camrys and Accords fit their needs best, so it goes with housing. A Mini or a Lotus might be unique, but most people go for a more utilitarian choice. Hence the success of the "boring suburb" model of living. It doesn't appeal to everyone, but it clearly does appeal to many. They're not trying to express their individuality through their car, or their address.

[bartock]

Sterling Heights isn't unique. People will not be coming from all over the world to marvel at the wonder that is Sterling Heights. It's just your standard suburb that offers things people seem to desire.

What do many people seem to want when they choose where to live? Safety. Good schools. Well-built and maintained housing. Perhaps newer houses with more modern layouts. Proximity to work. Proximity to shopping. Good placement in the road network. Value for their money. Those are the biggies. After that, parks, churches, civic amenities, things to do, etc.

For a lot of people, places like Sterling Heights, Canton, Rochester Hills, Troy, Farmington Hills, and Clinton Township fit the bill. They're not unique. They don't have to be, because a lot of people aren't looking for "unique". They're looking for the things I mentioned above. Unique, urban, walkable towns are aren't as high on their priority list as other things. While they may like unique walkable towns, they have other priorities, so they choose Sterling Heights since it's close to work. Or Canton because the in-laws live in Ann Arbor. Or Rochester Hills because one spouse works downtown and the other in Grand Blanc. Works for them.

Just as most people tend to find "boring" mid-sized cars like Camrys and Accords fit their needs best, so it goes with housing. A Mini or a Lotus might be unique, but most people go for a more utilitarian choice. Hence the success of the "boring suburb" model of living. It doesn't appeal to everyone, but it clearly does appeal to many. They're not trying to express their individuality through their car, or their address.

What a terrific summary. I think this speaks to many people.

[Detroitnerd]

Sterling Heights isn't unique. People will not be coming from all over the world to marvel at the wonder that is Sterling Heights. It's just your standard suburb that offers things people seem to desire.

True that. But I think the real problem is that we have an oversupply of one kind of environment, the kind you describe. Been watching this debate on the "getting old around here?" thread, where defenses of and dissatisfaction with suburbia are being debated.

But one thing cannot be debated: We have an oversupply of this type of environment. And, among young people, more than one-third say they do not find these environments satisfactory. We have an undersupply of the environments they seem to want. And that's really the problem. We've spent about 50 years building one type of environment -- suburbia -- building it larger and larger, with bigger homes and bigger lawns and wider streets. And we've spent 50 years neglecting our urban environments, tearing them down, making them smaller, less dense, removing transit, paring back services. What we're left with is a region that is so tilted in one direction that we aren't competitive. And this isn't just Detroit, either. No unit of government in southeastern Michigan seems to have any idea what to do with cities. With suburbs, the strategy is simple: Put down the concrete and the prosperity will follow. But this isn't working anymore. The growth machine is off for the indefinite future.

We should endeavor to strike more of a balance, with the understanding that it benefits everybody to have thriving city centers, good suburban environments and a greenbelt to rein in sprawl.

[Hermod]

Just as most people tend to find "boring" mid-sized cars like Camrys and Accords fit their needs best, so it goes with housing. A Mini or a Lotus might be unique, but most people go for a more utilitarian choice. Hence the success of the "boring suburb" model of living. It doesn't appeal to everyone, but it clearly does appeal to many. They're not trying to express their individuality through their car, or their address.

The problem is that Detroit is not a Mini or a Lotus. Detroit is a very well-used Yugo.

[Detroitnerd]

The problem is that Detroit is not a Mini or a Lotus. Detroit is a very well-used Yugo.

OK, Hermod. You are not in charge of marketing anymore.

[takascar]

....We should endeavor to strike more of a balance, with the understanding that it benefits everybody to have thriving city centers, good suburban environments and a greenbelt to rein in sprawl.

Look, the suburbs were built like they were because, AT THE TIME, this is what people wanted in the existing economic and social environment. They got what they wanted. Many here are implying that the decay of the 'burbs is due to the fact that their design was "all wrong" in the first place and "nah nah nah nah nah, I told you so!!". This is incorrect. What has happened is that times have changed, both economically, socially and generationally. The easy, low-skilled jobs have gone away. The areas that built up around them are understandably decaying. The problem is, no one knows what is next, because people can't see what the end game of the economy is. The only prognostications seem to be negative. To say that, somehow, Detroit will now come back now that the 'burbs have "failed" is ignoring the economic facts of life. Detroit is shrinking as well.

[BrushStart]

I'm not trying to be offensive when I say this, only realistic, but I would never live in Sterling Heights, Warren, Livonia, Dearborn Heights, or the like. Right now, I live downtown, but if I had the desire to live in the suburbs, I would not move to Sterling Heights when I could move to a newer suburb like Troy or Novi. Everything is newer, looks cleaner, is more modern, etc. I don't even think I would live in Sterling Heights if I worked in Sterling Heights. It would make more sense to live in Rochester Hills or Shelby. What is the point of Sterling Heights? It has older homes that are not significant in any way, and older retail, most of which is common to every suburb. It was probably a nice community at one time, but it's past its prime, IMO. Everything I can get in Sterling Heights, I can get in Novi, only better.

Honestly, though, I think I'm different than most people in that I doubt I'll ever move further from the city than an inner-ring suburb. If not Detroit, then potentially Dearborn, Ferndale, or the Pointes seem to have the most to offer, i.e. proximity to downtown and some architectually significant homes, especially in Dearborn and Grosse Pointe. Also, more independent restaurants and retail.

[Detroitnerd]

The suburbs? They were a huge social experiment. On the scale they were built, with the resources that went into their construction, they were without precedent. And now we're left with an oversupply of them as lifestyle choices are changing.

As for will they come back, I must say, I cannot point to the historic sprawl-burbs of Europe or of Ancient Rome, or anything else historical and say, "They will." Due to a confluence of public policy decisions, they mushroomed here after 1945. There were suburban environments in Rome and Europe, for the rich, but nothing like the thousands of square miles in metro Detroit has been seen before.

As for cities coming back, we have a rich historic record to work with there. Rome, the capital of the ancient world, was at one point reduced to ruins and a population of 15,000. So, yes, we have a great deal of evidence that cities can survive through some very hard times. In fact, as for Detroit coming back, I think you're beginning to see some of that as poor people leave and people with money repopulate midtown.

As for the suburbs, who knows? I think they have a place in a metro Detroit that works together, but not at the expense of the city. Nor at the expense of the countryside.