The smoking ban - six months later

[1KielsonDrive]

You 'took a side', so some have attacked the post.
But the best point of all you made would be hard to challenge- there was no compromise, and even if the casinos banned smoking it still would not be enough for the anti- smoking 'lobby'.

6 months later, after the ban, smokers are more pariahs than ever.
If put to a vote on the ballot, the law would probably still be enacted anyways. After all. less than 20% of the population smokes.

Iowa's smoking restrictions are tougher than Michigan's, but they also exempted the casino gambling areas. And 20% of hotel rooms can allow smoking.

Traveling through Iowa this summer, I was surprised- big signs at the highway rest stops- no smoking anywhere on the grounds, except inside your auto. Did observe several people ignoring the signs, one smoking right in front of the sign [[rebel!) Reading online, I guess smoking is banned at all public spaces, indoors or outdoors? Guess that means parks.

That's because Iowan's are incrementalists. They're attempting to achieve socialism, fascism and totalitarianism, by the easiest method possible, banning smoking. Much easier than say, instituting single payer medical coverage.

[Goose]

i can't believe people are still debating this....

this issue has nothing to do with "smoking" but more to do with governmental control over PRIVATE business.... as evidenced by the casino exemption, this has nothing to do with health concerns... the casinos had the power and the money to buy the exemption, individual small business owners do not....

it's a control issue pure and simple

who has the right to decide if smoking will be allowed within a private owned business, the owner/investor or the government???

and don't start replying with other laws that the government enforces against private business, because 1. they ARE probably oppressive in nature, or 2. they are legitimate health/safety concerns that the public may not otherwise be aware of....

since the weak minded lemmings cannot chose on their own to not patronize bars/resturants that allow smoking, they will have the government enforce their will.....

so remember, this has NOTHING to do with smoking.....

[One Shot]

My simple answer as a non-smoker is that it's been great not coming home stinking like an ashtray. I could actually wear the same clothes the next day! Smoking friends don't seem to mind it although they havn't experienced it in the dead of winter yet.
I still don't agree that the government should impose these laws though. Let the owners decide.

[dadinup]

My first post and I signed up mainly to reply to this thread. I am no longer a smoker due to my personal choice, but I'm dead-fast AGAINST a a law restricting my liberties in an establishment where someone needs to be 21 to enter and be served. Don't like smoke? Then Keep the hell OUT. The bar's I go to have a clientèle of whom 90+% smoke. Their business HAS dropped by 40% if not more. I have friend's who have seen their hours cut and tips reduced by 40+% thanks to this idiotic law. Jobs are scarce where I live and this is counterproductive.
I used to work at a Veterans home [Jacobetti in Marquette]where there were 2 rooms that had ventilation pulling the smoke out of the building. Not anymore, now 80+ year old veterans from WW2 have to go outside to smoke. Not that big a deal in the summer but the winters UP here are far different than what you'se guys enjoy down there in the tropics around Detroit. Well, not for much longer, this winter will kill off most of them and the Korean war vet's and probably some 'Nam vets, too. But, by God, YOU won't have to smell cigarette smoke. Yep, one fantastic law, NOT!
Seig Heil!

[wolverine]

My simple answer as a non-smoker is that it's been great not coming home stinking like an ashtray. I could actually wear the same clothes the next day! Smoking friends don't seem to mind it although they havn't experienced it in the dead of winter yet.
I still don't agree that the government should impose these laws though. Let the owners decide.

They'll get by. In places where the ban has been in effect for awhile I've heard smokers say they are actually okay with it.

People who don't like it can stay home. It won't hurt business, they'll be replaced by new customers and smokers that don't complain about the ban being an inconvenience. There's always the initial drop but then customers return. And for any bar that closes because of the ban, a new one will open elsewhere.

[Goose]

[quote=wolverine;186076 And for any bar that closes because of the ban, a new one will open elsewhere.[/quote]

and for any American car company that isn't bailed out by the government and fails, a korean or japanese company will open in its place....

wonder if you mirror these sentiments....????

again, big money business in bed with government wins with the bailouts while small mom and pop bars get the shaft.....

[dadinup]

They'll get by. In places where the ban has been in effect for awhile I've heard smokers say they are actually okay with it.

People who don't like it can stay home. It won't hurt business, they'll be replaced by new customers and smokers that don't complain about the ban being an inconvenience. There's always the initial drop but then customers return. And for any bar that closes because of the ban, a new one will open elsewhere.

I guess I wasn't clear enough, in many places this has had a HUGE impact on people, both those who work in adult establishments [Bar's] and with WW2 hero's who put their lives on the line for this gutted out joke called freedom that they sacrificed so much for. These HERO'S have literally been forced out of their own home just to have a smoke. This law is pure BS. A restaurant is one thing, a bingo parlor, ditto, but a bar is something completely different. The independence of this once great country was fomented and created in local taverns and pubs. Maybe that is why Big Brother wants to close them down. And the Sheeple think it's a good idea.

[wolverine]

and for any American car company that isn't bailed out by the government and fails, a korean or japanese company will open in its place....

wonder if you mirror these sentiments....????

again, big money business in bed with government wins with the bailouts while small mom and pop bars get the shaft.....

No I don't mirror those sentiments because the auto company example is way off base. I really don't care about the law, or its constitutionality. I care about it for selfish reasons. I like that I can go to any bar I choose and it's smoke free. It's really not my problem if the smokers are suffering under the ban. If it is, move to different state. I did it. [[not because of smoke free laws) but because other places have their benefits that fit my lifestyle.

"I guess I wasn't clear enough, in many places this has had a HUGE impact on people"

Maybe I'm not clear enough either. The world will move on. Bars and restaurants are still opening as if there was never a recession nationwide.

WW2 hero's who put their lives on the line for this gutted out joke called freedom that they sacrificed so much for. These HERO'S have literally been forced out of their own home just to have a smoke

A snapshot comment on DYES. Who do you think I am?

[dadinup]

Lack of hours+lack of money+lack of disposable income=disintegrating neighborhoods. The days when we all used our front porches faded away with my youth back in the '50's. The local pub is the last bastion for the locals to meet other than church. Maybe new bars are opening where you live, but I'm in an aging town where the kids are leaving in droves. There are NO new taverns, or anything else being opened anymore. There is only one bar in the entire town that opens at 7am and they are going to be changing their hours. The smoking ban has been a disaster. So you like the no-smoking ban, now let's see, because I may? want to come in here one day all of you who frequent this bar daily need to go outside and smoke. The numbers don't add up. +1 -9 = out of business.

"A snapshot comment on DYES. Who do you think I am?"

As for that I haven't a clue. I'm stating an observation on the reality of the turning of Vets into second class citizens because they happen to smoke. After 60+ years of doing it I doubt they are going to change because you don't want to smell of smoke. They will, and are, going to die for their beliefs.
By God they won't smoke anymore, though.

[wolverine]

As for that I haven't a clue. I'm stating an observation on the reality of the turning of Vets into second class citizens because they happen to smoke. After 60+ years of doing it I doubt they are going to change because you don't want to smell of smoke. They will, and are, going to die for their beliefs.
By God they won't smoke anymore, though.

Die for their beliefs for the right to smoke.....wow. I'd like to think they will die happy for the services they've provided to their country. Look, quit trying to sensationalize the topic. It's a given with any law there will be people who lose. Yes, veterans who meet under one roof will be more inconvenienced than bar patrons, I agree. Violation of freedoms or not, it may just be a slight health benefit for those who are affected by this law.

[DC48080]

I'm stating an observation on the reality of the turning of Vets into second class citizens because they happen to smoke.

So you think it is ok to make non-smokers second class citizens? You said in an earlier post [[#105) "Don't like smoke? Then Keep the hell OUT." That is brilliant and rather elitist.

I seem to recall that up until about 1964 a certain segment of the population of this country was told to "keep the hell out" of bars, restaurants, lunch counters, certain rest rooms, etc. They couldn't even use certain drinking fountains.

Smokers do have the right to pollute their own bodies all they want. But that right is restricted when it comes to the point of their right impacting the rights of others.

[kryptonite]

I am a person with cancer that may have developed from lifetime exposure to smokers, my father and relatives all smoked. I have only occasionally smoked, mostly a few attempts in my teens to fit in with the neighbor kids.

My smoking relatives were adamant that my brother and I would always know that they regretted starting the habit. Some of them, including my father did quit later in life.

I have had smoking relatives die from cancers and from emphysema, probably the majority of Dyes posters also have lost family members that smoked.

Smoking is a horrible and potentially dangerous, costly, offensive habit and in my opinion the MI ban on smoking is the right thing. I hope the places that have lost some business will recover it, but I do enjoy smoke free bars.

[mlmdetroit]

Rights haven't been taken away from individuals or bar/restaurant owners. Alcohol is legal yet these same bar/restaurant owners are only able to serve during certain hours. The unfortunate thing about the anti-smoking law, which I am in favor of, is that we weren't allowed to vote on it. Statistics show a ban would be passed by over 70% of voters if given the opportunity.

[kryptonite]

This is a horrible disease, cancer. I wish that I could have grown up around non-smokers. But that may have had nothing to do with it. And I spent my share of time in smoke-filled bars since my college days and may have brought this on myself as well.

Of course non-smokers with little exposure to smoke often die of cancer not related to smoking. But let's be realistic - the cancer/tobacco risk factor is well known by now. I think the state legislature acted in our best interests. Limits on smoking privileges continue to expand, more employers are banning smoking from their property including parking areas and greenspaces. The writing is on the wall, at some point smokers will likely be limited to smoking at home and in their vehicles.

[jerrytimes]

6 months later and smokers rights and private business owners rights are still being violated. When will this be repealed? I agree, as a non smoker it's nice to come home after being out with friends at the bar and not smelling like smoke, but it's an illegal law.

[R8RBOB]

6 months later and smokers rights and private business owners rights are still being violated. When will this be repealed? I agree, as a non smoker it's nice to come home after being out with friends at the bar and not smelling like smoke, but it's an illegal law.

Reading this gave me my first laugh of the morning. Smokers rights!!!! You killed it....

[jerrytimes]

Reading this gave me my first laugh of the morning. Smokers rights!!!! You killed it....

Well, everyone has rights, don't they? I guess I worded it that way because they are being singled out, sorta as lower class individuals because they smoke.

Way to contribute something to the conversation by the way.

[jerrytimes]

Rights haven't been taken away from individuals or bar/restaurant owners. Alcohol is legal yet these same bar/restaurant owners are only able to serve during certain hours. The unfortunate thing about the anti-smoking law, which I am in favor of, is that we weren't allowed to vote on it. Statistics show a ban would be passed by over 70% of voters if given the opportunity.

I would have been more in favor of it if the people would have voted it in. Alcohol is the bigger threat to our health, yet they would never think of banning or limiting that. [[not that they should)

[R8RBOB]

Well, everyone has rights, don't they? I guess I worded it that way because they are being singled out, sorta as lower class individuals because they smoke.

Way to contribute something to the conversation by the way.

Dude, I will contribute something just for you. Last time I checked, smokers can still buy a pack of cigarettes, blunts to dump the tobacco if you know what I mean, snuff, pipe tobacco, Tops, pipes, smokeless ashtrays, you name it they can get it. They have these rights because we are not a society that can tell you if you can smoke or not. Stop trying to connect having to smoke outside with putting out the fire for good because no one has stopped a smoker from smoking.

Did I contribute enough for you?

[Crumbled_pavement]

I would have been more in favor of it if the people would have voted it in. Alcohol is the bigger threat to our health, yet they would never think of banning or limiting that. [[not that they should)

Alchohol is different in this case. I can drink and drink and drink myself into a coma and it wouldn't affect your health at all. However, if I smoke then you might have to deal with the second hand smoke depending on where I'm smoking at.

Edit: To add to what R8RBOB wrote, a person's rights to do something ends where it starts infringing on someone else's rights. You can't have a right to smoke if it requires me to smell the smoke.

[kryptonite]

Smokers and drinkers definitely have rights to indulge in those activities.

There are limitations to those rights however, just as there are limitations on the rights to drive a vehicle [[speed limits, no parking zones, handicapped parking, etc.), your rights to play music [[loud music can result in a citation/fine), limits on other activities.

[mjs]

6 months later and smokers rights . . . are still being violated.

Please clarify the specific rights you are refering to. Do these rights allow smoking in hospitals, schools, break rooms, and cafeterias, or just bars? What about bowling alleys with bars? Should little kids that don't want to smoke just suck it up or stay out?

When will this be repealed?

Never according to the polls cited here. Since I've heard of no compelling government interest for the disparity, there's a decent chance the State Supreme Court could invalidate the casino exemption, but its extremely rare for them to invalidate an entire statute when they can simply invalidate a portion of it.

I agree, as a non smoker it's nice to come home after being out with friends at the bar and not smelling like smoke, but it's an illegal law.

By definition, a law can never be illegal. The law is what tells you if something is legal or not. Now, you may mean its unconstitutional. Having studied Constitutional law though, I can't guess at what the rest of the argument is. Smoker is not a constitutionally protected class and we're back to what asking what smoker rights do you think exist.

[jerrytimes]

MJS, I'm not good at quoting things, so I'll just reply to what you typed in order.

What I'm referring to by smokers rights I guess is that they should be allowed to smoke in some public places. Bowling alleys, pool halls, casinos [[which they are), bars that are not restaurants and pretty much just serve alcohol. There are places where smokers should be able to still smoke. I agree that other places like hospitals and schools, smoking shouldn't be allowed. I guess that I feel that they shouldn't be made to go outdoors, especially now that the colder months are coming, to smoke when at a bar or the other places I listed above. I also feel that if a restaurant wants to offer it's customers a separate smoking area, it should be up to the owner to provide that area in his establishment.

OK, so it will never be repealed. That's probably true, but it should have been voted on by the people. If this law was enacted by a vote, I'd have no issue with it.

Laws can be illegal, or unconstitutional. Gay marriage ban in California was found illegal and so was the Arizona immigration law. Smokers are not second class citizens .

[kryptonite]

Smokers are not second class citizens .

Non-smokers make up 70+% of Michigan's population according to the last statistic I saw regarding % of smokers by state.

You are right, non-smokers are not second class, however they are a minority population. Why should over 70% of MI residents continue to be subjected to their habit when in certain public places? After centuries of no limits on smoking in the US and Canada, in the 1960's that began to change in favor of non-smokers.

In some ways I sympathize with smokers having to go outside to smoke. I don't allow smokers to light up in my house regardless of the weather. Of course I feel a bit badly when they step outside in January. Still, I don't want the stench of cigarette smoke in my house for 2-3 days after someone has visited. I started doing that around 1992 after a truly awful ordeal with a group of smokers that left my house reeking for days. No more of that for me.

[fryar]

My information is 2 or 3 years dated, but as a veteran of the That-does-it-I'm-quitting / Eff-it-I'm-smoking-again wars, I used to buy my patches at the Kroger, a former Farmer Jack, I think, up I-75 [[coming from downtown) a little, maybe in Hamtramck or thereabouts, the one with the big LCD clock facing the highway, for only $25 or so. Generics, but so what. I think nowadays, you can get them for that price at Wal-Mart and target as well, if you can find them, and I never had trouble finding them at Kroger.

So there you go. No need to cruise out to Taylor. Party on.