Fox Theater Mezzanine

[kryptonite]

There are several old theaters in Detroit that have booked many bands that have the ability to get patrons on their feet and bouncing with the music. I have seen the mezzanines/balconies move and will admit it is very concerning. But I guess by now if no balconies have collapsed that they are engineered to withstand such forces.

Other than Detroit, nearly every large city has old concert halls that also book bands. I guess the movements of the balconies hasn't caused a collapse yet.

[downtown_racine]

Good ole American steel then I guess.

Amazing how long well built stuff that is taken care of can last whether it be a car or a building.

[56packman]

I was an usher there back when U2 sold out the Fox just before their first arena tour. It was almost impossible to walk across the front of the balcony, it was literally swaying up and down, side to side, as much as a foot at a time. The band actually faltered and almost stopped during "Sunday, Bloody Sunday" while they watched the phenomenon. Chuck Forbes was the owner back then, he had engineers in later that week to confirm what 56packman had noted above: "There are counterweights mounted on moment arms that counteract a great deal of the energy transmitted into the balcony structure". The beams are also made from flex steel, designed to move. Much of the plaster is actually suspended, not stuck solid to ceilings, so it has the ability to move also.

Bluenote--the counterweight/reactors weren't installed into the balcony structure until the 1987-88 restoration, which was paid for by Mike and Marion Ilitch, after they bought the theater from Chuck Forbes. Not on Chuck's watch.

[mauser]

Yes - I have felt that mezzanine sway when people up there dance.

[mauser]

Yeah - was during both U2 and REM back in the 80's

[buildingsofdetroit]

Felt the Fox balcony swaying when I saw the Stooges there a few years back. I wouldn't worry about it.

[Wesley Mouch]

1) First five rows of Fox balcony in front of cross-aisle are branded 'mezzanine'. [[The real 'mezzanine' is the smaller 'suite level' between main floor and balcony -- see definition of mezzanine)

2) New 'mass dampener' system installed by Ilitch during renovation at cost around $100,000 changed resonant frequency of balcony to a very low frequency. This prevents 'Tacoma-Narrows' resonance problem.

3) System was installed under design and supervision of UofMich Professor Hansen. System is still maintained by now Professor Mehdi Setareh of Virginia Tech. All activity is monitored by internet. Sensors track both balcony and the dampening system to make sure it works. Dr. Setareh is a world-leading expert on balcony structures, and consulted, for example, on the new Mormon assembly hall in SLC, UT.

4) Balcony movement not a cause for concern. Total measured movement well under 1/2 inch. It never moved 'one foot'. Try moving your hand back and forth 1 foot in beat to B52 song. You'll see what I mean. Human body is very sensitive to movement underfoot. Can detect movement of as little as thousands of an inch. If it had ever moved 1 foot in time with the music, theatregoers would have had broken backs or been tossed against the ceiling.

[RYANGUARD]

I was in the balcony of the Grand Circus Theatre during a Stray Cats concert in the early 80's and encountered the feeling of the balcony moving,and I was glad that I was in the balcony and not on the main floor.I'm sure that with all of the repairs that were done on the now Opera House that this was taken care of.At least I hope it was taken care of....

[Patrick]

Has there ever been a collapse due to the crowd dancing in any theater?

[Adam101]

Bounce A lil? Yea it moves... so do Steel and wood Rollercoasters.......Both are good things.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9xbK...eature=related

Or the St. Louis fox bouncinnnn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxCPa7wgGTI&NR=1

What I dont get is how is the plaster not weakened by this bouncing, I know its[[ the plaster) suspended but still... I'm sure there wasn't this much action when the theater was only showing plays in the 20's etc

[Jimaz]

Has there ever been a collapse due to the crowd dancing in any theater?

Similar: Hyatt Regency walkway collapse.

[Gistok]

Has there ever been a collapse due to the crowd dancing in any theater?

I did some searching and the only "interior" collapse that I could find was that walkway in Kansas City.

There have been other collapses, but they were earthquake related.

Even though music amplification is way more than the 1920s when the movie palace were built [[with those huge theatre organs)... I have found no known collapse of any theatre interiors related to loud music or fans [[the big band era was the real test in the late 30s and 40s of dancing patrons effect on balconies and mezzanines).

To paraphrase 56packman... "they overbuilt those MoFo's to last"!!

In fact more than one demolition company has been driven to bankrupcy trying to demolish some of the larger now gone movie palaces.

[detroitbob]

Safety and Engineering , City of Detroit used to have the load bearing test photographs Once the balcony concrete was poured, cured and dried, absurd amounts of weight were put in place to test the integrity of the structure. All of the balcony structures in any theatre were always tested like this. I saw copies of the pictures years ago, but not sure where the orignals are. Manning Brothers did contract work, so they might be part of the Manning file on the Fox. The Fox, Opera House, Fisher, etc. are all similar designs and like a suspension bridge are supposed to 'give'...no worry at all.

[Gistok]

Thanks detroitbob...

People don't generally realize just how complex and engineering intensive old movie palaces were.... especially on a massive scale like the Detroit Fox. Not just the engineering, load bearing, spanning, mechanical... but also the acoustic and artistic aspects of them.

Detroit is lucky to have so many massive "marvels of engineering" theatres left. In NYC [[Manhattan), besides the relatively tame Radio City Music Hall... all the Broadway and Midtown giants are gone... the Roxy, Capitol, Loew's State, Paramount... the list goes on and on... all the Broadway/42nd St. [[legitimate) theatres that remain are small by comparison [[mostly less than 2,000 seats).

[detroitbob]

The theatre's and for that fact, the "new fangled" high rise buildings were always overbuilt...in fact the only major theatre failure from that period that I am aware of was in the Washington DC area, after unusually heavy snow the roof structure failed and caused a collapse. These load tests were amazing and were always clearly documented and used as 'promo' pieces in ads and newspapers plus architectural periodicals.

One of the first Detroit buildings of note, to have cantilevered balcony in place was [[is) St. John's Episcopal Church, Woodward and Fisher XWay. When the building opened circa 1861 members of the congregation were terrified to sit under the balcony as it appeared there was no means of support. Shortly thereafter box beams and decorative wood trim was added to give the illusion of the balcony being supported, although the "beams", still in place today have no structural purpose. The added support columns and Gothic arches in the nave today were added to support the free span wooden hammer beam roof structure when the entire church was moved some 60 feet during the widening of Woodward in the mid 1930's. The moving and renovations were supervised by Writ Rowland of Guardian Bldg fame.

[Patrick]

I remember being on the "balcony" at Clutch Cargos and could feel it bounce and move during a few shows.

[Baselinepunk]

Ryanguard -- I was at that show, too. Great show.

[Zacha341]

Wow... I don't think I will sit under that anytime soon if I can avoid it. Plaster in the head does not sound like a fun evening... LOL!

The last few times I was there ware for quiet stuff and fund raiser events or plays sitting in the "round" first few from the front. I simply love the Fox Theater and hope they are maintaining everything as they should so it can be enjoyed many more years.

[Big Dog]

GPcharles, Are you sure you weren't in an altered state of consciousness? <G>

[Hamtragedy]

I was also at the U2 show in '84, and watched the balcony sway. We were directly beneath the balcony, so close, in fact, that we stood on the backs of our chairs and actually "held on" to the ceiling for balance.

[GPCharles]

Big Dog - Not these days...