Historic Pewabic tiles destroyed in Belle Isle fountain restoration

**PeachLaser** · September-19-10, 07:53 AM

I thought that there were industrial-strength epoxies that could cover the tiles to protect and strong enough to seal the leaks while being transparent. Something I would try first.

**dcitizen** · September-19-10, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

Destroyed the fountain to save it. Nice.

It is stuff like this that makes me a tad upset and completely disinclined to imagine a time when Detroit will ever pull its head out of its ass.

Didn't they think to sell the pieces? Raise some dough through creative re-use. nah. Jackhammers. Dump. and turn the fountain into something with all the charm of a freeway entrance ramp.

You have hit on exactly the point which the Gallagher artcile missed. Yes the tiles were removed in an insensitive manner, but why is the fountain not being "restored" to its original appearance? Freeway ramp is a great description! All that concrete and no art!

**motivedetroit** · September-19-10, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by lilpup

Don't know if that affects the fountain or not but from what I understand today's Pewabic doesn't even have all of the rights to Chase Stratton's work. There was in particular a certain glaze she was known for that they don't use today.

I have a friend that works for Pewabic and he's told me that some of the glazes she used to use are VERY poisonous...I believe some are actually radioactive. Weird.

**motivedetroit** · September-19-10, 10:53 AM

Pewabic still has the original molds and drawings from the Scott fountain. They replaced a 10-15' freize on the fountain 15 years or so ago. Then someone coated it with white latex to stop some leaking issues. Probably not the best idea. So, in theory they could replace the tiles...but it wouldn't be cheap.

**Baselinepunk** · September-19-10, 11:44 AM

"I have a friend that works for Pewabic and he's told me that some of the glazes she used to use are VERY poisonous...I believe some are actually radioactive. Weird."

Thus, could be a reason why they had to come out.

**English** · September-19-10, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by motivedetroit

I have a friend that works for Pewabic and he's told me that some of the glazes she used to use are VERY poisonous...I believe some are actually radioactive. Weird.

Ahhh... the age of absinthe. When Coca-Cola actually contained cocaine as an ingredient, and Marie Curie was making world-changing discoveries while exposing herself to high levels of radiation. Sigh. Those were the days!

**REL** · September-19-10, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by Kathleen

At the very least, both Pewabic Pottery and the Detroit HIstorical Museum should have been given the opportunity to salvage some of the tiles for future historical displays. There was some pretty unique Pewabic design in the Scott Fountain.

Agreed, Kathleen. Pewabic, the Historical Museum, Preservation Wayne... any of them could have been contacted and I'm sure they would have had a team of volunteers there in a heartbeat.

**REL** · September-19-10, 03:58 PM

Here is what I have been told in the past, directly from the pottery:

Some of her formulas contained lead, uranium [[?) and other materials that we now know to be somewhat toxic. Their glaze formulas face extinction even now. They stopped producing their shiny red glaze a few years ago, because it contains some element that is now illegal to mine, due to environmental protection restrictions.

**dcitizen** · September-19-10, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by PeachLaser

I thought that there were industrial-strength epoxies that could cover the tiles to protect and strong enough to seal the leaks while being transparent. Something I would try first.

It was tried. Grunwell-Cashero was hired to do just that. Apply waterproofing. They use pressure hoses to remove the application applied 4-5 years ago. They discovered that the bowl was cracked in many places, grout missing from between the tiles, etc and the previous contractor had scarified the entire bowl and the Pewabic tiles to enhance the penetration of the sealant. No amount of sealant would hold that much water without leaking. The decision was made to removed the bowl and tile and pour a new bowl. My beef is that no plan is in place to replace or replicate the Pewabic tiles. So the "restored" fountain no longer has Pewabic tile. I feel this changes the historic character of the fountain which is listed on the National Register of Historic Places. I cannot believe the Historic Commission would allow a building permit to be issued to this plan without addressing the removal and non-replacement of the Pewabic tile.

**dcitizen** · September-19-10, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by motivedetroit

Pewabic still has the original molds and drawings from the Scott fountain. They replaced a 10-15' freize on the fountain 15 years or so ago. Then someone coated it with white latex to stop some leaking issues. Probably not the best idea. So, in theory they could replace the tiles...but it wouldn't be cheap.

Who knows since Pewabic Pottery has not been contacted by anyone paying for this project, [["City of Detroit, Downtown Detroit Partnership, and other sources" according to the Gallagher article) about how much it would cost! It would be nice to have a figure to work with instead of assuming it is too costly. The original tile was laid flush with the concrete bowl. Since the new concrete bowl has been laid there is no place for the tile to go. Glue it on top of the cement?

**dcitizen** · September-19-10, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by Midtown

Ask Chuck Forbes he stripped the tiles from the YMCA Pool, it takes time and patience none of which was exhibited by the contractor or by the people who wrote the bid specs for the renovation.

Bob

Who wrote the bid specs? Do you think this really went to bid? Can you shed any light on this?

**dcitizen** · September-19-10, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by mauser

Here is the new Scott Fountain Skateboard Park - and its totally RAD dudes !

http://www.detroitfunk.com/?p=4756

I hope and pray that these asshats are never called on to repair a leak in the plaster ceiling of the Sistine Chapel....."Im sorry, it was just too expensive to save the paintings, so....we jackhammered them out and threw them away....."

Yeah right - WERE ARE THE TILES ?

They did not put them in any landfill. I call BS on that one.

OTHER PEOPLES MONEY ? This is a public monument, it is public commons. They had no right to do it wrong. And that contractor does not own the tiles that were taken from the fountain. They need to be returned.

I agree, the amount of tiles the city has are no where near what was removed. Remember this is the contractor that "lost" the lion head for Bagley Fountain. I heard an uncomfirmed report that some workers took some of the tiles.

**dcitizen** · September-19-10, 05:17 PM

I would suggest that any Detroiter concerned with the Pewabic tiles call the Detroit Historic Commission to ask them why they allowed a building permit to be issued for work that would permanently alter the appearance of the Scott Fountain, which is listed on the National Register of Historic Places. Don't fall for the Section 106 baloney removing them of responsibility because federal funds were not used. The Historic Commissions purpose is to protect these monuments at the local level and to deny permits through the Building Department and offer suggestions and alternatives when construction needs to occur.

**Baselinepunk** · September-19-10, 06:59 PM

Thank you, dcitizen for adding relevant context to this situation and suggestions for action.

**Gistok** · September-20-10, 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by REL

Here is what I have been told in the past, directly from the pottery:

Some of her formulas contained lead, uranium [[?) and other materials that we now know to be somewhat toxic. Their glaze formulas face extinction even now. They stopped producing their shiny red glaze a few years ago, because it contains some element that is now illegal to mine, due to environmental protection restrictions.

Where will this all end... first LEGO was ordered to take the heavy metal Cadmium out of the ABS plastic they used to produced their red and yellow plastic bricks... and now Pewabic cannot produce their red glaze?? Next thing you know the Chinese will be forced to take the poisons out of their American destined toys!!

[[Silly Alert off)

Actually LEGO did use Cadmium to produce red and yellow bricks from 1963-73... but it doesn't leach out... and that some of Mary Chase Perry Stratton's glazes had some health hazards...

**n7hn** · September-20-10, 12:38 PM

Usually there is only a concern in glazes if meant for food use. Go to Pier 1 to verify :"for decorative use only" appears on alot of imported ceramics. ANy leeching from the tiles should not be enuff to poison any wildlife due to the amount of water in that fountain as opposed to any surface area of tile. I know I wont be drinking from the scott fountain, would you?

**Baselinepunk** · September-20-10, 08:08 PM

Nope, I wouldn't be one of the people drinking from the fountain, but I've been there more than a few times when kiddies have been splashing around in there ...

DetroitDad · September-20-10, 08:23 PM

I think that this thread alone has proven that there are concerned citizens and organizations that would have been inclined to help raise money, if they were just made aware. I think there is something wrong with choosing not to ask, that may possibly show intent.

**Huggybear** · September-20-10, 09:20 PM

1. Tile is not set directly in cement. It's set into a mortar coat above it [[you actually couldn't set tile like that in the short time it would take the cement to dry). The tile can be fabricated and replaced - "flush" - anytime someone comes up with the money to do it. You can see from DetroitFunk's pictures that all they did over the years was overcoat around the tile, which caused it to be below the surface of the bowl [[and this no doubt contributed to its decay as well as what was underneath).

2. I'm curious why anyone would think that it would be in any way cost-effective [[or even useful) to clean thousands of faded, abraded, and abused tile fragments rather than simply replicating the pattern with new ones. You're better off from an appearance standpoint, there is better integrity in the finished product, and it costs less to do new. No matter how zealous the view of historic preservation standards, you are not required to use the actual original materials in the reconstruction. I would say that if you want that fountain to look as good as it did when built, change the tile to new.

3. And is this really an insoluble loss? The tile pieces themselves are not exotic in any way - and since you are already putting it in a chlorinated fountain that is undrinkable, you can use non-food-safe glazes. I'm sure that if you wave a job like this in front of Pewabic, it will be happy to make you all the tile pieces you need. And the pattern both repeats and is represented sufficiently in photographs to make a nice [[if not exact) facsimile from the same types of materials.

This is an issue about money and an incomplete restoration that can be completed at any time there is money/labor available. So instead of everyone getting their American Apparel® onesies in a knot, let's come up with some creative solution to replace the tile. Maybe have volunteers work at Pewabic making the pieces. Or do a fundraiser.

And by the way, these aren't even very visible when the fountain is running - so it's not like someone spray painted the Mona Lisa's face or took a crowbar to the exterior marble.

What does need to go, though, is that ugly black iron rail that was added after the fact above the cascading fountains.

Originally Posted by dcitizen

Who knows since Pewabic Pottery has not been contacted by anyone paying for this project, [["City of Detroit, Downtown Detroit Partnership, and other sources" according to the Gallagher article) about how much it would cost! It would be nice to have a figure to work with instead of assuming it is too costly. The original tile was laid flush with the concrete bowl. Since the new concrete bowl has been laid there is no place for the tile to go. Glue it on top of the cement?

**kathy2trips** · September-20-10, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by n7hn

I would be happy to recreate and install the design in mosaic tiles in exchange for a useable vacant home. Im just saying...... I do nice mosaics too, shoot, call me "Ms Perry" while I do it too, someone gave her a chance. Start a new history while honoring the old.....

That's an awesome talent! I salute U.

**kathy2trips** · September-20-10, 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by Baselinepunk

I'm getting the feeling that there is a lot more to what is going on than what is being presented on this thread.

Like what? Do you have unanswered questions?

**EastsideAl** · September-21-10, 04:50 AM

The previous idiot cheapie contractor hired by Mr. "pave over that park so we can race our incredibly expensive cars on it" Roger Penske were the ones who wrecked the tile. Penske was in a huge hurry to "waterproof" the fountain before his first race around it about 5 years ago, so he hired people who cluelessly "scarified" [[i.e. scraped the hell out of and punched little holes in) the tiles so that the cheap-ass epoxy they were using would soak in quickly.

People don't want to hear it, but Penske has done much more damage to the park than anything that his two money-losing races brought in was worth. None of it was any benefit to the people who actually use the park on a week-to-week basis, and it has ruined, and continues to destroy, the aesthetic and historical character of one of the park's most beautiful sections.

**EastsideAl** · September-21-10, 05:10 AM

Originally Posted by Huggybear

I'm curious why anyone would think that it would be in any way cost-effective [[or even useful) to clean thousands of faded, abraded, and abused tile fragments rather than simply replicating the pattern with new ones. You're better off from an appearance standpoint, there is better integrity in the finished product, and it costs less to do new. No matter how zealous the view of historic preservation standards, you are not required to use the actual original materials in the reconstruction. I would say that if you want that fountain to look as good as it did when built, change the tile to new.

But this is not what was done, the tile was replaced with a plain concrete bowl. If it had been replaced with new tile, it would still not really be a restoration, but at least some of the historic aesthetic character of the fountain would have been preserved for future generations. However, as is stated above by many posters, like most older Pewabic tile installations around Detroit, a lot of the tiles had glazes that were irreplacable and unreplicable, even by the present-day Pewabic Pottery itself. Preserving such irreplacable materials is the very heart of real historic preservation and restoration.

As for the "faded, abraded, and abused tile fragments," of course it would have been much better if their protective glazes not been cluelessly damaged by Penske's fly-by-night waterproofing contractor in the first damn place. As Lowell says above, tile installations often last for thousands of years, and there are a number of Pewabic installations around the area that have survived just fine with minimal care, just as long as someone didn't maul them in the name of expediency.

**Baselinepunk** · September-21-10, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by kathy2trips

Like what? Do you have unanswered questions?

If I remember right that statement was a little earlier in the thread and subsequently more context was provided. Still, this context is only one-sided because we have not heard from the client or the contractor [[from themselves) about the reasoning behind the action.

I never want to burn a witch until the hearing the witch speak; that's just how I am.

**REL** · September-21-10, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by n7hn

Usually there is only a concern in glazes if meant for food use. Go to Pier 1 to verify :"for decorative use only" appears on alot of imported ceramics. ANy leeching from the tiles should not be enuff to poison any wildlife due to the amount of water in that fountain as opposed to any surface area of tile. I know I wont be drinking from the scott fountain, would you?

*Smile* I had to giggle to myself as I pictured someone licking the tiles. No, it's not a problem in terms of eating from the fountain like a giant fruit bowl

However, the production process of highly toxic. Anytime you expose certain elements or materials to extreme heat, like in a kiln, you release more toxins not just into the environment, but into the bodies of the people who make the product.