What will happen to Oakland County?

[lincoln8740]

Now, see, folks? You can always tell when people are confident in their arguments and have a command of the facts when they start taking personal pot shots. Nice form, Fury13. Nice form.

so says the guy that calls people trolls

ahh the ever hypocritical Detroitnerd

nice form, Detroitnerd, nice form

[Detroitnerd]

Trolling again, lincoln?

[DetroitDad]

If the METRO DETROIT area doesn't work together to make itself as a whole attractive to people and businesses outside of the METRO DETROIT area, then the METRO DETROIT area will continue to decline. Worrying about people moving from one part of the METRO DETROIT area to another is backwards thinking that has contributed to our problems while solving none of them.

And yes, I put fixing Detroit at the top of the agenda as far as fixing the METRO DETROIT area.

That all sounds good, but doesn't amount to much more than winning a crowd through blind cheer leading, does it JohnLodge?

[Stosh]

That all sounds good, but doesn't amount to much more than winning a crowd through blind cheer leading, does it JohnLodge?

That hasn't stopped you all these years, that's kind of like the pot calling the kettle black isnt it?

Strap on your blindfold and get those pom-poms going! Rah Rah!

[Danny]

WHITE DETROIT population 1,205,000

Mayor: L.B. Patterson

Southfield is Paradise Valley and Downtown Detroit.

Oak Park and Royal Oak TWP. is Black Bottom.

West Bloomfield, Farmington Hills, Bloomfield Hills and Commence TWP is part of Jewish Paradise Valley.

North Central Pontiac is Mexican Village.

North Side Pontic is Mexicantown.

Troy is Little India.

Ferndale is Gaytown.

Downtown Royal Oak and Downtown Birmingham is New Center Area.

Madison Heights is Chinatown.

Hazel Park is Brightmoore.

Apple Island in Orchard Lake is Belle Isle.


WHITE DETROIT rivals BLACK DETROIT through its race, politics and regionalization and we're going to find out who wins the recognition to be the best city in Michigan.

[Hermod]

It may be very difficult to believe, given a lifetime of metro Detroit conditioning, but cities are really driving development in metro areas. And the cities that are doing best have the fewest suburbs, because they can annex them right away. The places that are hurting the most are "suburbs without cities," such as Fort Lauderdale.

I currently live in a suburb of the "suburb" of Ft Lauderdale.

We are "hurting" right now because of the housing crisis. As it eases, we will be back to normal.

I can walk on tree-shaded sidewalks to the following places within a mile walk:

Public library and city hall.

Shopping center with Macy's, Sear's, Penney's, Office Depot, Big Lots, Lowe's, and a gym.

Three strip centers with supermarkets. One has a TJ Max and a Staple's.

A Walgreen's and a CVS.

Four fast food places and four restaurants.

Can you do that in "sustainable" Detroit?

EDIT TO ADD: I am highly unlikely to get mugged by an "orc" or to be solicited by a panhandler on my walk.

[Stosh]

WHITE DETROIT population 1,205,000

Mayor: L.B. Patterson

Southfield is Paradise Valley and Downtown Detroit.

Oak Park and Royal Oak TWP. is Black Bottom.

West Bloomfield, Farmington Hills, Bloomfield Hills and Commence TWP is part of Jewish Paradise Valley.

North Central Pontiac is Mexican Village.

North Side Pontic is Mexicantown.

Troy is Little India.

Ferndale is Gaytown.

Downtown Royal Oak and Downtown Birmingham is New Center Area.

Madison Heights is Chinatown.

Hazel Park is Brightmoore.

Apple Island in Orchard Lake is Belle Isle.


WHITE DETROIT rivals BLACK DETROIT through its race, politics and regionalization and we're going to find out who wins the recognition to be the best city in Michigan.

And Danny is in Dreamland. Your post is, as all your posts are, non sequitur.

And Neda is alive. I don't miss her at all.

[JBMcB]

It has no sense of identity and no sense of unity in terms of getting regional projects done.

You have to fix the management of Detroit first. Nobody wants to do business with the city due to systemic corruption and mismanagement. Other areas get along relatively well - for example, Oakland, Macomb and Wayne counties banding together to fix the Oakland-Macomb interceptor.

[Detroitnerd]

I currently live in a suburb of the "suburb" of Ft Lauderdale.

Suburb is in quotes because there is no city there to anchor all that suburban development?

We are "hurting" right now because of the housing crisis. As it eases, we will be back to normal.

An area riding a housing bubble and generous subsidies for construction and cheap oil. In other words, just like Oakland County: Waiting for the growth machine to be switched back on. I have some bad news ...

I can walk on tree-shaded sidewalks to the following places within a mile walk:

Public library and city hall.

Shopping center with Macy's, Sear's, Penney's, Office Depot, Big Lots, Lowe's, and a gym.

Three strip centers with supermarkets. One has a TJ Max and a Staple's.

A Walgreen's and a CVS.

Four fast food places and four restaurants.

Can you do that in "sustainable" Detroit?

Yes, although I technically live in Detroit, I can walk on tree-shaded sidewalks to the following places within a mile walk in Hamtramck:

Public library, city hall and courthouse.

Shopping strip with bars, gyms, shopping [[clothes, records, antiques, old electronics, resale shops, etc.) and more.

Multiple strip centers with cheap, healthful food from our Yemeni and Bangladeshi grocers.

A CVS [[no Walgreen's).

Many kinds of affordable restaurants [[Mexican, Polish, Middle Eastern, Bangladeshi, American, diner, fast food).

And this is not all floating on a sea of cheap oil, a bubble of cheap credit or any market distortion made available by public policy. It is a solid, polyethnic community built along the "good bones" of a city founded 88 years ago.

Given the fact that the neighborhood you live in is suffering through a terrible crisis that likely won't end [[commercial real estate is primed to tank [["Goodbye CVS and Walgreens! Goodbye strip centers! Goodbye mini-mall!"), which do you think is more "sustainable"?

EDIT TO ADD: I am highly unlikely to get mugged by an "orc" or to be solicited by a panhandler on my walk.

Yes, public safety is becoming a problem everywhere -- now even in places that were formerly considered safe from it. How do you combat it? Every neighborhood in Hamtramck has its own neighborhood watch. And people are pretty active in it here. Unless they choose to withdraw their resources and move to places where they have the illusion of safety.

[lincoln8740]

And Neda is alive. I don't miss her at all.

Now that is funny

[mwilbert]

The entire region has a problem attracting in-migrants and retaining its young people. Obviously part of that is the economic situation, but it was true even when things were better. As has been pointed out by previous posters, Oakland County has been able to maintain its population because of the large outmigration from the center city, but as most of the people who both want to and can leave already have, that isn't likely to continue at anything like the same rate indefinitely.

My opinion is that an attractive city makes any region more appealing, that this area, which already has some other issues, has more need of that appeal than most, and that unless the region gets its act together in a way that seems extremely unlikely at the moment, Oakland County will decline along with everything else as the population falls and the less attractive parts of the region empty out. This isn't going to be a rapid process, and so I'm sure many people will not recognize the problem for another decade or two.

I am not saying this is inevitable, but it seems the most probable outcome.

[BrushStart]

The entire region has a problem attracting in-migrants and retaining its young people. Obviously part of that is the economic situation, but it was true even when things were better. As has been pointed out by previous posters, Oakland County has been able to maintain its population because of the large outmigration from the center city, but as most of the people who both want to and can leave already have, that isn't likely to continue at anything like the same rate indefinitely.

My opinion is that an attractive city makes any region more appealing, that this area, which already has some other issues, has more need of that appeal than most, and that unless the region gets its act together in a way that seems extremely unlikely at the moment, Oakland County will decline along with everything else as the population falls and the less attractive parts of the region empty out. This isn't going to be a rapid process, and so I'm sure many people will not recognize the problem for another decade or two.

I am not saying this is inevitable, but it seems the most probable outcome.

What I can't figure out is, why? Why are the people of this region so adverse to advancement? Every time there is a possibility to seize upon something to better the region, people adamantly oppose it. The Aerotropolis, light rail, the bridge to Canada, a unified bus system, rapid-transit between Detroit and AA, people even opposed the upgrades to Metro Airport. There are literally dozens of examples, big and small, and the region just will not get behind any investment on infrastructure. It's like they are all waiting for something, or that they are so in shock about the situation that they aren't taking any steps forward. As other regions leave Metro Detroit in the dust, we just sit here and watch our future crumble. It's insanity. There needs to be one regional leader who is intelligent and vocal about saving Southeast Michigan. He needs to give people the facts about the sustainability of the region and be straight about the immense efforts that will need to be made to survive. What is happening now is far beyond the problems in Detroit, I think the dawn is red for all of Southeastern Michigan unless something big happens and soon.

[MrSam]

What I can't figure out is, why? Why are the people of this region so adverse to advancement? Every time there is a possibility to seize upon something to better the region, people adamantly oppose it. The Aerotropolis, light rail, the bridge to Canada, a unified bus system, rapid-transit between Detroit and AA, people even opposed the upgrades to Metro Airport. There are literally dozens of examples, big and small, and the region just will not get behind any investment on infrastructure. It's like they are all waiting for something, or that they are so in shock about the situation that they aren't taking any steps forward. As other regions leave Metro Detroit in the dust, we just sit here and watch our future crumble. It's insanity. There needs to be one regional leader who is intelligent and vocal about saving Southeast Michigan. He needs to give people the facts about the sustainability of the region and be straight about the immense efforts that will need to be made to survive. What is happening now is far beyond the problems in Detroit, I think the dawn is red for all of Southeastern Michigan unless something big happens and soon.

That's a perfect observation of the region.

The black upper & middle class, along with the section eighters exodus from Detroit into oakland & macomb county, over the last 10 years is what subtaining those counties from sinking into massive population declines & ghost cities.

Also I'm so sick of oakland & macomb backwards politics against wayne county & the city of detroit. Although I live in OC, if this region can't get its act together in the next 2-3 years, I'm out while I'm still young & will be moving into a more youthful, better educated, & progressive state.

I don't want to start a family & business in this racist hell hole of a backwards state.

[lincoln8740]

Yes, although I technically live in Detroit, I can walk on tree-shaded sidewalks to the following places within a mile walk in Hamtramck:

Public library, city hall and courthouse.

Shopping strip with bars, gyms, shopping [[clothes, records, antiques, old electronics, resale shops, etc.) and more.

Multiple strip centers with cheap, healthful food from our Yemeni and Bangladeshi grocers.

A CVS [[no Walgreen's).

Many kinds of affordable restaurants [[Mexican, Polish, Middle Eastern, Bangladeshi, American, diner, fast food)..

Yes I am sure Hermod's neighborhood and Hamtramck are exactly the same. Hell you have SHOPPERS WORLD!!

Quick test--who can buy an Obama T-shirt quicker you or Hermod?

I am guessing you would win that contest hands down and that tells you a lot about Hamtramck's "shopping options"

Better question:

How many different dollar stores are a part of your wonderful "shopping stroll"?

Comapring a suburb in Florida to Hamtramck--Really?

Yes, public safety is becoming a problem everywhere -- now even in places that were formerly considered safe from it. How do you combat it? Every neighborhood in Hamtramck has its own neighborhood watch. And people are pretty active in it here. Unless they choose to withdraw their resources and move to places where they have the illusion of safety.

Now I have heard it all. There is no "illusion" of safety when there are stats that clearly show one area is more crime ridden than the other.

Damn, I am wasting a lot of money on real estate taxes in SCS on the "illusion" of safety.!


Brilliant, just brilliant

[Detroitnerd]

Yes I am sure Hermod's neighborhood and Hamtramck are exactly the same. Hell you have SHOPPERS WORLD!!
Quick test--who can buy an Obama T-shirt quicker you or Hermod?
I am guessing you would win that contest hands down and that tells you a lot about Hamtramck's "shopping options"
Better question:
How many different dollar stores are a part of your wonderful "shopping stroll"?
Comapring a suburb in Florida to Hamtramck--Really?
Now I have heard it all. There is no "illusion" of safety when there are stats that clearly show one area is more crime ridden than the other.
Damn, I am wasting a lot of money on real estate taxes in SCS on the "illusion" of safety.!
Brilliant, just brilliant

And then he wonders why people call him a troll.

[lincoln8740]

And then he wonders why people call him a troll.

ahh name calling, attack the messenger and not the message......Nice!

Sorry, but I just couldn't pass up your theory of the " illusion of safety".

That theory might actually get people to move back into the city.

[maxx]

Every time there is a possibility to seize upon something to better the region, people adamantly oppose it. The Aerotropolis, light rail, the bridge to Canada, a unified bus system, rapid-transit between Detroit and AA, people even opposed the upgrades to Metro Airport.

RE: the unified bus system and rapid transit between Detroit and AA
I think people in Ann Arbor and the suburbs don't see that many advantages for them in these projects.
I would guess that the opposition to the airport was based on the fear of additional taxes. With the decline of newspapers, it is more and more difficult to get information to a lot of people. The bridge issue appears to be strictly political. Matty Maroun contributes to a lot of people's campaigns.

For what it's worth:
Metropolitan Organizing Strategy Enabling Strength, better known as MOSES, is holding its 2010 public meeting to discuss regional issues in the Metro Detroit area on Sunday, October 10, at 3:30 pm. The meetings location is Bethel AME Church, 5050 Richard Allen Blvd., Detroit, Michigan 48202 [[Warren & I-75).
RSVP with your congregation or at MOSES [[313) 962-5290.

[Pingu]

I wouldn't be so quick to say that. As I pointed out in the original post, the suburbs get their "growth" from the city. They aren't attracting out-of-region migrants themselves. So what happens to the suburbs when the city [[the source) dries up? Since Detroit is also unable to attract migrants in its current state...

Translation: The suburbs suck because the only people who want to move there are people living in Detroit, and once Detroit runs out of people to move to the suburbs, the situation out in the suburbs goes from "suck" to "worse".

[kathy2trips]

Lincoln would like proof, which is a fair request. In turn, though, I would also like proof. What urbanized area in the United States is doing well without a well-functioning city center? If your theories hold water, reel off a dozen examples please.

Houston.

And they're doing quite well, thank you, in spite of the recent detrimental actions of the Federal gov't regarding NASA, oil industry, medical industry, taking gov't contracts away from the state, etc.

This is because Houston has several "city centers", not just one. Downtown, the Medical Center, the Galleria, Greenway Plaza, the Woodlands [[which may or may not separate from Houston) are all considered "City Centers" or commercial districts. Visitors easily mistake these areas for "downtown" all the time, as they all have skyscrapers.

I'm not as well traveled as many of the posters, but I live in Houston and know that this is a fact. Also, downtown Houston has a higher office vacancy rate than any of the other areas, so I suppose that would make it a "weak" city center, especially when compared to the other areas.

[iheartthed]

Translation: The suburbs suck because the only people who want to move there are people living in Detroit, and once Detroit runs out of people to move to the suburbs, the situation out in the suburbs goes from "suck" to "worse".

No, that isn't the translation.

My point is that Detroit has always been the feeder for Oakland County suburbs, just as major cities across the country tend to be the primary feeder for new residents to the suburbs. So if Detroit isn't attracting new residents to eventually feed the suburbs then what happens to the suburbs?

[cmubryan]

SE Oakland County reminds me of Detroit around the time I was a little girl. Judging from my personal circles, it seems like the crowd that used to live in NW Detroit now lives in Southfield, Oak Park, and some are in Farmington Hills. The types whose parents moved into Southfield back in the 1970s and early 1980s for the "schools" are heading towards Novi, Wixom, and Walled Lake.

There's quite a bit of life still in SE Oakland. However, there's quite a bit of vacant commercial real estate [[and growing), and you can find homes for sale for prices that are worrying for potential buyers. This matters because that part of the county is the most urban, and likely the most sustainable. I know exurb dwellers are happy right now driving to the big box retailers, but gas absolutely will go to $5 per gallon within the decade. There will always be people who will choose a rural life, but sometime soon, most people will have to choose whether to be a city mouse or a country mouse.

Oakland County will prosper if we can do some things to make our region and our nation prosper -- specifically, rebuilding all of our infrastructure over the next 20-50 years. The problem is that the generations in power just don't have a long range vision for our nation and our world. A growing number of the kids under 40 do. They're waiting in the wings, and will have their shot at it soon. We'll just have to wait and see.

My part of SE OC is doing just fine. I live at 11 and Coolidge in Huntington Woods and it seems like new businesses are still coming in to Royal Oak, Birmingham and Ferndale all the time. I chose to live here because to me it was the most city-like environment in the area with quality public schools and a responsvile police department. Also, I was living downtown in Lafayette Park prior to purchasing my home and my fiance refused to purchase something in the city of Detroit due to the schools and crime so this was my next best option. If she would have had it her way we would be living in Commerce Twp or Novi, yuck.

[mwilbert]

My part of SE OC is doing just fine. I live at 11 and Coolidge in Huntington Woods and it seems like new businesses are still coming in to Royal Oak, Birmingham and Ferndale all the time. I chose to live here because to me it was the most city-like environment in the area with quality public schools and a responsvile police department.

This doesn't really address the problem that iheartthed and I [[and other people) are pointing out. You moved to Oakland County from Detroit. Everyone agrees that people move from Detroit to Oakland County. The question is how does the supply of people in Detroit get replenished, and what happens to Oakland County if it does not, as the region currently has problems attracting people from elsewhere and problems retaining its young people. The fact that there are businesses there now doesn't really speak to that.

I love Huntington Woods, but [[based on test scores and anecdote) once you move out of the elementary school, which is excellent, quality drops off a lot.

[casscorridor]

If you think a Royal Joke is urban you are in a state of delusion. Having a walkable downtown doesnt mean the place is urban. Malls are walkable, are they and the surrounding community therefore urban? There is no fundemental difference. You drive and park and walk around at both. One is indoor and gives you a certian feeling, the other is outdoor and makes you feel like you are in a real city, a different feeling.

Heck, most of Detroit doesn't even qualify. It is more like suburban layout with urban problems. So if my choices of physical layout are the same, why choose the place with problems? Why not live in Royal Oak where I can safely live out my delusion of urbanity?

This is exactly the problem. Detroit will never win residents so long as we have all the typical urban problems without an urban neighborhood layout. We need to expand and build up new authenticaly urban neighborhoods based around mass transit and diversity of housing and transportation options, and building up existing historic neighborhoods. Not possible in the burbs, so they can't compete. Play on our strengths-- urbanity and diversity, not weaknesses-- suburban layout/urban problems.

[Patrick]

The question is how does the supply of people in Detroit get replenished,

Offer free land?

[Hermod]

Heck, most of Detroit doesn't even qualify. It is more like suburban layout with urban problems. So if my choices of physical layout are the same, why choose the place with problems? Why not live in Royal Oak where I can safely live out my delusion of urbanity?

This is exactly the problem. Detroit will never win residents so long as we have all the typical urban problems without an urban neighborhood layout. We need to expand and build up new authenticaly urban neighborhoods based around mass transit and diversity of housing and transportation options, and building up existing historic neighborhoods. Not possible in the burbs, so they can't compete. Play on our strengths-- urbanity and diversity, not weaknesses-- suburban layout/urban problems.

You need a lot of people with gainful jobs to move in and overwhelm the problems with a high density of people, jobs, dwellings, and stores. The problem is that Detroit's problems are so embedded that people, developers, employers, and retailers will not move in.

Detroit has to solve its problems then people might want to begin to consider the possibility of maybe moving into the city someday if they really feel like it.