Legalize drugs, yes or no?

[maxx]

As of yesterday there were one thousand six hundred thirty nine inmates incarcerated in the OCJ. Of those criminals, two hundred sixty two are in lock-up for marijuana/narcotics/drug possession. Of those criminals, three hundred forty eight are in kahootz for OUI. Wayne county numbers are not so easily obtained. I know ya'll like hard numbers and facts, so there ya go.

Edit: Make that 16 incarcerated for OUI. Can't even read my own chicken scratch anymore.

So about 16% are in the OCJ for possession. And how many of those had small amounts of any illegal substance?

[Blarf]

But alcohol is not as addictive as heroin, cocaine or meth. Is there any safe amount of those drugs that will not lead to addiction?

Yeah. Just because you occasionally party down with your substance of choice doesn't mean you're automatically going to become addicted.

I'm also a big supporter of natural selection. Let those who want it bad enough kill themselves. They are going to do it whether it's legal or not.

[Detroitnerd]

Here's a thoughtful piece from CounterPunch today:

http://www.counterpunch.com/flanders09282010.html

Is the Drug War a Class War?

By LAURA FLANDERS

The war on drugs. We keep calling it that, it seems, because we like wars on abstract concepts. Like the war on terror, the war on drugs racks up one hell of a body count, and its victims are mostly innocent civilians with no more love for the corrupt regimes that rule them than we have.

Molly Molloy, who runs Frontera List, which focuses on border-related news and specifically Ciudad Juarez, and Charles Bowden, author of a new book on Ciudad Juarez, Murder City: Ciudad Juarez and the Global Economy's New Killing Fields both call it not a war on drugs but a war on the poor.

Bowden said in an interview with me in Marfa last week, "If you put people in a city where the police are not totally corrupted, where they’re secure in their property, where they can get a job that pays a decent wage, they don’t kill each other.”
But the work that NAFTA started in Mexico the drug wars have sped up. There are no jobs that pay a living wage in Juarez, and its proximity to the border makes it valuable turf for all sorts of illicit activity, by all sorts of forces, from gangs, to cops, to big bosses, to the Mexican Army itself.
Politicians here like to talk about border security, but they refuse to acknowledge the demands of human security: living wages, a society of laws, schools, housing, healthcare. Instead of modeling lawfulness, our government's response is more lawlessness-- more arms to more armies, more privilege to the very rich and drug laws -- as well as immigration laws that make no sense.

[Django]

I just dont get it. Ive repeatedly asked thoes who favor the war on drugs to explain why they favor locking ppl up for drug crimes, possession, distributuion, whatever. They all have plenty to say but wont go so far as to support the basic fundamentals of the currrent drug war, that being locking ppl up is the answer,

Pussies.

[jcole]

But alcohol is not as addictive as heroin, cocaine or meth. Is there any safe amount of those drugs that will not lead to addiction?

Alcohol is just as addictive as the other drugs you mention. Why do you think AA is such a going concern? Also, you can die more easily when withdrawing from alcohol than you can when withdrawing from heroin.

[Blarf]

People are dying from drug overdoses because they are drug addicts, and drug users. It's not the responsibility of the state to regulate dosage, for fuck's sake.

Highschool and college kids are dying from binge drinking and alcohol poisoning.
Who's responsibility should it be to regulate dosage?

Do you think alcohol should be deemed illegal?

Would you vote to criminalize the use of alcohol? Why or why not?

[Stosh]

Highschool and college kids are dying from binge drinking and alcohol poisoning.
Who's responsibility should it be to regulate dosage?

Do you think alcohol should be deemed illegal?

Would you vote to criminalize the use of alcohol? Why or why not?

It's not the government's responsibility, like I said. Why encourage more deaths?

Alcohol doesn't cause death by overdose very often. Check the stats.

[Stosh]

I just dont get it. Ive repeatedly asked thoes who favor the war on drugs to explain why they favor locking ppl up for drug crimes, possession, distributuion, whatever. They all have plenty to say but wont go so far as to support the basic fundamentals of the currrent drug war, that being locking ppl up is the answer,

Pussies.

Name caller. I don't support ALL of the drug war. I think you should specify what you are talking about before you go around calling names, don't you think?

Please try and stay on track of what you are pissing on about here. My problem is Heroin, Cocaine, PCP, Meth, etc. Marijuana, no. You can decriminilize that all day long and it would not hurt my feelings.

[Blarf]

Alcohol doesn't cause death by overdose very often. Check the stats.

........ummmmm.

Apparently you're not aware that alcohol kills more people every year than all other illegal drugs combined.

http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm

[maxx]

........ummmmm.

Apparently you're not aware that alcohol kills more people every year than all other illegal drugs combined.

http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm

Alcohol alone? Or alcohol along with driving, other drugs, risky behaviors?

[jcole]

........ummmmm.

Apparently you're not aware that alcohol kills more people every year than all other illegal drugs combined.

http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm

He said death by overdose. The stats on the link you posted don't differentiate between overdose, withdrawals, accident or disease.

[Stosh]

........ummmmm.

Apparently you're not aware that alcohol kills more people every year than all other illegal drugs combined.

http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm

Apparently you aren't paying attention either.
If you just look at deaths from alcohol poisoning, you get this fact, on multiple sites:

It is estimated that over 50,000 cases of alcohol poisoning are reported each year. According to alcoholism poisoning statistics, over 1 in 1000 cases of alcohol poisoning result in death. However, this statistic is not current, so it is not known for sure how many deaths and cases of alcohol poisoning take place. The lack of up to date and accurate alcohol poisoning statistics is very alarming, since if people were aware of how many deaths and alcohol poisoning cases there were each year, as well as the effects of alcohol poisoning, it could help in alcohol abuse prevention plan

http://talkrehab.org/alcohol-poisoni...ics-and-facts/

Now that stat implies that out of the 50000 "alcohol poisoning" cases is that 1 in 1000 die. So that's 50 deaths a year. "Alcohol related" deaths are inflated by auto crashes, fights, accidents, and all sorts of other factors.

If you go by sheer toxicity, the body usually has a defense against the alcohol poisoning, it's called vomiting. You can't do that with coke or heroin. Just in one COUNTY in Oregon, the stats below compared to a year nationally above:

From http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/jul2000/her-j24.shtml

According to the studies, overdose deaths have substantially increased over the past five years. In Multnomah County, Oregon's most populous county, the number of heroin overdose deaths climbed from 46 in 1993 to 111 in 1999, an increase of 141 percent. In King County, deaths climbed by 134 percent. Most overdose deaths were among men [[more than 80 percent) and the ethnic composition of the deceased reflected the overall population—overwhelmingly white.

[maxx]

Detroitnerd: Prison is a fuck of a lot more expensive than rehab. If you're willing to examine the massive amount of money we spend to imprison, jail, prosecute and punish drug users, you'll realize that rehab costs are a drop in the bucket.

So you don't envision any due process required before putting people into rehab involuntarily? Or are we supposed to just wait until drug users decide they need rehab? I can see rehab as an alternative to prison offered to users but that won't eliminate the court procedures. And then on top of that, rehab requires certified personnel to oversee the rehab. Some prisons offer drug counseling programs now. Funding appears to be the chief obstacle.

Although it could also be wrapped into a national health care system, which would control costs even more.

Wouldn't a national health system be nice? And do you foresee that happening soon?

[Django]

Name caller. I don't support ALL of the drug war. I think you should specify what you are talking about before you go around calling names, don't you think?

Please try and stay on track of what you are pissing on about here. My problem is Heroin, Cocaine, PCP, Meth, etc. Marijuana, no. You can decriminilize that all day long and it would not hurt my feelings.

Okay, So you believe we should lock up all users of heroin, cocaine, pcp, and meth. Thats what you believe should be the goal of this drug war? This is what Ive been asking from the start. So your all in favor of the decrim of pot, whoop de fucking do, hell its pretty much legal already. If you haven't noticed this is about the harder more harmful drugs, not a bag of grass.

Let me ask you again and Ill be as clear as possible. Do you believe all users of heroin, pcp, cocaine, and meth should be sent to prison?

[Django]

[QUOTE=maxx;186789]So you don't envision any due process required before putting people into rehab involuntarily? Or are we supposed to just wait until drug users decide they need rehab? I can see rehab as an alternative to prison offered to users but that won't eliminate the court procedures. And then on top of that, rehab requires certified personnel to oversee the rehab. Some prisons offer drug counseling programs now. Funding appears to be the chief obstacle.

Why would there be court costs? if drugs were legal or decrimed people could decide for themselves what they ingest or inject. Forcing ppl into treatment is a loser, and again, why would you have to if the drugs are legal? Treatment on demand should be available for all who need it instead of prison for those with a disease such as addiction. Its a no brainer that prison is much more expensive than treatment.


I just dont understand how anyone could think that by imprisoning someone in a cage it will cure them of a disease.

[Stosh]

Okay, So you believe we should lock up all users of heroin, cocaine, pcp, and meth. Thats what you believe should be the goal of this drug war? This is what Ive been asking from the start. So your all in favor of the decrim of pot, whoop de fucking do, hell its pretty much legal already. If you haven't noticed this is about the harder more harmful drugs, not a bag of grass.

Let me ask you again and Ill be as clear as possible. Do you believe all users of heroin, pcp, cocaine, and meth should be sent to prison?

Yes, just for the simple fact that they by the general use of the drug, are:
A)Simpleminded as hell for actually starting down that road to addiction, and

B) A clear and present danger to society at large, unless they can pay for it. Otherwise, they will be committiing crimes to pay for their addiction. So either way, yes, jail, because I don't feel the need to pay for someone else's stupidity by mollycoddling the poor idiot that CHOOSES that path of destruction on his own. Let him do hard time, and whatever comes of that.

[eriedearie]

I have read most of the replies to Django's question here and do not recall seeing anything like what I'm about to say...IMO legalize the hell out of pot and tax the shit out of it.

Use that tax money to create a learning system for our children. A system where they will be given all the necessary knowledge to make a decision as to whether or not they want to be a junkie when they grow up. Expose them to a "Scared Straight" sort of program all through their school years. Take them on field trips to treatment centers where the druggies are struggling to kick their awful habit. Let them see someone coming off a high, etc. Teach them the effects of these mind altering menaces to society.

We have had sex education classes in the schools for years. Sex ain't going away. Neither are the illegal hard drugs. No matter how much we fight it - the drugs are here and will continue to stay here. We need to create a future society that knows how harmful and damaging those drugs are. Scare them so they won't use drugs - therefore, drying up the market.

Just my two cents worth.

[Blarf]

Apparently you aren't paying attention either.
If you just look at deaths from alcohol poisoning, you get this fact, on multiple sites:

http://talkrehab.org/alcohol-poisoni...ics-and-facts/

Now that stat implies that out of the 50000 "alcohol poisoning" cases is that 1 in 1000 die. So that's 50 deaths a year. "Alcohol related" deaths are inflated by auto crashes, fights, accidents, and all sorts of other factors.

If you go by sheer toxicity, the body usually has a defense against the alcohol poisoning, it's called vomiting. You can't do that with coke or heroin. Just in one COUNTY in Oregon, the stats below compared to a year nationally above:

From http://www.wsws.org/articles/2000/jul2000/her-j24.shtml

When looking up that information, I did misread that, my mistake. I see they didn't break down the exact cause of death regarding alcohol use.

However I don't see the point of the argument. I don't really understand why someone using a drug that has a high overdose rate should be considered a criminal, while someone else who uses another arguably equally dangerous drug with a high death rate isn't.

[Django]

Now thats a way to think My Dearie.

Okay Stosh, was that so hard? Geeze, it took like 141 replies before figuring out you want all cocaine and heroin users jailed. At least that would have taken care of W. Bush, oh wait, he could afford it. You mind as well tell us for how long they should be jailed, or should it just be for life? I suppose the simpleminded people would be best imprisoned to make way for the likes of you, unless that simpleminded person is rich of course, then its okay. Am I reading you right?

Im going to try and summarize this.
The rich can do drugs and get away with it, they are probably the ones importing and dumping the drugs upon the simpleminded in the areas where simpleminded ppl use drugs the most which is in the hood. So the poor and simpleminded who are scrambling for any kind of life better than they have pick up on selling drugs to more simpleminded ppl until the drug war is finally won and all the poor simpleminded are in jail.
Did I get that right?

Okay, so Im being kind of a dick, but come on Stosh. You must have someone in your family who has an addiction.I dont know anyone who doesnt have at least one in the family. You really think putting them in prison is the start to solving the drug problem.
What I really want to get across is that addiction is a disease. Its a health issue and should be treated as such. The drug problem is not something thats going to be solved in our lifetime most likely so my opinion is it should be about harm reduction. Drugs in actuality are not that expensive. You could rationalize it by encouraging users to use all they want so they will die off faster. That would be a more productive approach than trying to jail every user.
Many addicts lead very normal lives, they work, dont steal, they have families that need them but they made a bad choice at one time in their life and pay for it. I know here in Detroit we see the worst of it and its frustrating and being Detroiters it gives us a skewed view, I mean come on, were Detroit, most of the country is not like us.

I dont want to see anybody pick up a needle or a pipe, but I also dont want them to see them go to jail where thay cant at least try and keep it together. Ive known a lot of users in my life and for the most part and I mean 97%, they were not thieves, which seems to be your main concern. They had their hustles but for the most part were just getting by and causing no major damage.


I hope that made sense, Im a little drunk. At least its not the 1920s.

[Blarf]

I hope that made sense, Im a little drunk. At least its not the 1920s.

That's a good thing, otherwise you'd be a criminal because you would be breaking the law!

[Stosh]

Now thats a way to think My Dearie.

Okay Stosh, was that so hard? Geeze, it took like 141 replies before figuring out you want all cocaine and heroin users jailed. At least that would have taken care of W. Bush, oh wait, he could afford it. You mind as well tell us for how long they should be jailed, or should it just be for life? I suppose the simpleminded people would be best imprisoned to make way for the likes of you, unless that simpleminded person is rich of course, then its okay. Am I reading you right?

Yes. It's all about personal choices, and anyone that thinks that addiction is a great choice in life deserves whatever he or she gets in life, including jail. People like you always say that drug use is a victimless crime. Well, commiting crimes to obtain the drugs sure includes some victims, doesn't it? If the addict / fool that HAS the money to buy drugs can do so without victimizing others, that's great too. I think drug use should be at least 90 days in jail. Why 90? Because that's what your typical rehab stay is. And DJ, you know as well as I do that most addicts do NOT want to be rehabilitated.

Im going to try and summarize this.
The rich can do drugs and get away with it, they are probably the ones importing and dumping the drugs upon the simpleminded in the areas where simpleminded ppl use drugs the most which is in the hood. So the poor and simpleminded who are scrambling for any kind of life better than they have pick up on selling drugs to more simpleminded ppl until the drug war is finally won and all the poor simpleminded are in jail.
Did I get that right?

Other than the fact that you are now repeating yourself, pretty much right. Thanks for playing.

Okay, so Im being kind of a dick, but come on Stosh. You must have someone in your family who has an addiction.I dont know anyone who doesnt have at least one in the family. You really think putting them in prison is the start to solving the drug problem

Of course I do. But that whole scenario is the "best case". Putting someone in jail implies that there has been an event where addict has had some interaction, whatever it is, with the court system. Addicts that have people that care about them will have a better chance than most to have an intervention that may or may not result in rehab. Of course, your simplistic question is just spring loaded to reinforce your belief system. I mean, come on. You should know that there comes a point that the fmily of an addict, sometimes, just says fuck it, and then leaves the idiot to his own devices. THOSE people end up in prison.

What I really want to get across is that addiction is a disease. Its a health issue and should be treated as such. The drug problem is not something thats going to be solved in our lifetime most likely so my opinion is it should be about harm reduction. Drugs in actuality are not that expensive. You could rationalize it by encouraging users to use all they want so they will die off faster. That would be a more productive approach than trying to jail every user.

Wow. Now you want them to die off? These are people, aren't they? Drugs aren't expensive? Talk about unreality.

Many addicts lead very normal lives, they work, dont steal, they have families that need them but they made a bad choice at one time in their life and pay for it. I know here in Detroit we see the worst of it and its frustrating and being Detroiters it gives us a skewed view, I mean come on, were Detroit, most of the country is not like us.

Yeah, right. Define normal for me please. Many addicts live normal lives? Ha.

Lets take the average heroin user. He's plopping cash into his veins or in his lungs that could be used for feeding and clothing his family, or living somewhere that is safer than where they live, but no, they have to get their fix. Sounds normal to me? NOT. And I'm not gonna get into that "Detroit is different" excuse either. That's bullshit as well, and you know it.

I dont want to see anybody pick up a needle or a pipe, but I also dont want them to see them go to jail where thay cant at least try and keep it together. Ive known a lot of users in my life and for the most part and I mean 97%, they were not thieves, which seems to be your main concern. They had their hustles but for the most part were just getting by and causing no major damage.

Keeping it together is the operative word in this paragraph. If they weren't addicted, this would be a whole lot less of a problem. You've know a lot of users that didn't thieve? At least not to your knowledge,anyway. You can't follow them around 24/7. Just because they seem respectable and decent people doesn't mean that they are. Believe me, I know how scheming and resourceful addicts are. What you call hustles, are just a part of the whole persona. The 3 percent you know that you KNOW are thieves, are just the ones that are stupid enough to show their true activity to you.

I hope that made sense, Im a little drunk. At least its not the 1920s.

That's not all right either, but that's your problem. But we aren't discussing alcohol addiction either.

[Ravine]

Stosh, this phrase:

"...anyone that thinks that addiction is a great choice in life..."

...doesn't work very well, at least in my view, and-- fairly or unfairly-- causes me to be unable to take the rest of your post as seriously as I might prefer to take it.
People start using for a bunch of different reasons. I don't believe that any narcotic users, or alcoholics, choose addiction. Addiction is what happens after one has made a previous choice or series of choices.
That may sound like hair-splitting [[and I have no way of knowing exactly how you meant it,) but I think it is an important distinction.
I don't think there are any addicts walking around thinking, "Dang, I thought being an addict would be OK, but this sucks."

[mjs]

If people want to get drugs, legal or not, they get them. If cocaine and heroin were legalized tomorrow it wouldn't suddenly result in a flood of new users. There is simply no hard evidence for this.

. . .

It's so interesting to me how some people forget their own history. Prohibition did nothing but turn the mafia into the biggest and richest criminal organization on earth. . . . In fact it made it trendy to drink because it was illegal and if anything prohibition increased the amount of people who drank. People love doing things that they aren't supposed to be doing.

Then you don't know the history of the drug cartel's or what lead up to Reagan's drug war. In the early 80's, cocaine was considered a recreational drug for the wealthy so enforcement became a pretty low priority, especially street level enforcement. As a result, cocaine use rapidly skyrocketed and the violence began as the money involved became greater and greater.

Here's some history questions for you. Did the mafia disappear once alcohol became legal? Did mafia violence disappear? What would keep the drug dealer's from making up the lost revenue by expanding their operations in gambling, prostitution, or strong arming local merchant's? Why wouldn't they fight turf wars over those markets?

They can just as easily score drugs in jail as they can on the street anyway. It's totally pointless, like shoveling water.

Same can be said for murder and rape and fraud. Legalize that as well? Should we give up on fixing anything that won't give us a clear cut victory or should we continue to do what we can to make things better then they otherwise would be? There are persausive arguments for legalizing drugs, but the "holding your principles has a price" argument is far from being one of them.

The drug war has made for a lucrative trade in our streets all while using violence to control it. Kids are prone to have drugs in their hands because they cn make a better living selling them than they can working at McDs or Burger Kang.

I'm familiar with the argument that crime follows drug use, but I dont buy it. The price of drugs is that because its illegal. The markup of marijuana cocaine heroin and the rest is astronomical all because its illegal. AFOAF bought some illegal drugs in Asia about 10 years ago and paid $200 for 20 grams and when he got them home to Seattle he found that they were worth $1000 a gram or $20,000.

. . .

I know drug addicts, and the main problem they all say is the fact that they are illegal. If it wasn't for the expense of overpriced drugs many of them could lead more normal lives.

Lots of responsible society questions being glossed over here to make a complicated decision sound cut and dry. Are proponents of legalized drugs saying they don't think the manufacture and sale should be controlled and regulated in any form? Do they think it was wrong to ban Phen Phen and have lawsuits over Paxil and against tobacco manufacturers? Should all adulterants should be permitted? Can the government audit or shut down stores selling to minors? Should explosive and toxic manufacturing facilities have to meet OSHA and EPA regulations and can they exist in your neighborhood? Would it be unjust to raise drug taxes to the point that they cover the government's rehab programs? Shouldn't drug bosses have to start paying overtime and payroll taxes? Should drug dealers be made immune from lawsuits so addicts don't have to steal as frequently for their fixes? All these regulations, taxes, and liabilities cost money. Tell me again about these low prices. Will it be lower than the prescription drugs currently on the market? Should prescription plans be required to cover it?

[ggores]

All the hard-core addicts I have ever known have said that being "addicted" is horrendous. Now, I put quotes around that word "addicted" because the "addict" is just as "addicted" to a drug [[or a variety of drugs, thank you Benadryl!)as a person who is "addicted" to food. And for that matter, I am "addicted" to food. Why, my addiction is SO bad that last night I actually had my yearly dose of White Castle's. Yes, once, twice a year at the most will I ever endure the ramifications of them sliders. But last night the bug got me, and got me good. I was, in few words, "outta my mind".

But here is something to consider, methinks. Biggest difference between alcohol and drugs, to me, is that, well, you can only drink so much. Now I know people do continue to go on and on and on, even to the point of calling their own ambulance. Gotta tell ya, a bona-fide .57 or .63 b.a.c is really nuts. Say it can't be done? Better think twice. Another thing is that drugs, generally speaking, have no taste and are extremely hard to gauge effect versus consumption, very hard to measure unless you are a real pro. And yes, there are "real pro's" out there, managing your finances, fixing your furnace... teaching your children at school and preaching from the pulpits. Growing up, we would have some of the most hilarious arguments amongst family and friends regarding legalizing pot. One day, heh, my Dad would get so steamed during these arguments, he finally broke it down to me. "I never seen anyone get shot over a beer." Well, he had a good point because he certainly seen lots of, ummmmm, bad things happen because of drugs.

I am not so sure about legalizing so-called "street drugs", but I think it would be very honest of American society to recognize that that War On Drugs really is a buncha bullshit. Everytime I see on the news the cache of coke and marijuana the DPD have confiscated, I say to myself "WTF? That's NOTHING!" I mean come on... 300 pounds of weed? Shit, try 40 tonnes. Now THAT would be impressive, but you will never see it and there are reasons WHY you will never see it.

I could branch off and go on and on, but I'll cut it there 'cause I gotta go and do something. Just remember kids; speed kills. Or does it? Hm.

Oh, by the way, I am totally against legalizing marijuana because the system, as it works now, is very efficient. The Gov probably would tax the crap out of it and deliver a mediocre product - all at the same time!

[maxx]

Django:Many addicts lead very normal lives, they work, dont steal.

We have the British and Swiss experiences with legalized drugs that said that crime increased a great deal. That's why they have different systems now.

And what drugs are these addicts with normal lives on?