Legalize drugs, yes or no?

[maxx]

blackmath: Drug dealers don't ask for I.D. Thats how kids can get drugs now, Maxx. With legalization or decriminalization of drugs, the government could regulate it, just as they do with other vices that are okay with them, gambling, alcohol, cigarettes.

Pills are regulated now and kids can buy them on the street too. There is also the issue of new drugs like meth that people make from OTC drugs.

The best way to stop kids who are on the fence about doing drugs or not is to make them not cool and make them boring.

I think the issue of some kids' idea that flouting the law is cool should be addressed in school. Also the issue of getting high as recreation. Most of the information kids get is wrong. They have no respect or knowledge about their brains. A lot of the adults around them drink alcohol regularly along with who-knows-what other drugs which sets up horrible role models for children.

Again this UK report on drug use has interesting information.
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...QLO9N6DXOvQ5uQ
On p.81 it says that popular fashion and culture seems to play a role in the sort of drugs that are used in any time frame. For instance they mention the upturn of mj use between 1992 to 1998 among 18 year olds in most parts of the western world no matter whether the policy was tougher [[U.S.), more tolerant [[Australia), or didn't change as in most countries.

[maxx]

Ehh. I know plenty of regular coke users who hold down pretty good jobs. One of the reasons they can afford the stuff is because they make good money. If you use the drug responsibly, than there shouldn't be a problem.

And what do you mean by using cocaine responsibly? Using a powerful drug like this merely for recreation is changing the chemistry of your brain just to get a high. As other drug addicts admit, the user never really stops wanting the drug. I know someone who quit smoking 15 years ago and still felt the desire for it.

http://www.sacsconsulting.com/book/chapter8p2.htm
"[Cocaine]Causes shaking, muscle twitches, seizures, severe anxiety, compulsive repetition of movements. Also paranoia, psychosis, heart-related effects, nausea and vomiting. Changes in breathing, increase in body temperature, bloody nose, cold sweat, dramatic mood swings. Hallucinations, sensation of insects crawling under skin [["coke bugs") and other continuing psychotic effects. Eating disorders such as loss of appetite, sleeping disorders such as insomnia, impaired sexual performance, destruction of nose tissue, ongoing respiratory problems, needle infections such as endocarditis, hepatitis and AIDS. Death from overdose is common, as are suicide, homicide, and fatal accidents while under the influence. Snorting can be fatal in itself. Breathing is often stopped when combined doses of cocaine and heroin are taken. Lethal doses vary by individual and are not predictable. Death by cardiac arrest or respiratory failure can occur at any age. Death may occur with first time use or unexpectedly thereafter. Mixing cocaine or crack with alcohol increases the risk of sudden death. Harm to health and development of infants born to women who use cocaine while pregnant. "

The whole issue of the effect on developing fetuses is something not often mentioned. And if drug users have no problems doing their jobs, why do employers test for drugs? Employers are interested in getting the most productivity out of their employees. They even hire illegal aliens who can barely speak English, so they're obviously not interested in doing the police's job.

[Blarf]

And what do you mean by using cocaine responsibly? Using a powerful drug like this merely for recreation is changing the chemistry of your brain just to get a high. As other drug addicts admit, the user never really stops wanting the drug. I know someone who quit smoking 15 years ago and still felt the desire for it.

You seriously don't understand the concept of using a drug responsibly?

Alcohol too is a powerful drug, using merely for recreation changes the chemistry of your brain and alters one's behavior and decision making processes. Are you going to say that EVERYONE who enjoys drinking, even a few drinks, is acting irresponsibly?

Despite what you think, not everyone who uses cocaine is a sniffing twitching fiend doing whatever they can for their next fix. You're accusing every user of being an addict. There us a huge difference between use of a drug, and abuse of a drug.

[maxx]

You still haven't answered my question. What is the responsible use of cocaine?

[Blarf]

You still haven't answered my question. What is the responsible use of cocaine?

The same as with alcohol. Use in moderation, not driving under the influence, not going to work under the influence, not providing it to minors, etc.

[Jimaz]

You still haven't answered my question. What is the responsible use of cocaine?

Dental anesthetic?

[Django]

I think Maxx is fucking with us, Its a bit hard to believe anyone could be so clueless. I apologize to you Maxx if you are a very old senior citizen and just have no concept of how drugs work [[which it seems). This runaround trying to explain to you the basics though seems pointless, Maxx, you seem to be the only one who cant grasp the concept of harm reduction. Anyone can spit out a thousand different reasons why drugs are bad and everyones going tit for tat trying to explain the thousands of different ways the drug war is worse. Take a step back Maxx, theres a whole forest there right in front of you.

Please say your fuckin with us.

[Stosh]

I think Maxx is fucking with us, Its a bit hard to believe anyone could be so clueless. I apologize to you Maxx if you are a very old senior citizen and just have no concept of how drugs work [[which it seems). This runaround trying to explain to you the basics though seems pointless, Maxx, you seem to be the only one who cant grasp the concept of harm reduction. Anyone can spit out a thousand different reasons why drugs are bad and everyones going tit for tat trying to explain the thousands of different ways the drug war is worse. Take a step back Maxx, theres a whole forest there right in front of you.

Please say your fuckin with us.

Addictive drugs can't be used responsibly. Sooner or later one reaches a tipping point, and off to the races you go. What manner of harm reduction are you talking about?

Edit: I looked it up. That decriminalized the use, all right, but creates a whole lot more addicts. Once you do this, the state would be sued for deaths?

[Django]

Then we shold be jailing ppl for using smokes and beer Stosh.

Harm reduction, when drugs being illegal causes more harm than them being legal.

What stats are you looking at saying use will go up if decrimed? Portugal seems to be doing okay.

[maxx]

I think Maxx is fucking with us, Its a bit hard to believe anyone could be so clueless. I apologize to you Maxx if you are a very old senior citizen and just have no concept of how drugs work [[which it seems). This runaround trying to explain to you the basics though seems pointless, Maxx, you seem to be the only one who cant grasp the concept of harm reduction. Anyone can spit out a thousand different reasons why drugs are bad and everyones going tit for tat trying to explain the thousands of different ways the drug war is worse. Take a step back Maxx, theres a whole forest there right in front of you.

Please say your fuckin with us.

I'm asking honest questions and taking what information I can find on hard drugs since I don't have personal experience. The people who are for decriminalization of all drugs seem to just want a simple answer to a very complex problem. Cocaine is not mj. But there are different levels of mj depending on the amount of THC. No one has presented any information to suggest that decriminalizing all drugs will cause fewer police problems than what we have right now. All I hear is the usual adolescent arguments that people will always get drugs if they want to and no one should tell me what I can do to my body.

[Django]

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...riminalization

Check it out Stosh and Maxx.

[maxx]

Then we shold be jailing ppl for using smokes and beer Stosh.

Why? Because there is no difference between cigarrettes and alcohol and cocaine and heroin?

Harm reduction, when drugs being illegal causes more harm than them being legal.

Which drugs? Mj or crack? Beer or meth?

[Django]

And this from the CATO Institute http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10080

Maxx, we all know the diff of beer and cocaine, or pot and meth. Drugs are bad, no shit. I dont believe in locking ppl up for using or selling them period. Jesus think about it before you post. I have no problem debating a solid argument but yours are from goddamn 1987. Sorry if im being a dick but jimminy crickets.

[Django]

And this http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/gl...03/14/portugal

[Django]

I think I just convinced myself to move to Portugal.

Thanks Gnome.

[Blarf]

No one has presented any information to suggest that decriminalizing all drugs will cause fewer police problems than what we have right now. All I hear is the usual adolescent arguments that people will always get drugs if they want to and no one should tell me what I can do to my body.

No one has presented any information to suggest that decriminalizing all drugs will cause more police problems than what we have right now. So it goes both ways.

And if believing that people should have the right to put whatever they want into their own bodies is adolescent, than I guess I'm immature. However, I refuse to believe you're cool with government and law telling you how to live your life. Whatever.

[Stosh]

No one has presented any information to suggest that decriminalizing all drugs will cause more police problems than what we have right now. So it goes both ways.

And if believing that people should have the right to put whatever they want into their own bodies is adolescent, than I guess I'm immature. However, I refuse to believe you're cool with government and law telling you how to live your life. Whatever.

I think the whole no harm /no foul call within the argument is just total bullshit. I have plenty of dead friends that died from drugging. Luckily I stopped when I did, otherwise I'd probably be another statistic. You all don't have a clue as to what you are proposing. I suppose that creating new addicts will make you feel better about yourself?

[Blarf]

I think the whole no harm /no foul call within the argument is just total bullshit. I have plenty of dead friends that died from drugging. Luckily I stopped when I did, otherwise I'd probably be another statistic. You all don't have a clue as to what you are proposing. I suppose that creating new addicts will make you feel better about yourself?

How do you "create new addicts"?
Addicts become addicts because of their own decisions.

You keep saying decriminalizing drugs is going to create more addicts, yet don't have any research to back that up.

[Stosh]

How do you "create new addicts"?
Addicts become addicts because of their own decisions.

You keep saying decriminalizing drugs is going to create more addicts, yet don't have any research to back that up.

There are plenty of people that actually OBEY laws. And refrain from doing things that are against the law. Take away that moral prohibition and what do you get? More people using, more people getting hooked.

Cocaine, Heroin, Crack, Meth. All addictive as hell. So is booze and cigarettes too. Which is why I avoid ALL of them like the plague. Just because it's legal does not make it right.

But I choose not to use heroin because it will kill you directly. Same with coke and crack and meth. You can drink alcohol and not run the risk of sudden death. Same with cigarettes.

[maxx]

Some interesting info from Australia.
http://www.drugpolicy.org/global/dru.../australianew/

They do make a distinction between consuming and dealing as is mentioned in the last paragraph before the subsection on Mj.
"...Reform of the marijuana laws in South Australia came with the introduction of the Controlled Substances Act Amendment Act, 1986. Under the Marijuana Expiation Notice [[CEN) scheme adults coming to the attention of police for “simple marijuana offences” could be issued with an expiation notice. Offenders were able to avoid prosecution by paying the specified fine within 60 days of the issue of the notice. Failure to pay the specified fees within 60 days could lead to prosecution in court, and the possibility of a conviction being recorded. Underlying the CEN scheme is the rationale that a clear distinction should be made between private users of marijuana and those who are involved in dealing, producing or trafficking in marijuana. .."

And here are the results. I found the graph with the stats from 1996 through 2008 interesting.
"...The number of accidental deaths due to opioids decreased dramatically in 2001, coinciding with a decrease in heroin availability across Australia, and has remained relatively low since then..."
http://www.dassa.sa.gov.au/site/page.cfm?u=204

[maxx]

I think the whole no harm /no foul call within the argument is just total bullshit.

In the drug policies I have read harm reduction means giving out clean needles.

Here's the experience with drug legalization of Britain as well as other countries .
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/...ths/myths4.htm

[Big Dog]

I also think the war on drugs is a very costly failure, and it should be a medical issue, not a crime issue. Perhaps, all drugs should be decriminalized.

[Django]

Maxx, I suggest you do a little research on the Schaffer org and get straight what they really intend to do.That article clearly does not jive with their objectives.It doesnt even say who wrote it, sound as if it just wound up on their bulliten board. Their stats are way off from the things Ive read over the many years Ive followed this debate. Did you dare to look at my links?

Stosh, so we should continue to store anyone who uses drugs in prison? Thats your answer to the drug problem? BULLSHIT

[Stosh]

Maxx, I suggest you do a little research on the Schaffer org and get straight what they really intend to do.That article clearly does not jive with their objectives.It doesnt even say who wrote it, sound as if it just wound up on their bulliten board. Their stats are way off from the things Ive read over the many years Ive followed this debate. Did you dare to look at my links?

Stosh, so we should continue to store anyone who uses drugs in prison? Thats your answer to the drug problem? BULLSHIT

Bullshit is, precisely, what I am reading here as well. Just because something kind of cramps your style doesn't make it a bad thing. And putting it in bold letters doesn't impress me much. Believe me I've had loads of experience in the matter, and if not for some prudent decisions I probably would be a whole different person, or dead.

So really, your attitude kind of makes me sad. You shouldn't be defending your lifestyle, if that's what it's all about. Instead, a rational decision on making a difference in your life in a positive direction would be helpful. Just a thought.

[Django]

So Stosh, you advocate putting people in jail if they use drugs? Oops, let me correct myself, drugs you deem dangerous.

This is not about me Stosh or whatever lifestyle you perceive I live, this is about almost one million people serving time in prison for so called drug crimes. The drug war is a failure, you can go on hoping its going to accomplish something and cry about how you almost died because of the choices you made or you can get with the program and realize that you cannot stop addiction but only work with it. You cannot stop the flow of drugs but you could regulate it. You could efficiently tax the evil to help those that want help. Im glad you stopped your drugging ways, we all know a few who have fallen to its hell. I argue that the drugs could be regulated so that overdoses are unheard of. Im betting your friends died of overdoses or HIV, both preventable if the drugs were regulated and clean needles were available. Im bettin ten bucks I know more ppl that have died from legal booze than so called illegal drugs that have killed your friends.

Cramps my style, have we met? do you know me? Obviously not. If my attitude makes you sad well then Im really sorry about that misconception you have.

You want to have a legal beer or a smoke let me know, IM me, Im down, then you can get to know me, your buyin though.

Let me ask you again, Do you advocate putting people in jail if they use drugs? Please, answer my question.