Several homes fully-engulfed in flames on Detroit's east side

[tallboy66]

"WHAT! NOT TRUE" I didn't write my comments as a fact. I wrote it as a argument. Therefore my comment is not absolute.


"failure to redevelop the city as they keep pushing out to develop vacant land. Pontiac township was pastures and now it's Auburn Hills.
Just think if the Chrysler HQ had been built on far East Jefferson and had the development like is in A.H.?"

That's not the real problem. There's more to Detroit's urban problem than just the latter, developing land at the boondocks.

I beg to differ. The lack of tax base and jobs as well as the difference between Detroit and Oakland county is literally like black and white!
If they had built in the city the things they built in northern O.C. Detroit would be on it's way to being on par with Chicago, Toronto or at least a city that is full of un-mowed fields. Maybe Grosse Pointe could have a Pheasant Hunt for charity?

[tallboy66]

If it's needed Firefighters have the ability to draft water from bodies of water straight to the pumper if the pressure is bad or there are no hydrants in the area. I would doubt there's any in the area though. Maybe even use a ditch.
When my brother was on the Jasper FD in Alberta, they were having a problem with a wild fire....oddly not near any water, the tank in the pumper went dry, and they started drafting from peoples swimming pools!

Well if the fires were on the upper Eastside/Westside hat makes it 7 MILES or so from the Detroit river/Lake st. Clair not really logistical.

[Danny]

I beg to differ. The lack of tax base and jobs as well as the difference between Detroit and Oakland county is literally like black and white!
If they had built in the city the things they built in northern O.C. Detroit would be on it's way to being on par with Chicago, Toronto or at least a city that is full of un-mowed fields. Maybe Grosse Pointe could have a Pheasant Hunt for charity?

Yes, but there is more than just one problem.

[Magnatomicflux]

Well if the fires were on the upper Eastside/Westside hat makes it 7 MILES or so from the Detroit river/Lake st. Clair not really logistical.

Wasn't suggesting it as a course of action they should have taken. If you only read the first sentence then yeah, good point.

[mauser]

video of the fires and aftermath:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMEatx0jyNk

[lizaanne]

video of the fires and aftermath:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMEatx0jyNk

Wow. Just speechless.

[ja!mz]

DTE has cut back staff to save money, doesn't seem like they do any preventive maintenence at all anymore. Did you notice now when 1 storm rolls through 1 county now, it effects 30K plus people ? Your power is out 3-4 days from 1 storm now, it's totally unacceptable, if this was SOP in a city like Chicago or its suburbs people would be fired for such inept service.

[TONY BOX 42]

BUY AMERICAN :Meddle is correct. You must remember the Devil's night in the mid '80's when it got so bad 400 implemented Mutual Aid. Gr, Pte. Park Dearborn, Southfield, Warren and a number of other Departments responded . I was there.

[Meddle]

If somebody has a Library card, they may be able to search newspaper articles for Nov 1984 and find out:

http://dplopac.detroitpubliclibrary....30018/1/1294/X

[Zacha341]

The electrical grid is starting to age across the country. Perhaps the president can put some funding to that along with his other promises...

DTE has cut back staff to save money, doesn't seem like they do any preventive maintenence at all anymore. Did you notice now when 1 storm rolls through 1 county now, it effects 30K plus people ? Your power is out 3-4 days from 1 storm now, it's totally unacceptable, if this was SOP in a city like Chicago or its suburbs people would be fired for such inept service.

[Buy American]

BUY AMERICAN :Meddle is correct. You must remember the Devil's night in the mid '80's when it got so bad 400 implemented Mutual Aid. Gr, Pte. Park Dearborn, Southfield, Warren and a number of other Departments responded . I was there.

400, Apel, Roach or any other Chief during that time never called for Mutual Aid, especially without the permission of Coleman A. Young....he would have fired on the spot anyone who would ask a suburban department to aid Detroit.

Tony...with all due respect, I know who you are, not personally, although we may have met at one time or another on one of your visits to an Engine house or Communications. You are among the many fire buffs [[who have your own organization) who go to the fires, take pictures, and watch as the firemen do their job. I would assume that you always carry your camera with you, even back in the 80's. Please post a picture of any Grosse Pointe Park, Dearborn, Southfield or Warren rig at the scene [[other than on a border of Detroit on stand-by to protect their own city) on any devil's night fire and I will apologize on this site. Otherwise, I stand by my statements because I was there, working devil's night, 1984, 1985 and so on until I retired.

[Meddle]

Somewhere, I do have a picture of a GP rig sharing a hydrant with a Detroit rig at a fire that night on the eastside. I have no idea where it is now though.

As I said above, Dearborn and Southfield remained on the westside and responded with "X" rigs [[E53X for example) as a second unit to smaller incidents [[dumpsters, autos, etc.) out there. Apparatus worked for weeks before that to kludge together anything that would run to be used as "X" rigs, so that the more dependable primary rigs could be sent to the trouble areas. There wasn't a whole lot left in the shop that few nights.

As a result, it would be very unlikely for anyone [[media or otherwise) to have pictures of Dearborn or Southfield on scene anywhere. Possible, but unlikely.

I suppose there might be some audio recordings somewhere [["Central, E53X on the way to [location] with Southfield" for example), but I wouldn't know where to find them.

But, whatever ....................

[Buy American]

I know that, other than official fire department photographs, the fire buffs have stacks and stacks and thousands of albums of pictures....because that's what they do. Out of all the pictures taken at any particular fire, a picture of a suburban rig, fighting a fire in Detroit, sharing a Detroit hydrant, men/women working side by side, would be a coup, a feather in the cap type of thing for any fire buff, and shouldn't be hard to find. Not only that, anyone working at Dispatch would have had to coordinate the entire thing to keep track of where Detroit personnel is, where suburban personnel is, making absolutely sure that the head count was accurate, that no one got lost inside a building, that engines and rigs on the way to the fire wouldn't be involved in accidents with each other...hundreds of small incidental things that would make a combined effort successful. It didn't happen during the 80's, on any devils night or any other night during my 30 years.

I will concede one thing...if a fire was on a street, for example Kingsville on the east side of Detroit, where one side is Detroit and one side is Harper Woods, it would be quite possible that both departments were called and would be at the same scene until it was determined which department was responsible.

A picture is worth a thousand words,,, find ONE.

[mam2009]

Some folks really could benefit from knowing "when to fold 'em".

Anyway, can someone please help me understand why if this was a "natural" disaster, we had widespread fires in numerous areas of the city? This is NOT the first time this city has experienced high winds. This is NOT the first time this city has experienced multiple instances of downed power lines. This is NOT the first time the DFD has had to battle fires during a high wind situation. Was there something abnormal going on in DFD that would have caused them to not be adequately prepared on THIS particular day? That hasn't been discussed on this thread at all yet.

[jfk]

Devils night 1983 and 1984, Go to page eight

http://ksc711.smugmug.com/gallery/19...97363476_jCYpx

[Buy American]

Devils night 1983 and 1984, Go to page eight

http://ksc711.smugmug.com/gallery/19...97363476_jCYpx

Page 66 of 142 shows a Grosse Pointe Park pumper with people milling around. Where is it... exactly?

[Meddle]

^^ That's why I'm not spending any time digging for the picture I have. I don't know if it includes a street sign and if it doesn't, it has no value for this debate.

But that's also why I posted a link to the newspaper archives in case somebody wants to dig in search of an article from that date that might mention something. I don't know if they cover '84 though on-line. The other Freep archive I found only goes back to '99 and the Observer/Eccentric paper for that date didn't discuss it at all.

[TONY BOX 42]

Buy American thank you for recognizing Box 42's efforts. It is always gratifing when a professional resepcts what we do. You indeed know me. I have and still do spend time at
C.O. You know that Box 42 is recognized as an accurate compiler of information. Our simple Newsletter has a reputation for facts.To be sure that the 26 years that have past didn't cloud my memory I imposed on F.C. Dan . Dan spent the morning researchning the Box 42 archives. The Detroit News of Oct 31 1984 has the story. What I found interesting 10 departments were requested for Mutual Aid. One refused. I and Dan have audio of Batt. Chiefs responding to working fires with suburban companies.From my personal journal of that night. I pulled up on a working fire at Mack and Barham . Comercial building Grosse Pointe Park working .Canopy cab Seagrave pumping two 2/1/2 ". Spoke with Phil Costa. Told me it was good for little brother to help big brother for a change. The Box 42 Newsletter for November 1984 has the total rundown of suburban companies.It was Morry. You are right, they never let him forget it. I still think that is why Angels Night came about.

[Buy American]

Somewhere, I do have a picture of a GP rig sharing a hydrant with a Detroit rig at a fire that night on the eastside. I have no idea where it is now though.

As I said above, Dearborn and Southfield remained on the westside and responded with "X" rigs [[E53X for example) as a second unit to smaller incidents [[dumpsters, autos, etc.) out there. Apparatus worked for weeks before that to kludge together anything that would run to be used as "X" rigs, so that the more dependable primary rigs could be sent to the trouble areas. There wasn't a whole lot left in the shop that few nights.

As a result, it would be very unlikely for anyone [[media or otherwise) to have pictures of Dearborn or Southfield on scene anywhere. Possible, but unlikely.

I suppose there might be some audio recordings somewhere [["Central, E53X on the way to [location] with Southfield" for example), but I wouldn't know where to find them.

But, whatever ....................

"X" rigs were City of Detroit equipment, loaners from our [[DFD) Apparatus Division; they were used as extra companies during times like Devil's Night. Example: Engine 53X was used as a second engine and then you had Engine 53... so Dispatch would know the difference. Meddle, you've avoided my question regarding your status with the DFD. Are you a retiree, active member, ever were a member of the DFD or is it what I suspect....you are a fire buff?

[Buy American]

Buy American thank you for recognizing Box 42's efforts. It is always gratifing when a professional resepcts what we do. You indeed know me. I have and still do spend time at
C.O. You know that Box 42 is recognized as an accurate compiler of information. Our simple Newsletter has a reputation for facts.To be sure that the 26 years that have past didn't cloud my memory I imposed on F.C. Dan . Dan spent the morning researchning the Box 42 archives. The Detroit News of Oct 31 1984 has the story. What I found interesting 10 departments were requested for Mutual Aid. One refused. I and Dan have audio of Batt. Chiefs responding to working fires with suburban companies.From my personal journal of that night. I pulled up on a working fire at Mack and Barham . Comercial building Grosse Pointe Park working .Canopy cab Seagrave pumping two 2/1/2 ". Spoke with Phil Costa. Told me it was good for little brother to help big brother for a change. The Box 42 Newsletter for November 1984 has the total rundown of suburban companies.It was Morry. You are right, they never let him forget it. I still think that is why Angels Night came about.

I will check Oct. 31, 1984 copy of the Detroit News myself.
You must have pictures or even be able to post the audio.

[Philbo]

Frome Firehouse Magazine "Devils Night", January 1985, page 64.
At 9 p.m. the D.F.D. called for mutual aid frome suburban departments for the first time since the 1967 riots. The towns that responded were Dearborn, Ferndale, East Detroit, Dearborn Heights, Southfield, Melvendale, Warren and Gross Pointe Park. The mutual aid companies operated for almost five hours before being dimissed.

[Meddle]

"X" rigs were City of Detroit equipment, loaners from our [[DFD) Apparatus Division; they were used as extra companies during times like Devil's Night. Example: Engine 53X was used as a second engine and then you had Engine 53... so Dispatch would know the difference

That's exactly what I said. E53 may have been assigned to the trouble areas so to avoid leaving 53's district empty, they'd put a spare rig out there ID'd as E53X. Since Southfield wouldn't know the district as far as streets, E53 would run with a Southfield rig the way they might with L25 on a normal night to dumpsters or autos.

This is an example. I don't know for sure if E53 ran that way. It may have been a ChiefX or someone else, but I know the suburban units were escorted by a DFD unit.

[Buy American]

This is getting us nowhere. I can say with 100% certainty that Detroit never called for the Mutual Aid Pact during any of the devil's nights. Three people here insist it happened, yet no pictures, articles from newspapers, magazines, audios of communications [[of which I played an intregal part) are available. Until I see some concrete examples that this happened, I'm done with the conversation regarding Mutual Aid Pacts. If all these suburban departments joined with Detroit during any devil's night it would have made headlines, not just in Detroit, but all over the country. Coleman A. Young would never have allowed this to happen because of his distain for all the suburbs around Detroit.
A bunch of retirees meet at the Voyager Restaurant and I will get some of their thoughts regarding this subject.
I will do my own research and if anyone has an actual picture of any suburban department fighting fires right alongside Detroit or pictures of a suburban rig with a street sign in Detroit, audios, articles, please post. Philbo...can you scan that article and post it here?

[Meddle]

Three people here insist it happened,

If you go back and take a count, you'll find that to be about 6 now, maybe 7.

[Buy American]

If you go back and take a count, you'll find that to be about 6 now, maybe 7.

Of those 6 or 7...who worked for DFD and who didn't? That's the question. Again, I worked 30 years for DFD...did you?