Stephen Hawkings "God did not create the universe."

[Gyro]

Not only was the entire universe the size of a pea just after the big bang, it was smaller than a proton, and time was rolled into the singularity, as well as all matter. The big bang is also not just a "theory du jour." It is supported by substantial evidence and will not be replaced by another scientific theory any more than the "theory" of gravity will.

Further, Hawking doesn't believe in the "big crunch" as you state [where the universe collapses]. Recent evidence shows that the expansion of the universe is actually accelerating and Hawking accepts it as do all serious cosmologists.

"What caused it to go boom?"
Causality has little meaning when we are talking about activities on the subatomic level because actions are controlled by quantum mechanics which is more counter-intuitive than you can imagine. Asking what "caused" the big bang is a meaningless question.

"Is this the first time it's happened?"
It's extremely unlikely that our universe was a one-off event. New universes are probably being created continuously but we cannot detect them.

"Of the millions of heavenly bodies created as a result of the big bang, is Earth the only one with intelligent life?"
Vanishingly unlikely.

"Perhaps [Hawking] should have read the Thomistic proofs of God's existence. Call God what you wish. First cause, uncaused might be a good start."
Thomas Aquinas was obviously a very wise man for the 13th century, but like everyone back then, he knew NOTHING about the nature of the universe, gravity, matter, energy, galaxies or quantum mechanics. If he were alive today and knew what we know, he would not even believe his own "proofs." Either that, or he would consider "god" to be a quantum-mechanical blip of a space-time continuum. That's quite different from the purposeful, anthropomorphic god of Christianity, Islam and Judaism.

"Is it possible that creationism will eventually be accepted as the origin of the universe by the process of elimination? It's as good a theory as any I've seen."
Creationism is the theory that an undetectable, magical, supernatural, male humanoid, with no creative or evolutionary history, who none of us have ever seen, snapped his virtual fingers and everything magically popped into existence just as it is now, including light from distant galaxies already on its way to us, just to deceive us into thinking that there was a big bang. Clever god!
Here's a better exposition: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YotBt...eature=related
And this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_nqySMvkcw&NR=1
"The fact is I read constantly about the earth sciences. I've also subscribed to Scientific American for many years and try to muddle through it every issue"
Your understanding of cosmology certainly doesn't support that claim.

"The Bible simply isn't interested in how the Universe came into being." Yeah? Well I am, and "science" sure as hell hasn't been able to tell me.”
I recommend this easy reading book to those who want to understand what science has learned -- and how: http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?inde...rds=0393059928

"maxx, you're a little too arrogant for me and based upon what I've read in your posts you don't have too much to be arrogant about. Nothing personal."

What could be more arrogant than claiming to know the mind of the omnipotent creator of the universe? Wouldn't that be like an ant claiming to understand the mind of Einstein? And what conclusion would the ant probably come to? That Einstein is a big ant-thropomorphic ant!

[Ravine]

Jeez. Do I haveta settle every argument?
*ahem*
OK, here's the deal:
We, Ravine [[a poster by any other name would bear as many thorns, be it in a culvert, or chasm, or wherever) created the universe, because we very much wanted a Frank McCourt to write his memoir, "Angela's Ashes," a Miles Davis to record "Kind Of Blue" & "Bitches Brew," a Francis Ford Coppola to direct "The Godfather," an Al Kaline to be the finest man to ever wear a Detroit Tiger uniform, and a Lola Falana to... well, never mind; we think we have said enough. The point is that, for alla that stuff to happen, we had to start somewhere, so There You Go.
Have a Lovely Day & a Pleasant Tomorrow. Go ahead and make plans for the next few weeks; the world ends when we say so, and ain't shit gonna happen until after the World Series, at the very earliest.

[fryar]

So what do you mean by monkey chatter?

Why, the divine language of evolution [[get it? ). Ooh-ooh-ah-ah-ah!

The world is ending in 2012 anyway.

Lions fans shall be left behind and inherit the earth. Red Wings fans shall inherit Detroit.

Hiccup!

[jcole]

Jeez. Do I haveta settle every argument?
*ahem*
OK, here's the deal:
I, Ravine [[a poster by any other name would bear as many thorns, be it in a culvert, or chasm, or wherever) created the universe, because I very much wanted a Frank McCourt to write his memoir, "Angela's Ashes," a Miles Davis to record "Kind Of Blue" & "Bitches Brew," a Francis Ford Coppola to direct "The Godfather," an Al Kaline to be the finest man to ever wear a Detroit Tiger uniform, and a Lola Falana to... well, never mind; I think I have said enough. The point is that, for alla that stuff to happen, I had to start somewhere, so There You Go.
Have a Lovely Day & a Pleasant Tomorrow. Go ahead and make plans for the next few weeks; the world ends when I say so, and ain't shit gonna happen until after the World Series, at the very earliest.

Can you hold it off until after Christmas? I've got family plans.

[Ravine]

Sure, why not?
Maybe even a bit further. We may have squares for the Super Bowl.

[sturge]

Great post, Gyro!

[gdogslim]

So, Hawking''s has ZERO proof and has not demonstrated that Something can be created from Nothing. If he can repeat that experiment or prove it, then I will bow to him as god.
Can anyone prove that god created the universe, NO. Can anyone prove god did not, NO.
I do know the catholic church says creation and evolution coexist and aren't mutually exclusive.

[MizMotown]

well, i'm a believer in a higher intelligence. not a fanatic, religious believer but a believer that there is a reality beyond "this." have no proof and really can't explain an experience except to say i've experienced shifts. never grew up with religion, never had any type of dogma instilled in my head, etc...

[Danny]

In the Beginning, God created the universe... THE END!

[maxx]

Miz MoTown:
So why bring up monkey chatter on this particular thread which is about the scientist Stephen Hawking?

What could be more arrogant than claiming to know the mind of the omnipotent creator of the universe?

Who has made such a claim and where?

Danny:
Your statement is dogmatic.

[Gyro]

Jeez. Do I haveta settle every argument?
*ahem*
OK, here's the deal:
We, Ravine [[a poster by any other name would bear as many thorns, be it in a culvert, or chasm, or wherever) created the universe, because we very much wanted a Frank McCourt to write his memoir, "Angela's Ashes," a Miles Davis to record "Kind Of Blue" & "Bitches Brew," a Francis Ford Coppola to direct "The Godfather," an Al Kaline to be the finest man to ever wear a Detroit Tiger uniform, and a Lola Falana to... well, never mind; we think we have said enough. The point is that, for alla that stuff to happen, we had to start somewhere, so There You Go.
Have a Lovely Day & a Pleasant Tomorrow. Go ahead and make plans for the next few weeks; the world ends when we say so, and ain't shit gonna happen until after the World Series, at the very earliest.

D'oh! Now it all makes perfect sense! How could I have been so stupid! Where do I go to worship you?

Who has made such a claim and where?

The Pope, Pat Robertson, Ayatollah Khomeini and every Jehovah's Witness to knock on my door.

[johnsmith]

"God did not create the universe."
-Stephen Hawking

"Like anyone can even know that."
-Kip Dynamite

OK, next topic.

[Ravine]

"God did not create the universe."
-Stephen Hawking

"Like anyone can even know that."
-Kip Dynamite

OK, next topic.

Please, if you will, indulge me by showing just where it is that the Hawking "quote" appears.

[Gyro]

Please, if you will, indulge me by showing just where it is that the Hawking "quote" appears.

"In The Grand Design we explain why, according to quantum theory, the cosmos does not have just a single existence, or history, but rather that every possible history of the universe exists simultaneously. We question the conventional concept of reality, posing instead a “model-dependent” theory of reality. We discuss how the laws of our particular universe are extraordinarily finely tuned so as to allow for our existence, and show why quantum theory predicts the multiverse–the idea that ours is just one of many universes that appeared spontaneously out of nothing, each with different laws of nature. And we assess M-Theory, an explanation of the laws governing the multiverse, and the only viable candidate for a complete “theory of everything.” As we promise in our opening chapter, unlike the answer to the Ultimate Question of Life given in the Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, the answer we provide in The Grand Design is not, simply, “42.”

“Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing, It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going.”
Stephen Hawking, The Grand Design

[Gyro]

The link below is to a lecture by cosmologist Lawrence Krauss which will give the lay person an understandable summary of what we now know about the origin and nature of the universe and how we know it. Krauss is the best communicator I've heard on the subject, and he's funny to boot. IMHO, this is the best investment of 54 minutes of your time you will ever make.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Imvl...rom=PL&index=2

[Ravine]

"In The Grand Design we explain why, according to quantum theory, the cosmos does not have just a single existence, or history, but rather that every possible history of the universe exists simultaneously. We question the conventional concept of reality, posing instead a “model-dependent” theory of reality. We discuss how the laws of our particular universe are extraordinarily finely tuned so as to allow for our existence, and show why quantum theory predicts the multiverse–the idea that ours is just one of many universes that appeared spontaneously out of nothing, each with different laws of nature. And we assess M-Theory, an explanation of the laws governing the multiverse, and the only viable candidate for a complete “theory of everything.” As we promise in our opening chapter, unlike the answer to the Ultimate Question of Life given in the Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, the answer we provide in The Grand Design is not, simply, “42.”

“Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing, It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going.”
Stephen Hawking, The Grand Design

Why did you quote my post when your post does not address the request in my post?

[Meddle]

give the lay person an understandable summary of what we now know about the origin and nature of the universe and how we know it.

what we now believe

why we believe it.




We don't KNOW anything. We only think we do.

[johnsmith]

Here, I'll give it another stab.

Please, if you will, indulge me by showing just where it is that the Hawking "quote" appears.

The title of this thread.

[Gyro]

Why did you quote my post when your post does not address the request in my post?

The Hawking quote that you asked for appears in his latest book "The Grand Design" which I quoted since everyone here doesn't have a copy.

[Gyro]

give the lay person an understandable summary of what we now know about the origin and nature of the universe and how we know it.

what we now believe

why we believe it.

We don't KNOW anything. We only think we do.

Meddle, you may know nothing and think that belief is an adequate substitute, but I'm not confused by the distinction. Knowledge is supported by substantial evidence. Beliefs, especially religious beliefs, require none.

[3WC]

Gyro: You've posted [[in your post #8 above) a creative response to my recent post; I thought everyone had said pretty much all there is to say about the topic on a forum like this but I guess not; but that's why I haven't popped in for a few days.

I'm impressed and a little flattered that you spent so much time responding to my post. You're a little snide here and there, but, hell, I love snide and am myself from time to time. The substance of some of your comments leaves a lot to be desired here and there, but I'll respond to some of your comments.

"ASKING WHAT CAUSED THE "BIG BANG" IS A MEANINGLESS QUESTION"

How the universe was created [[or, was it never created and just always "was?") has been a hot topic for centuries and has seen the entire lives of brilliant scientists devoted to the issue. But, that doesn't mean you can't just minimize or ignore it to your heart's content. What is this thread about, anyway, if not that question?

"IF HE [[ST. THOMAS) WERE ALIVE TODAY AND KNEW WHAT WE [[you?) KNOW HE WOULD NOT EVEN BELIEVE HIS OWN "PROOFS."

That's a pretty bold statement to make being that I doubt you're much of a Thomistic scholar, and you're given no indication that you have any support for such a statement from someone that might know what they're talking about.

"YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF COSMOLOGY CERTAINLY DOESN'T SUPPORT THAT CLAIM."

Maybe not.

But, I'm not pretending to be a knowledgable cosmologist. You are.

CREATIONISM IS THE THEORY THAT AN UNDETECTABLE, MAGICAL, SUPERNATURAL, MALE HUMANOID, WITH NO CREATIVE OR EVOLUTIONARY HISTORY, WHO NONE OF US HAS EVER SEEN, SNAPPED HIS VIRTUAL FINGERS AND EVERYTHING MAGICALLY POPPED INTO EXISTENCE JUST AS IT IS NOW INCLUDING LIGHT FROM DISTANT GALAXIES ALREADY ON ITS WAYTO US, JUST TO DECEIVE US INTO THINKING THAT THERE WAS A BIG BANG. CLEVER GOD."

No, clever you. You've shown us in a few words what the problem is. You see, you don't have the slightest understanding of any of the concepts of "God." You've created Him in your own mind, and made Him less than a desireable entity. Your prerogative, of course.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You're sort of the mirror image of a guy I know down here. He's a very experienced petroleum geologist who has made a fortune exploring and producing oil and gas [[but not from the wells we jointly drilled in West Texas on the Pitchfork Ranch - dry holes.) This guy has two degrees, one in Geology from Texas and a Masters in geology from the Colorado School of Mines [[big time.) He is learned in historical geology and the concept of geologic time. He's the quintessential wildcatter. He is aware that irrefutable science has dated the earth to its formation and before, the evolution of the earth geologically [[better know this stuff if you want to find oil), plate tectonics, source rocks, all the trapping mechanisms that have developed over million of years, and so forth. The thing is, however, he is a profound fundamentalist, born again, Pentacostalist who believe literally that God created the earth in 7 days, and He created it just as it is now, today, as IF it had been created and evolved over countless millions of years. He believes that theory just as you believe something equally, to most people, ridiculous. But, maybe you're both right. I guess you could be on to something: Why ask the question? Why involve ourselves in meaningless discussions when it's all so clear to you? As it should be to us, I guess you're saying, if we just knew as much about it as you do.

[rb336]

[quote=3WC;180444] CREATIONISM IS THE THEORY THAT AN UNDETECTABLE, MAGICAL, SUPERNATURAL, MALE HUMANOID, WITH NO CREATIVE OR EVOLUTIONARY HISTORY, WHO NONE OF US HAS EVER SEEN, SNAPPED HIS VIRTUAL FINGERS AND EVERYTHING MAGICALLY POPPED INTO EXISTENCE JUST AS IT IS NOW INCLUDING LIGHT FROM DISTANT GALAXIES ALREADY ON ITS WAYTO US, JUST TO DECEIVE US INTO THINKING THAT THERE WAS A BIG BANG. CLEVER GOD."

no, creationism is NOT a theory

[Ray1936]

"Creationism is the theory that an undetectable, magical, supernatural, male humanoid,"

Sorry. God is female. My wife told me so.

[1KielsonDrive]

Religious people are always pissed off anyway, so what does it matter? Look at the whole fiasco over Ground Zero. How about the burning of the quran? Arabs and Israeli's? Obama's religious background? Gays and marriage? Atheist communists and fundamentalist religious whatevers? It goes on and on and on. They'll always find something to HATE and condemn about their opposing god's creatures.

[Danny]

Sorry. God is female. My wife told me so.

God is not female or male or a child, It's a supreme alien spirit"I AM" who claims it created everything. To find out about 'it', consult it by using your heart. Then you will know who it is.