Stephen Hawkings "God did not create the universe."

**MizMotown** · September-03-10, 11:16 AM

Has written a new book called 'The Grand Design."

lol... he's just pissin the religious folks right off.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe...rse/index.html

LONDON, England [[CNN) -- God did not create the universe, world-famous physicist Stephen Hawking argues in a new book that aims to banish a divine creator from physics.
Hawking says in his book "The Grand Design" that, given the existence of gravity, "the universe can and will create itself from nothing," according to an excerpt published Thursday in The Times of London.

The world you see is an illusion of a world. God did not create it, for what He creates must be eternal as Himself. Yet there is nothing in the world you see that will endure forever. Some things will last in time a little while longer than others [e.g., the greater cosmos, as we shall see below in a passage from the text). But the time will come when all things visible will have an end [[C-4. 1). A Course In Miracles

**Meddle** · September-03-10, 11:25 AM

lol... he's just pissin the religious folks right off.

Or wake them up.

**MizMotown** · September-03-10, 11:53 AM

Religious Leaders Fire Back

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe....html?hpt=Sbin

and now, here we are... 6,866,503,865 of us as of 16:39 UTC [[EST+5) Sep 03, 2010. Winners of the sperm race, each in our own little know-it-all self-centered universes. Glued to this insane world of duality by the forces of gravity. Puppets of media, materialism, error, and false perception; continously searching for something in this world of idols to fill some empty void. Judging everything we see when we don't have .000000000001 of the knowledge to judge anything. Born with eyes that really don't see, ears that really don't hear. Victims of circumstance, brothers and sisters of blame...thinking we are special, better, smarter, more informed than the next guy. Some folks need religion to make it thru the day, just like other folks need drugs, sex, relationships, alcohol, food, pills, shopping, or some other mindless distraction to make sense of this....

**ghettopalmetto** · September-04-10, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by MizMotown

Religious Leaders Fire Back

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe....html?hpt=Sbin

and now, here we are... 6,866,503,865 of us as of 16:39 UTC [[EST+5) Sep 03, 2010. Winners of the sperm race, each in our own little know-it-all self-centered universes. Glued to this insane world of duality by the forces of gravity. Puppets of media, materialism, error, and false perception; continously searching for something in this world of idols to fill some empty void. Judging everything we see when we don't have .000000000001 of the knowledge to judge anything. Born with eyes that really don't see, ears that really don't hear. Victims of circumstance, brothers and sisters of blame...thinking we are special, better, smarter, more informed than the next guy. Some folks need religion to make it thru the day, just like other folks need drugs, sex, relationships, alcohol, food, pills, shopping, or some other mindless distraction to make sense of this....

What's even more disturbing is the media's version of "fair and balanced", where it's legitimate to take the scholarly opinion of someone who studies a particular topic for a living...

...and then in the spirit of "fairness", invoke the unlearned opinion of someone who disagrees "just because".

Then to "balance", give the opinion of the scholar and the idiot equal weight, regardless of facts, evidence, or proof.

**maxx** · September-03-10, 12:57 PM

MizMotown: God did not create it, for what He creates must be eternal as
as Himself.

Why? Why didn't Jesus bring this up when he supposedly was teaching? It can't be because he was afraid of pissing off the High Priest and King.

**MizMotown** · September-03-10, 02:15 PM

God did not create the world as it is today. We are creating it. We have created it. God may have played a part in the form and laid down His laws to govern it such as time and space, etc... Seems He definitely is letting us have a hand in destroying it if he created it or not.

**gibran** · September-03-10, 02:51 PM

How can one person be so sure that there wasn't a creation then a evolution in thought and reality... science and creation can merge...an example is rough but worth repeating...

if we can trace our DNA to 5000 people that share similar characteristics ..these people could have migrated taking with them a creation story...it evolved at the times to satisfy primitive intellect and cognitive understanding ...but is very similar to anthropological understandings.

but then again it could be like the splitting of a village .... just like biblical tails... we all were near each other...moved on and evolved into the cultures that we know today...one group copted the story and made it suit their needs...but all this doesn't prove either theory to a statistically relevant number... until I can have proof at .001 that we didn't come from a higher power I am going to believe in one...and use the Jesus adage as my guiding principles.... but hey that's just me...

**Ray1936** · September-03-10, 04:20 PM

Well, God dealt Dr. Hawkings a lousy hand with his ALS, so perhaps he's earned the right to be pissed off. [[The "he" being Stephen, not God. Everyone knows God is female.)

**Jimaz** · September-03-10, 06:12 PM

Curious the article didn't mention his fondness for the anthropic principle.

Unrelated, but possibly interesting to those who read this thread: This month's Discover magazine has an article about fossil evidence revealing that the human brain is actually smaller than it was 20,000 years ago by about the volume of a tennis ball. One theory [[idiocracy?) is that in today's organized societies, individuals don't need to be as sharp-witted as our more isolated ancestors. Good read.

**Meddle** · September-03-10, 10:51 PM

.these people could have migrated taking with them a creation story...it evolved at the times to satisfy primitive intellect and cognitive understanding

And that's what it is. A story.

littlebuddy · September-04-10, 11:04 AM

I'm glad Stephen Hawkins Thinks he has got it all down pat about what God did and didn't or couldn't do. If Hawkins was so smart, maybe he could figure out a way out of his wheelchair.

**ghettopalmetto** · September-04-10, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by littlebuddy

I'm glad Stephen Hawkins Thinks he has got it all down pat about what God did and didn't or couldn't do. If Hawkins was so smart, maybe he could figure out a way out of his wheelchair.

Are you refuting Hawking's research on physics based on your OPINION???

**3WC** · September-04-10, 12:57 PM

Because of the nature of my business I have had a long-time interest in the earth sciences. The study of the earth and its formation necessarily requires some smattering of knowledge of the formation of the universe. The theory du jour is of course the big bang theory. That assumes that all matter in the universe at one time was compressed into an object the size of a pea. Then, allegedly spontaneously, the "pea" exploded and the universe as we know it was formed in less than a second, and has been expending since that moment of creation. The theory is that at some point it will stop expanding and will commence to contract back into that pea sized space. Hawking believes this,

[[To me it sounds like the musings of some deranged Jim Jones type preacher.)

Now if you believe in the big bang as Hawking and most scientists apparently do, who created that pea sized ball of energy and matter? What caused it to go boom? Is this the first time it's happened? Of the millions of heavenly bodies created as a result of the big bang, is Earth the only one with intelligent life? [[If you believe that, you'd have to believe in God and that God created this whole thing for to believe otherwise would be unthinkable. A random occurance that would defy all the laws of mathematics.)

I admire Hawkings for several reasons. But, perhaps he should have read the Thomistic proofs of God's existence. Call God what you wish. First cause, uncaused might be a good start.

**fryar** · September-05-10, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by MizMotown

God did not create it, for what He creates must be eternal as Himself.

I sure hope he explains that one in more detail in the book. I'm certainly weak on theological matters, but I don't see how that follows. Why couldn't God just do what it pleases? That would seem to be one of its defining characteristics [[omnipotence).

That said, my knee-jerk reaction to this is that he has an agenda, that he is trying to assert science over lunacy. You know, bold stickers on high school text books, equal time for empirically observable facts and a haphazard assemblage of historical events, moralistic fables and starry-eyed dreamscapes, interpreted and reinterpreted throughout multiple millenia, and so on.

Of course, there could be more to it, I may not be as all-knowing as I pretend.

Originally Posted by 3WC

Explain the origin of the universe.

Why bother? I understand Steven Hawking may be asserting some sort of knowledge about this, but really, what's the point of even trying? To figure out what? The why of it all? Or the real truth? The can we're in is traveling down the road, surely someone kicked it, or maybe it was just a gust of wind, but how are we going to know anything certain about that, ever? I am reminded of Chris Rock saying he could state the name of God, but one's head would explode, in the movie Dogma. And anyway, who cares why the can is traveling down the road, let's up and end some suffering.

We are, ourselves, in the can. The best we can do is to surmise.

**Meddle** · September-04-10, 01:27 PM

The theory du jour is of course the big bang theory.

Not so much any more since it really doesn't make sense. String theory or Membrane theory is far more practical.

**ghettopalmetto** · September-04-10, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Meddle

Not so much any more since it really doesn't make sense.

Doesn't make sense TO YOU? Or doesn't make sense to the physicists that study this for their career?

Show your work.

**d.mcc** · September-04-10, 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Doesn't make sense TO YOU? Or doesn't make sense to the physicists that study this for their career?

Show your work.

GP, I believe it's actually moved on to Steady State Theory, in which the universe expands at a constant rate and has since its beginning

**3WC** · September-04-10, 01:58 PM

String theory? I thought they taught that at Julliard. Frankly, I agree with you that the big bang theory makes no sense. I have to go with Newton, who was a creationist. [[Actually, creationism doesn't conflict, in my opinion, with any of the scientific theories, whatever they may be on any given day, as long as there's some explanation of the first cause -- such as who created the pea.)

There is an excerpt from Hawking's book in today's Wall Street Journal, The link is too long - thus obscured - to print. Sorry. Go to www.wsj.com if interested; it's the third article from the top, and page W3 of the print edition.

**Meddle** · September-04-10, 02:04 PM

Or doesn't make sense to the physicists that study this for their career?

Doesn't make sense to a lot of them any more either, hence the new theories.

**Meddle** · September-04-10, 02:06 PM

And of course this brings back the old chicken/egg debate, did God create Man, or did Man create God?

**3WC** · September-04-10, 03:19 PM

I didn't realize there was a debate over who created whom. [[I'm aware, of course, of Voltaire's comment that "If there were no God, it would have been necessary for man to invent him.") But, I don't see the analogy to this issue.

[Voltaire also said that "Common sense is not so common." I'd say he must have read some of the political and economic discussions on this forum but for the fact he's been dead for decades.]

**Jimaz** · September-04-10, 03:32 PM

Why God Did Not Create the Universe
There is a sound scientific explanation for the making of our world—no gods required

**Detroitej72** · September-04-10, 03:39 PM

For the life of me, I will never understand why so many people think that God and science cannot mix.

DetroitPole · September-04-10, 11:15 PM

Reading that article about with the retort from the Brit religious folks, they all made fairly eloquent points except for the Muslim cleric. Sorry, that is one religion I'm never going to be down with. I'm a liberal but geez, what a shitty religion.

**maxx** · September-05-10, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPole

Reading that article about with the retort from the Brit religious folks, they all made fairly eloquent points except for the Muslim cleric. Sorry, that is one religion I'm never going to be down with. I'm a liberal but geez, what a shitty religion.

[The Archbishop of Canterbury] ... added: "Belief in God is not about plugging a gap in explaining how one thing relates to another within the Universe. It is the belief that there is an intelligent, living agent on whose activity everything ultimately depends for its existence."

M: But the point Hawking was making that there is no need for a creator/god. Matter/energy has everything it needs without any "divine" intervention. And there is no ultimate answer to why everything is here. Everyone must answer that question for him/herself. The stars and planets don't care.

Writing in the Times, Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said: "Science is about explanation. Religion is about interpretation ... The Bible simply isn't interested in how the Universe came into being."

M: No and a lot of the things the Bible is concerned about like whose god is superior, who are the chosen people, and how to treat those who don't worship the "superior " god have led to a lot of misery.