Support Complete Streets in Detroit

[Todd_Scott]

If the complete streets thing piggybacks on existing roadwork, or grabs the low-hanging fruit like bike lane striping, excellent.

That is the plan. It's unlikely the city would rebuild a street under this ordinance unless it was already scheduled for road work or external funding was available.

[JimminyCricket]

As far as I know streets are paved, have curbs, drainage, overhead lighting, traffic and flow control and are maintained in most cases. How much more 'complete' can they be?

ROFLOL!

I hope you're being sarcastic son. If you don't know what a complete street is, educate yourself instead of showing your ignorance:

http://www.completestreets.org/

[JimminyCricket]

They are complete as they are even though they need maintenance. One can drive, cycle or walk on existing roadways.

No. The simple fact that one CAN cycle or walk on existing roadways doesn't make them complete streets. That is not the definition of a complete street.

[fryar]

The fact that they're doing the curb work in abandoned areas as well as in denser areas that may at least arguably warrant some beautification efforts or something suggests that they may have a legal obligation to perform this work, in which case, there's no choice to be made about it, you just do it [[it's just like you spending your own money, actually, in the sense that the government inspector shows up and tells you to build a ramp if you want to comply, and so you better build a ramp)

[Hermod]

I used to bicycle all over the east side when Detroit had 1.8 million folks in the city. Now that we have only half of that [[and we have freeways to suck up a lot of the car traffic), the streets are "too crowded" for the bicyclists?

[fryar]

No, they're just not bicycle friendly, and bike paths are basically being used as a proxy for making a street multi-use friendly. Check out this image from that linked-to site:

I don't mean to hold it up as the penultimate of anything, but you've got to admit it's more inviting. The bike path and highlighted crosswalk make walking and biking possible, because the total ownership of the roads by cars is curbed. As a direct result, this is a picture of a place that is more than a stretch of road to be passed through, it is an actual place, where people go, hang out, socialize, and so on.

Tearing up all of Detroit's streets and replacing them with cutesy red brick crosswalks is wasteful, in my opinion. But on the other hand, if you're repaving Jefferson anyway, you should do at least some of that there as well. Jefferson really is kind of scary to cross, which really holds up the foot traffic, undermining economic activity and quality of life. Rinse and repeat, and you have a noticeably "nicer" place, rather than just a place you drive through.

[Novine]

"Even Novi has adopted Complete Streets, which is funny. I rarely see a pedestrian, but they have plenty of sidewalks should a bunch show up one day to walk from one strip mall to the next one."

When are you in Novi? Get away from 12 Oaks Mall and you'll find people walking and biking all over the city. It may not be Ferndale but there no reason people in Novi or Livonia or Sterling Heights shouldn't be able to walk and bike without having to walk on a gravel shoulder or risk life and limb navigating streets with no safe place for bikes.

[Meddle]

Can some of these streets accommodate a dedicated bike lane? If so, it costs next to nothing to stripe a bike lane.

Do you have any idea what traffic paint costs? Fuel for the trucks? Labor?

Earlier this year there was a story about a shortage of traffic paint and some roads projects were being delayed because of that. [[ http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/24/us/24paint.html )

But I guess that's OK if a half-dozen or so people want to ride a bike a few times a year.

[Meddle]

Check out this image from that linked-to site:

Seems like a waste of perfectly good on-street parking.

[Rocko]

And here I thought this was going to be a thread about "taking back 24th Street from Matty Moroun," or "reopening 1st Street between Lafayette and Michigan!"

I agree that complete streets are something Detroit and our region should strive for, however, the education will be challenging. We can't even get people to stop double parking on busy crowded downtown streets, let alone get any serious traffic planning/signal timing down right. We can all hope, though...

[fryar]

Seems like a waste of perfectly good on-street parking.

That would be a waste of a perfectly good town.

Seriously, good luck finding a space if they turn that into on-street parking. The town would do well to focus on its competitive advantage, which is not parking. That's much better out in the strip malls. A town's competitive advantage is that it is [[or can be, if not derelict) a nice place to be and interact. It's what they were designed for and/or grew around. Making it easy and inviting to get around enhances that advantage.

[fryar]

But I guess that's OK if a half-dozen or so people want to ride a bike a few times a year.

This is about reclaiming the town for human activity, not whatever it is you're asserting [[outsize demands by a sporting elite?).

If this is prohibitively expensive, that is a concern. Also, there would be nothing wrong with funding some of this privately/via a BID, where possible, just to get it done already.

[Novine]

"Do you have any idea what traffic paint costs? Fuel for the trucks? Labor?"

Whatever the cost, when a crew is out restriping the normal traffic lanes, it adds very little to the total cost to have them do an extra line for a bike lane. If you want to claim that traffic lanes would never have to be restriped save to add the bike lane, you might have a point. But as the article you linked to showed, traffic lane lines have to be restriped regularly, undermining the already weak point you were trying to make.

[PlymouthRes]

With all the money poured into the socialist agenda of the Obama programs, he would have done well to make those who are receiving them work for their money. He should have enacted a WPA-esque program a long time ago, when he was first elected, which would have at least provided an atmosphere of work for pay among the receipents, rather than just handing out money willy-nilly.

A CCC type of program would have offered the participants and opportunity to save our state and local parks, and the WPA type of programs would have helped rebuild our infrastucure, rather than those projects taxing a already strained system.

Roosevelt at least had the sense to enact this type of program, which at the very least instilled some pride into those who were down and out, rather than perpetuate their plight. Obama would do well to study this and enact it immediately. Maybe then he would get some of the nay-sayers off his back.

Just my .02.

Res

[Novine]

"When all you bike riders, pedestrians, etc start paying a tax or fee to be able to have your sidewalks and bike lanes, I'd be all game for it.'

I checked my property tax bill and here in Novi, I'm paying property taxes for city roads and also paying off bonds that paid to widen city and county roads and for the interchange at Beck Road. That's on top of the gas taxes and car registration and license fees I pay. Sounds like I'm paying at least my fair share to have the right to ask for bike lanes and sidewalks. I've never seen a biker cause a pot hole or a pedestrian need a turn lane. It's automobile and truck traffic that generate all of the maintenance costs for roads. If we had more bikes and fewer cars, we would have to pay a lot less to maintain the roads than we do today.

[DC48080]

Yeah, that is what I want to do, ride my bike to work wearing a suit and tie and trade a 15 minute car ride for a 2 hour bike ride. Ride my bike to the grocery store to buy a week's worth of groceries. Ride my bike in the rain or in the winter.

You're right, cars suck!

[Novine]

No one is forcing you to do anything. But in your world, the people who want to bike to work or to the store or walk anywhere don't get a choice. Most of the roads in SE Michigan aren't designed to allow bikers to use them safely although they could be designed and built to support both cars and bikes. Likewise, many places don't have sidewalks for walking. We force everyone into cars even though it's the most expensive mode of transportation and requires massive amounts of your tax dollars to support. You insist on your right to drive everywhere and want to deny anyone the right to bike or walk anywhere.

[Meddle]

You insist on your right to drive everywhere and want to deny anyone the right to bike or walk anywhere

I never had any problem riding Fenkell or Grand River or Greenfield.

[kathy2trips]

It did it, and urge the Detroit diaspora to sign it also. I put "native born" next to my name, since it asks if you live, work or go to school in Detroit. Let them know that we care about our hometown, too.

[JimminyCricket]

I used to bicycle all over the east side when Detroit had 1.8 million folks in the city. Now that we have only half of that [[and we have freeways to suck up a lot of the car traffic), the streets are "too crowded" for the bicyclists?

Exactly. Almost all of the city of Detroit's main streets have excess capacity [[are too wide). In some cases they could cut the number of lanes in half and they would still be able to handle the same amount of traffic.

[DC48080]

You insist on your right to drive everywhere and want to deny anyone the right to bike or walk anywhere.

When did I ever say I want to deny anyone any rights????

You're being hypersensitive here.

[Johnlodge]

"Even Novi has adopted Complete Streets, which is funny. I rarely see a pedestrian, but they have plenty of sidewalks should a bunch show up one day to walk from one strip mall to the next one."

When are you in Novi? Get away from 12 Oaks Mall and you'll find people walking and biking all over the city. It may not be Ferndale but there no reason people in Novi or Livonia or Sterling Heights shouldn't be able to walk and bike without having to walk on a gravel shoulder or risk life and limb navigating streets with no safe place for bikes.

Lived there for about 10 years. It's not that I disagree with you that they should be able to have complete streets, I'm glad they are pursuing it, I just think if you truly value a community that is pedestrian and bicycle friendly, you might be doing yourself a favor by moving to one designed that way from the beginning. It's difficult to retrofit Novi.

[shovelhead]

I'll be one of the first to slam Novi, but also one to defend it if is right.

I have personal history there going back to the 1930's, both sides of the family and me personally back to the early 1950's. I lived there when there was only ONE traffic light, on Grand River, at Novi Road.

Background on the city, it was a Township until 1958. Incorporated as a Village at that time due to the annexation of the area where the Ford Wixom Assembly Plant was by Wixom which was a Village. Novi had a fire department in the 1920's, but no police department until 1954 due to the efforts of Lee BeGole, chief into the 1990's. Incorporated as a city in 1969. So in reality, a young city even though it was settled in the 1840's IIRC.

Until the mid 1970's there was not even a full line grocery store within the city limits . Built at Ten Mile and Meadowbrook, a REAL strip mall.

Starting with a area that was rural and farmland still in the 1970's, in fact the aforementioned strip mall was built on the site of a pig farm, the opening of Twelve Oaks exploded the city. I left in 1979 to move out of state, when I returned in 1988, if I didn't know where I was, I would have been lost if that makes any sense.

I agree, that foot traffic was not thought through, but that was a different era. If you lived at Grand River and say, Taft Road, would you have walked to the grocery store at Ten and Meadowbrook? About a ten mile round trip or so? Residential areas were spread out in the 60's and 70's there. Pockets like Willowbrook, Orchard Hills, Meadowbrook Glens, all in close proximity to each other.

As the population increased, fill in construction, retail increased, more thought was put forth regarding pedesterian traffic. When roads were reconstructed, where in many cases bar ditches were in the right of way, this was reconfigured for walkways. For years, the only paved walkways were on Grand River from Clark St.to the viaduct over the C & O tracks to the four corners, east from there to about the present day Tommy's Auto, and on Novi Road north to the School on Novi Road, south on Novi road to the cemetry just north of the tracks. And those were probably constructed in the 1920's along with the viaduct and paving of Grand River. THAT was the central business district at the time.

I'll be the first to slam that city for stupidity, [[Shall we remember Sandstone and the 65 MILLION dollar lawsuit the city lost at 20K a day in interest on top of that,the Hooter's liquor license fiasco, and so on ), but I'll defend them today on pedesterian friendly as RESCONSTRUCTION of the infrastructure is completed.

And no, I no longer live there, after my last fifteen year stint there, moved away in 04.

[wolverine]

They are complete as they are even though they need maintenance. One can drive, cycle or walk on existing roadways. To redesign and rebuild for another purpose would be cost prohibitive.

Raise taxes? No, I strive to end government waste dealing with nonsensical proposals.

A $40 million bike trail bypass lane is being constructed near me [[400' long). With public financing approved, no one is complaining, so why should you?

[Novine]

"A $40 million bike trail bypass lane is being constructed near me [[400' long)."

Where is that located?