When did Aunt become Ont ?

[terryh]

Ive heard white Americans pronounce the word as ont. An educated friend of mine said that when slavery was still in operation, the slaves would speak in a mumble jumble code, which, he claims can still be heard in some of the African American dialect. Black aquaintainces have pronounced my name as Tay-rah.

[1KielsonDrive]

And you ought to hear young Arabics and Banglis mixing their languages with English and Black, street talk. You really have to listen closely to attempt to understand it. In high school we spoke a mix of English and Black, street talk, much to the concern of our parents - Black and White. My concern is if it detracts from learning languages correctly, negatively impacting their education. Of course, I survived and speak decent [[that's debatable) english.

[Stosh]

˙əɹəɥ ou-ou ɐ əɹɐ ʇɐɥʇ spɹoʍ ɹəɥʇo uəʌə ɹo ʻʇɪ ɥʇɪʍ ~~~~~~~~ ʎɐs uɐɔ noʎ ˙ʎllɐnʇɔɐ ʻʇxəʇ uʍop əpɪsdn ɟo ɐəpɪ əɥʇ əʞɪl ɪ

[One Shot]

Funnier yet is I could actually read the upside down/backwards writing pretty easy! Kinda like those email mind benders!

[English]

OK, OK, I'll do it. I'm living on borrowed time, anyway.

Let's not bullshit around with this topic. Black folks tend to have their own way of expressing themselves, their own variant on standard English. The reasons for that are open for discussion, but I think it is fair to say that there is nothing nefarious about it. Some of it is derived from southern dialects, some of it is not.

Any American wishing to get anywhere would do well to know how to speak & write in standard English, but there is no compelling reason-- at least not in my eyes, or to my ears-- why folks shouldn't talk, with each other, in whatever fashion suits them and communicates their expression. Sometimes, when an outside observer is confounded by what they are hearing, it is a classic "I wasn't talking to you" situation.

Ahnt, ant. Who gives a damn.

A funny thing about white folks. White folks would like to be selective about when, and in which situations, black folks do as white folks do.

Ask a deaf person how it feels to be always left on the outside, to be right next to, but essentially separate from, the world in which the rest of us happily bounce around, yakking with each other, laughing, listening to music and gluing cell phones to our heads. Ask them how that feels, and then ask yourself if you think they really give a damn if you can understand their Sign Language, or if maybe they would just as soon prefer that you didn't understand it, so they could have, with each other, one little corner of the universe wherein they can block out the rest of us who couldn't care less if they feel blocked out of so much of the universe which we take for granted.

Everybody would be well-served to know how to use standard English; that's a fact. But, if black folks choose to frequently employ their own little idiomatic & idiosyncratic way of talking with each other, that's their goddam business, and any white folks who have a problem with it do, indeed, have a problem, and that problem has nothing to do with idioms.

Ravine? Thanks.

[Ravine]

English, I believe that I understand why you are thanking me, and I believe that you are 100% sincere in doing so, and so it is my pleasure to reply, "you're welcome."

Nobody around here-- this forum, this city, this country-- is hesitant to imply, hint at, or make oblique references to what they really mean to say.
That irritates me. If folks would just say what they really mean and express what they really feel, some tender feelings could be bruised, but we'd be at least a half-step closer to getting some of the impacted fecal matter out of the intestinal tract of our social organism.

As I like to say-- with accompanying self-righteousness, egotism, pedantry, and an inflated sense of self-importance: We are Ravine, and we tolerate no bullshitters.

[LodgeDodger]

English, I believe that I understand why you are thanking me, and I believe that you are 100% sincere in doing so, and so it is my pleasure to reply, "you're welcome."

Nobody around here-- this forum, this city, this country-- is hesitant to imply, hint at, or make oblique references to what they really mean to say.
That irritates me. If folks would just say what they really mean and express what they really feel, some tender feelings could be bruised, but we'd be at least a half-step closer to getting some of the impacted fecal matter out of the intestinal tract of our social organism.

As I like to say-- with accompanying self-righteousness, egotism, pedantry, and an inflated sense of self-importance: We are Ravine, and we tolerate no bullshitters.

Excellent header material, if I say so myself. Oh, wait...

[English]

English, I believe that I understand why you are thanking me, and I believe that you are 100% sincere in doing so, and so it is my pleasure to reply, "you're welcome."

Nobody around here-- this forum, this city, this country-- is hesitant to imply, hint at, or make oblique references to what they really mean to say.
That irritates me. If folks would just say what they really mean and express what they really feel, some tender feelings could be bruised, but we'd be at least a half-step closer to getting some of the impacted fecal matter out of the intestinal tract of our social organism.

As I like to say-- with accompanying self-righteousness, egotism, pedantry, and an inflated sense of self-importance: We are Ravine, and we tolerate no bullshitters.

We wouldn't have you any other way, Ravine.

One more point and I'll shut up about this forever [[or for the time being). White folks code-switch too! Perhaps not between dialects, but certainly between registers.

[Ravine]

Not much, in life, more nauseating to me than the little white girl who be talkin' like she's one, too, like maybe she hopin' that one of the bros will axe her out.

Definitely time for me to leave this thread and stay left. I mean gone. You know what I mean.

[PlymouthRes]

Ravine-

I hope that you were not implying that I was somehow referring to any particular group in what I said, as I made a generic statement about everyone and no where did I specify or imply that this "problem" was specific to blacks only. If you believe that was mny intent, then I challenge you to point it out directly as I did no such thing.

I sincerely hope that you were not referring to me, because you would be dead wrong. I am no bullshitter. Since you don't know me other than a handful of posts on this forum, I can't imagine that you would be so crass as to imply that.

Res

[LodgeDodger]

We wouldn't have you any other way, Ravine.

One more point and I'll shut up about this forever [[or for the time being). White folks code-switch too! Perhaps not between dialects, but certainly between registers.

I don't follow. Please explain.

[English]

^ All it means is that people use language according to the situation. No one uses the same register of language at home, at school, at work, at the Riverfront, over beers, while making love, while talking to their babies, etc. It just doesn't happen.

Even those who purport to speak "standard English" all the time don't consistently use it from context to context -- we have many examples of this. I have hundreds of hours of tape from English teachers and professors using "nonstandard" features of language in their classrooms and professional seminars, and I've just begun my work. This is not to pick on them [[after all, I am a dialect speaker), but to illustrate that often what we think we've said and what our audience actually hears are two different creatures. This has real implications for human communication.

[Neilr]

I've posted Motto on other threads and it seems to fit onto this one also. It's probably my favorite poem by Langston Hughes. To me, he seems to say that there is value in being able to speak both in dialect [[slang) and in the standard register. The key is being able to effectively switch back and forth as needed.


Motto
Langston Hughes

I play it cool
I dig all jive
That's the reason
I stay alive
My motto
As I live and learn
Is dig and be dug in return

[Neilr]

Ax or Ask? The African American Guide to Better English

Garrard McClendon, a young, seemingly conservative writer/lecturer wrote Ax or Ask? The African American Guide to Better English several years ago. This slim 83 page book is not a scholarly work on the topic of English language usage; but rather a very readable guide for students and others who want to improve their communication skills.

McClendon does not disparage the use of Black English. He clearly points out the value and joy of using it in conversation with friends and family. And then he goes on to describe the value, actually, the necessity, of standard pronunciation in the business and educational worlds.

Chapter titles:

1) Children Left Behind
2) A Time and a Place for Black English
3) Forbidden Words, Phrases, Definitions, and Pronunciations
4) The Origin of Black English Dialect
5) Black Leaders Use Mainstream English
6) Good and Evil in the Language of Hip Hop
7) Teaching Mainstream English to Black Children
8) Expert Commentary on Black English
9) Remarks and Statistics

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...lish&x=15&y=18

He begins Chapter 2 with a quote from William Raspberry:

"Good English, well spoken and well written, will open more doors than a college degree. Bad English will slam doors you didn't even know existed."

I found the book to be well done for what it is and worth reading.

[Ravine]

Ravine-

I hope that you were not implying that I was somehow referring to any particular group in what I said, as I made a generic statement about everyone and no where did I specify or imply that this "problem" was specific to blacks only. If you believe that was mny intent, then I challenge you to point it out directly as I did no such thing.

I sincerely hope that you were not referring to me, because you would be dead wrong. I am no bullshitter. Since you don't know me other than a handful of posts on this forum, I can't imagine that you would be so crass as to imply that.

Res

My post was a response to the general tone of the thread as a whole. I didn't have any one person's remarks in mind.
If, in any way, any part of my presented shoe fits you personally, I would like to think that you would know it, but I don't know it.
The bullshit reference is aimed at the way in which we-- folks in general, I mean-- discuss some of these culturally-sensitive issues. A real hazard in Political Correctness, and its various cousins, is that the kid-gloving and use of euphemism & implication gets out of hand; the distance between gently dancing around and downright bullshit makes for a short trip.

[Ravine]

I hope the above post is reasonably clear and makes some sense. I'm really tired, right now, and my verbal fingers are pretty much numb at the tips.

[PlymouthRes]

Your post was crystal clear, and I appreciate your response. As the shoe is a bit "small" for me, I will interpret your response as not being toward me, but, as you said, the audinece in general.

This has been a good thread, and very enlightening to me. I in no way, shape or form intended what I wrote to be a "slam" against any one specific group, rather it was a general observation of the deterioration of applied English in the context of general usage. If I have offended anyone with my comments, I ask that my intent be reconsidered as applying to the whole, not the sum of its parts.

Res

[LodgeDodger]

^ All it means is that people use language according to the situation. No one uses the same register of language at home, at school, at work, at the Riverfront, over beers, while making love, while talking to their babies, etc. It just doesn't happen.

Even those who purport to speak "standard English" all the time don't consistently use it from context to context -- we have many examples of this. I have hundreds of hours of tape from English teachers and professors using "nonstandard" features of language in their classrooms and professional seminars, and I've just begun my work. This is not to pick on them [[after all, I am a dialect speaker), but to illustrate that often what we think we've said and what our audience actually hears are two different creatures. This has real implications for human communication.

Aside from Internet postings, I generally use the same type of speech for everyone. My friends do, too. Unless you're communicating with a different age group, there's really no need.

[Neilr]

Aside from Internet postings, I generally use the same type of speech for everyone. My friends do, too. Unless you're communicating with a different age group, there's really no need.

One of my favorite authors/presenters on the topic of the roles of language/story/class/poverty and how they impact education is Ruby Payne. She breaks language usage in to 5 registers. [[Other writers/researchers might have a different scheme; but I use hers.) They are:

Frozen: the word pattern never changes. For example, the Lord Prayer, the Pledge of Allegiance, the opening format of a meeting, and court oaths.

Formal: the language of education and business. Most books and reports are written in the formal register. Most people's reading vocabulary is much more extensive than their speaking vocabulary. That means they are comfortable with thousands of words.

Consultative: conversation between colleagues and friends. This could be also referred to as standard oral English. It's everyday language.

Casual: easy conversation among friends and family using a relatively small vocabulary. Body language, expression and slang come into play to convey meaning.

Intimate: you can figure this one out.

It's much harder to be successful in this country without the ability to adapt your written and oral language to function in the different registers as needed.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss...fix=Ruby+Payne

[56packman]

Youppers say "Ont" too. My personal dislike in urban patois is the new trend where nothing is plural and nothing is possesive e.g. "that Sheenquah coat" or "it gonna rain today" "5 dollars, 45 cent". I went to DPS in the 60s, the african-american kids I went to school with did not speak this way at all, if there was any noticable difference it was a southern dialect, and terms like "y'all" could be used, but it was more like genteel southen speech then.

[txlady]

The first time I ran into 'Ont' was moving to the Houston area and encountering my black relatives [[in-laws). I grew up in Detroit and Ottawa, I'm white, and I always said 'Ant'.

[Pingu]

^ All it means is that people use language according to the situation. No one uses the same register of language at home, at school, at work, at the Riverfront, over beers, while making love ...

If you've got something to say while we're "doin' the deed", it can wait, OK? I mean, like, is nothing sacred?

[upinnair]

I'll just start saying "the woman married to my uncle", to avoid any conflict.

[canuck]

You don't need the out Pam, but aint it more enjoyable to have an "out" to complain about?

I fink if I was fem east end Londin, I'd probly 'andle standid english be'ah than most of you damn yankees no ma'ah wha' cullah skin you was...

English is a very complex thing and its standardized rules are relatively recent. In France, the push toward standardization is older and an academy was set up to rule. Notwithstanding the literary merits of its membership, the academy is nonetheless an aged white male dominated club, devoted to ossifying the language, pontifying on what sounds right to a parisian ear. I wish no such apparatus on the english language. Although its usage is universal, it is sometimes more laughable when we get closer to its source...

In Quebec, I am used to hearing anglos here that the french spoken is not the french they learned in school; not proper etc... but the french I speak is an american french, and I use this expression "american" referring to the continent, like the various spanish dialects that span the americas.
Granted a lot of what I hear in my native tongue as well as in english irks me at times, but I really embrace all of it because at the end of the week, it is better to break some rules in order to express certain truths.

In France, there are not just dialects, but langages spoken in the basque country for instance or in Brittany, and historically, the need to "standardize" was not a quest for a more polite educated society, but rather an invasion. The irish almost lost their language on account of a massive education system set up by the english rulers and the same can be said of a lot of regions in Europe. Languages are funny, they spell discord as much as concord. I live in a city where you can walk a few city blocks and find yourself in a totally different headspace, culturally, and this cohabitation of french and english has been both invigorating and infuriating since 1760. I wouldnt have it any other way.

[Downtown Lady]

Canuck, I really, really love your post -- everything about it.