WSU worst in nation

[English]

Well, let's see:

UD Jesuit HS is at the top with an average ACT comp of 24 in 2009.
Then come Renaissance and Cass Tech. considerably behind with ACT comp avs.
of 21.8 and 20.1. All the rest are below the Michigan average [19] starting with Comm. & Media Art HS, Universal Acad., Aisha Shule, and Davis Aerospace. The Detroit av. for 2009 was 15.6. King HS was 12 on the list followed by Univ. Prep., Winans Acad., and Western Internat.. All the rest were below the Detroit average. It looks like they averaged together the ACT avs. for 2008 and 2009 to get the final rankins.. I can't scroll it over any farther than that column.

Well, exactly. Someone who is scoring 15 on the ACT may struggle with upper division college courses unless quite a bit of remediation is done.

[mwilbert]

Someone scoring 15 on the ACT is unlikely to be successful in college. I'm all in favor of giving people a chance to fill in the gaps, but someone with a 15 ACT probably should be doing something at a community college or Adult Ed class before they go to a university.

It would also save them some money.

[Hermod]

When I went to college in September 1957, our freshman class totaled 363. Of that number of students, 202 eventually graduated [[about 160 graduated on time in June 1961). Very few of my classmates dropped out for financial reasons. The dropouts just couldn't hack it academically. We always considered that to be an attribute of the "selectivity" of the school on the "many are called, but few are chosen" basis.

[fryar]

Someone scoring 15 on the ACT is unlikely to be successful in college. I'm all in favor of giving people a chance to fill in the gaps, but someone with a 15 ACT probably should be doing something at a community college or Adult Ed class before they go to a university.

It would also save them some money.

Exactly.
The low ACT scores suggest the possibility that the statistical difference between whites and blacks in the 6-year graduation rates at WSU has at least something to do with DPS not exactly excelling at preparing its students for college whereas other school districts do a much better job at this. The fact that this plays itself out along racial lines is due to the same "accident of history" that apparently makes the word "Detroiter" code for black - a noticeable disparity of the distribution of demographics in Metro Detroit.

The quickest, easiest fix is remedial education. An intensive [[possibly residential) 13th school year, if you will, for those who don't "measure up."

There may still be something to majohnson's other idea, that a certain portion of the difference relates to students working their way through school and dealing with other issues such as having children at that stage in life - which is certainly related to that same "accident of history." But the ACT scores tell us that even if those particular affects of history were reversed, the legacy of that time would still show itself in the form of lower graduation rates [[in 6 years) for blacks due to the subpar ACT scores.

Anyway, none of this can be news to people who think about this sort of thing all the time. Are there no remedial programs in existence at WSU? Or are they simply not being promoted enough/in the right way?

[fryar]

When I went to college in September 1957, our freshman class totaled 363. Of that number of students, 202 eventually graduated [[about 160 graduated on time in June 1961). Very few of my classmates dropped out for financial reasons. The dropouts just couldn't hack it academically. We always considered that to be an attribute of the "selectivity" of the school on the "many are called, but few are chosen" basis.

I didn't realize you went to Wayne State, Hermod.

Point taken, but I think that's just a different time. For one thing, we need people to go to college and be successful there. The jobs are different, the requirements of the economy are different, and that includes things like government service. On the whole, this is related to the rising standard of living, and is basically a good thing.

To just accept high failure rates [[honestly, even like that) instead of looking for systemic fixes is an institution just falling down on the job - in this case, a public institution.

[MrNittany]

[[personal background: WSU for my masters degree after Penn St for undergrad.)

Good discussion thus far, but one thing I haven't seen mentioned is the university's support staff ----- as a whole, they are awful. Just awful. I think most WSU students/alums would agree.

I fully support WSU providing opportunities to a wide array of incoming students, but if that's going to be the university philosophy --- you CANNOT have a support and/or administrative staff that is unmotivated and often incompetent. Financial aid staff that can't keep track of documents, advisors that are not well versed on program requirements, etc etc ... the well-motivated get through that nonsense, but you're going to lose a lot of students.

Simply firming up the support staff would really help the "metrics" like graduation rate, IMO.

For that negative, the professors and education received was great, and my time there was very well spent.

[Hermod]

I agree with you on support staff. When I was in graduate and when i was helping my stepson negotiate college administration, I was appalled at how incompetent they were.

When I was an undergrad, registration went like this:

1. Sign in and fill out a very simple 3x8 card [[in triplicate).

2. Go to the table for my major. One of the profs would be manning the table and would ask, "are you still a civil engineer?" When I would answer in the affirmative, he would give me a piece of paper and say, "here are your classes and schedule".

3. I would then go over to room assignments and choose a room. The guy there would pencil in my name on a floor by floor blueprint of the dorm.

4. I would then go to the room, unpack my bags, then search the storage rooms for the stuff I had stored over the summer.

5. In a couple of hours, I was settled in and ready to go to classes the next morning.

6. Those were simple days.

[Hermod]

I didn't realize you went to Wayne State, Hermod.

I didn't go to Wayne State. I went out of state to school. I wanted to get away from home. I wanted to try and get away from a very controlling mother [[she was a wonderful mother and loved us very much, but she couldn't help trying to control everything and everybody).

[Warrenite84]

Belleislerunner, I have to agree with your assessment of cost being a predominant factor.

In my case as a WSU student, I am a second shift worker in my 40's. Due to my seniority in skilled trades, I can only handle 6-8 credits per semester, [[including summer semester). At any time I could be bumped off my shift and have to drop my classes, hence my part-time status.

Costs for me are high at WSU, particularly for parking and books. I am financing my education thru FAFSA, but the WSU Dept. of Admissions is particularly inept at managing and applying funds from my account.

I came to WSU based on the programs they offer and the publicly perceived value attached to attaining a degree from there. [[A degree from a school with a tough curriculum is valued higher than a degree from a watered-down curriculum). A devaluation of a degree program will cause applicants to look elsewhere and a drop in enrollment levels.

I believe WSU should have stringent admission policies, [[with a community college element), but more importantly a highly publicised financial counseling program for helping students to afford the costs associated with finishing their degree.

[Danny]

I agree with you on support staff. When I was in graduate and when i was helping my stepson negotiate college administration, I was appalled at how incompetent they were.

When I was an undergrad, registration went like this:

1. Sign in and fill out a very simple 3x8 card [[in triplicate).

2. Go to the table for my major. One of the profs would be manning the table and would ask, "are you still a civil engineer?" When I would answer in the affirmative, he would give me a piece of paper and say, "here are your classes and schedule".

3. I would then go over to room assignments and choose a room. The guy there would pencil in my name on a floor by floor blueprint of the dorm.

4. I would then go to the room, unpack my bags, then search the storage rooms for the stuff I had stored over the summer.

5. In a couple of hours, I was settled in and ready to go to classes the next morning.

6. Those were simple days.

Today when signing a class in WSU, You have to sign up for your pipeline account in the Internet, click the mouse to look up class schedules, add a CRN or course number, print out your class scheudules, check up on your FAFSA [[ if you have one) click on your E-bill to check you tuition payments and you're all set.

WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET

Those were the days.

Neda, I miss you so.