What Can Detroit do to Reinvent Itself and Begin to Change its Negative Reputation?

[GOAT]

jt1 that is true inNY and Chicago but people don't automatically want their children in private schools especially when they are funding public schools through their taxes.
Also, Chicago and NY aren't Detroit with such epidemically low incomes. How many middle class people send their kids to private schools?
In this day and age that price gets tough to do especially since the prospects for jobs in Detgroit is quite low.

[fryar]

Judging from the biking in the D thread, biking may make a good vehicle [[no pun intended) for advertising the fact that, uh, helo-oh, this city is not just one big sinkhole of shit [[ie has a negative reputation?). I think it was Jimaz who said he had brought some skeptical suburbanite friends downtown for a bike ride, and they were all astonished about Campus Martius being there, and Riverwalk, and such [[I guess they didn't get the memo 5,6,7 years ago ;-). That comment was immediately followed by somebody else saying their parents had the same reaction when coming downtown recently, after years of panning Detroit, and how the student had become the teacher.

That's what some of the comments in this thread are driving at, right, changin the reputation, giving people in the region a sense that they have a stake in Detroit, etc.? I don't know how to set this sort of thing up, and maybe it's already out there, but couldn't we have bike tours in addition to the walking tours and the Segway tours? Maybe throw an existing walking tour guide at the Michigan bike club or whatnot and invite a reporter or two and some bloggers along in the hopes that the free publicity will generate some public interest in this idea? It would be a way to get some suburbanite folks who slept through the 2006 Superbowl downtown and open their eyes a little.

Sorry for all the apparent knocking of suburbanites, I realize that's been done already, and I don't really mean to knock all suburbanites or put a negative spin on Jimaz's story. I just think it's weird not to know about Campus Martius. Not unusual, I realize, but I think it's a strange state of affairs. Can you see Long Islanders coming into Manhattan and saying "Gosh, look, honey, what a swell ice rink" outside of Rockefeller Center? Or "Wouldja get a look at Central Park?" I remember being new in town, and hearing Super Bowl commentators stress how much downtown had improved, how amazing it was, and so on. And much has transpired since.

Anyhoo, people like me gripe about the People Mover being a reflection of a ridiculous approach to walking and experiencing the world [[namely, avoid it at all costs), but the fact is I'm no gym rat, and I don't bike 20 miles at a stretch or anything. I'd get a nice afternoon's exercise out of hearing somebody tell me a bunch of interesting factoids about downtown and then biking up to New Center for some more interesting factoids, or to Bell Isle, or whatever. I don't imagine I'm the only one, either, who sort of can't bring himself to bike aimlessly or stare at a wall while pretending to climb stairs yet thinks they should find ways to exercise more. Different tours of different degrees of strenuousness could be designed, and it could conceivably work.

Well, there you go again. Somebody should do something. <sigh> ;-)

But part and parcel of what I am suggesting is that you make use of a lot of already existing infrastructure, like the existing tours and the existing [[presumed) bike club. Is there an existing biking in Michigan-type blog out there? Does anyone who knows their stuff a little bit want to invite that person on a quality D-bike ride so they can write and post pics about it, and enthuse some folks, and maybe follow up down the road with a mention of the bike-based tours? Or stick an ad in a biking magazine?

I generally favor making incremental changes at the margin of what you're doing over a wholesale new project because it's way easier to pull off and, in the aggregate, can contribute significantly as well.

[bailey]

Judging from the biking in the D thread, biking may make a good vehicle [[no pun intended) for advertising the fact that, uh, helo-oh, this city is not just one big sinkhole of shit [[ie has a negative reputation?). I think it was Jimaz who said he had brought some skeptical suburbanite friends downtown for a bike ride, and they were all astonished about Campus Martius being there, and Riverwalk, and such [[I guess they didn't get the memo 5,6,7 years ago ;-). That comment was immediately followed by somebody else saying their parents had the same reaction when coming downtown recently, after years of panning Detroit, and how the student had become the teacher.

That's what some of the comments in this thread are driving at, right, changin the reputation, giving people in the region a sense that they have a stake in Detroit, etc.? I don't know how to set this sort of thing up, and maybe it's already out there, but couldn't we have bike tours in addition to the walking tours and the Segway tours? Maybe throw an existing walking tour guide at the Michigan bike club or whatnot and invite a reporter or two and some bloggers along in the hopes that the free publicity will generate some public interest in this idea? It would be a way to get some suburbanite folks who slept through the 2006 Superbowl downtown and open their eyes a little.

Sorry for all the apparent knocking of suburbanites, I realize that's been done already, and I don't really mean to knock all suburbanites or put a negative spin on Jimaz's story. I just think it's weird not to know about Campus Martius. Not unusual, I realize, but I think it's a strange state of affairs. Can you see Long Islanders coming into Manhattan and saying "Gosh, look, honey, what a swell ice rink" outside of Rockefeller Center? Or "Wouldja get a look at Central Park?" I remember being new in town, and hearing Super Bowl commentators stress how much downtown had improved, how amazing it was, and so on. And much has transpired since.

Anyhoo, people like me gripe about the People Mover being a reflection of a ridiculous approach to walking and experiencing the world [[namely, avoid it at all costs), but the fact is I'm no gym rat, and I don't bike 20 miles at a stretch or anything. I'd get a nice afternoon's exercise out of hearing somebody tell me a bunch of interesting factoids about downtown and then biking up to New Center for some more interesting factoids, or to Bell Isle, or whatever. I don't imagine I'm the only one, either, who sort of can't bring himself to bike aimlessly or stare at a wall while pretending to climb stairs yet thinks they should find ways to exercise more. Different tours of different degrees of strenuousness could be designed, and it could conceivably work.

Well, there you go again. Somebody should do something. <sigh> ;-)

But part and parcel of what I am suggesting is that you make use of a lot of already existing infrastructure, like the existing tours and the existing [[presumed) bike club. Is there an existing biking in Michigan-type blog out there? Does anyone who knows their stuff a little bit want to invite that person on a quality D-bike ride so they can write and post pics about it, and enthuse some folks, and maybe follow up down the road with a mention of the bike-based tours? Or stick an ad in a biking magazine?

I generally favor making incremental changes at the margin of what you're doing over a wholesale new project because it's way easier to pull off and, in the aggregate, can contribute significantly as well.

http://tour-de-troit.com/ ...been going on for almost 10 years. thousands of riders every year. guess you didn't get the memo.

[fryar]

Hahaha, much deserved that. I sure didn't. It's a little different from what I was saying, but really, I'm just trying to save face.

[5thSFGP]

As long as potential and actual residents feel insecure, it all goes out the window. One only has to drive through Detroit on the expressways to understand the realization that Detroit as a viable and growing city is dead. New folks demand adequate services, security of their investments, and opportunities - none of which are presently offered by the city or its government. It will take generations before change is realized - if ever. My take on it is "will the last person please turn off the lights - assuming they've not been stolen".

[bdub77]

Is locking up more people the solution or is the solution to the problem getting more people NOT to offend in the first place by dealing with the rampant unemployment? I read this staggering statistic the other day...

further the US has more inmates per 100,000 people than Russia or China. It didn't break it down racially, but I doubt I'd lose money if I bet that 1-100 number is alot higher among detroit's predominantly black population.

the rest and a couple of others are at: http://www.economist.com/node/16636027

Prison sentences, no matter how draconian [[ crack vs. powder cocaine sentence disparity for one example) seems to make little difference on crime and apparently only serves to lock more people up at a ridiculous cost.

Great post, and well supported. Harsher prison sentences and locking more people just aren't the solution. If you want to combat crime, begin by addressing the reasons that make crime such an attractive option to people living in a city with sky high unemployment and few options as for how to feed themselves and put a roof over their head. Try to give some guidance and support to these kids who are growing up in single parent households, are dropping out of school, and as early as teenagers begin to feel like they have no real career options so they start selling drugs. Ask yourself why these kids are getting involved with gangs; perhaps a big reason is because membership in a gang gives these poor kids a sense of support and belonging that they aren't getting at home.

I think another issue that needs to be addressed is Detroit's pathetic lack of public transportation. And no, the People Mover "ie Detroit's Toy Train" doesn't count. Let's be honest, the metro Detroit area is practically untraversable without a car, unless you don't mind spending 2 - 3 hours each way to get to work on buses that don't always show up on time and are just generally too few and unreliable. In addition to being a burden on the people living in Detroit, it makes the city a less attractive place for tourists compared to say, New York or Chicago which have excellent public transportation which makes navigating them quite easy.

Some sort of light rail system along Woodward connect Detroit to the suburbs would be a good start, though it will be an uphill battle against lobbyists from the Big Three which don't want public transport to cut into their profit margin by giving people the option of not owning a car.

[fryar]

As long as potential and actual residents feel insecure, it all goes out the window. One only has to drive through Detroit on the expressways to understand the realization that Detroit as a viable and growing city is dead. New folks demand adequate services, security of their investments, and opportunities - none of which are presently offered by the city or its government. It will take generations before change is realized - if ever. My take on it is "will the last person please turn off the lights - assuming they've not been stolen".

Yeah, no doubt, security/policing issues are very important, and what with the media attention that gets [[see recent Black Flight hits Detroit thread), it's really a key element.

But I do think you're taking it too far. Too much has been invested in Detroit's downtown area already, and Detroit as the regional center is too crucial, for the lights to be turned off. Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying, and it totally applies to issues like getting people to buy a home in Detroit instead of in a suburb. I don't have an immediate fix for that, naturally. By the same token, there was a thread recently in which it was pointed out that downtown rental units are in high demand [[specifically, that the Washington Square Apartments/former Trolley plaza units have the highest occupancy rates in recent memory, but it's probably fair to extrapolate). The demographics that are currently attracted to living there [[yes, yes, hipsters, boo ;-p) are going to stay, and people will continue to come downtown for various festivals, the auto show, Tigers games, and so on.

Maybe if GM implodes. But even then, do you really envision the feds putting up a chain link fence around what was once Detroit?

That's not to say the whole place is a gleaming gem, of course, but specific pieces of it aren't so bad. The parts that aren't gleaming gems, yeah, maybe you have to turn the lights out on those and shrink the city.

Don't take this the wrong way, but you kind of come to mind as a potential target for the efforts I described earlier to get people in the region to realize that a pleasant time can be had in the D, with Campus Martius and Riverwalk and so on. Do you bike? ;-)

[5thSFGP]

Until people - folks that have jobs, income, a sense of neighborhood responsibility can be convinced to return to Detroit's neighborhoods, the situation will never be reversed. It's a fine thing that there are citizens who are interested in renting/owning property in the downtown area, but the reality is that down town is bordered by a mostly vacant band of land that serves as a buffer or sorts. We have to move past that buffer in re-occupy the neighborhoods that really comprise the city proper. Frankly, I wouldn't do that unless I had at least a fire team in my pocket - and I'm certain I'm not alone.

[fryar]

Until people - folks that have jobs, income, a sense of neighborhood responsibility can be convinced to return to Detroit's neighborhoods, the situation will never be reversed. It's a fine thing that there are citizens who are interested in renting/owning property in the downtown area, but the reality is that down town is bordered by a mostly vacant band of land that serves as a buffer or sorts. We have to move past that buffer in re-occupy the neighborhoods that really comprise the city proper. Frankly, I wouldn't do that unless I had at least a fire team in my pocket - and I'm certain I'm not alone.

Yeah, ok, fair enough. I just don't think we're at the point where we shrug our shoulders and turn out the lights; quite the contrary, downtown has gotten nicer, midtown and the area in between will really benefit from the proposed light rail line that doesn't seem to have lost traction, though it is of course many years delayed, and there are individual neighborhoods that are doing fine, aside from the fact that their services aren't super because of abandonment elsewhere. I have no problem with your position at all, it's totally legitimate, I'm just being nitpicky about you rushing into giving up on the place as a whole instead of being targeted about it.

To some extent I agree, and think shrinking the city out of places where we might as well acknowldge that the lights are basically off is making the best of an unfortunate reality.

[iheartthed]

Iheartthed, there are not too many people who would be willing to move to Detroit and then throw their children into the DPS [[but for a few schools). Parents will not move to a city where their kids can't get a god education [[see the exodus of DPS kids to the 'burb schools as an example).

Maybe you wouldn't send your kids there... And that's fair. But I don't know of many major cities in the US with stellar public schools systems. It's a red herring to argument to point at the schools and say that is a major hinderance to Detroit being an attractive city.

[oladub]

In 2007, Detroit led the nation's fifty largest cities in the percentage of unwed mothers with 71% of it's births of all races being to unwed mothers. We know where that goes; to a higher percentage of household poverty, higher dropout rates, higher crime, and a drain on public services. I don't claim to know what to do about that. Perhaps, couples who marry and stay together to nurture their family should be relatively better rewarded. Where are all this MIA fathers anyway? What are they doing that is so much more important than taking care of their own children?

[canuck]

I think the D has somewhat hit bottom. It took a while for non-Detroiters to realize it had gotten that far, I mean there is a sense that a turnaround is in effect. The planning for a new city needing to be reinvented, will come about if Washington decides that the homefront is maybe more important than dissipating resources on military dominance in faraway places. Americans may resist the idea of govt intervention, but if business is encouraged to develop solutions for urban renewal, developing new technologies in streetlighting, rapid transit, water/sewer systems etc... then the investment will be well worth it. Detroit is not just a story of bad mistakes. It is a city with a painful set of circumstances dealt a worse blow than other towns. It will find a path to renewal.

[DetroitDad]

The journalists are here documenting, CNN and Fox is watching and reporting our fall, the government considers us the canary to keep an eye on, and Hollywood is in town on our streets....lights, camera, and... ACTION!!!!

What have you done to change things today? Do your posts here outnumber actions in the real world?

[fryar]

...couldn't we have bike tours in addition to the walking tours and the Segway tours?

http://wheelhousedetroit.com/ <flashes sheepish grin>

It will find a path to renewal.

I still think it already has. Many neighborhoods are continuing a downhill slide, but I precisely think we're beyond the point of truly considering turning the lights out, the bottoming out point. Downtown [[Tigers and Lions and Foxes, oh my), Midtown, Riverfront, M1, the Ann Arbor train. Look at the Detroit Rises tour, all of that stuff is 5-10 years old, and those are just the big-ticket items, it shows Campus Martius, but not the adjacent Cadillac Square Park [[that really wide glorified median that goes down Cadillac Square for two blocks from Campus Martius in the direction of Millender) or the harmonie park/paradise valley plaza [[park?). Cadillac Square Park, it's no comparison at all to the overgrown median that was in place there back in 2005, a vast improvement. Does my memory fail me, or did they start doing that in 2008-ish with the Woodward medians as well. Downtown has had a real flurry of activity, and it is nice now. Sure, the budget's messed up, the services are underdelivered, and everything's going to hell in a handbasket, but don't act like it didn't used to be like this:




Those two images are misappropriated from Lowell's 1992 flover over Detroit tour/webisode, at http://www.detroityes.com/webisodes/...FlyOver/01.htm. It's worth looking at in some ways, for perspective, because it's not pics of anything in particular, it looks like Lowell just took pics of things he found interesting, the connecting theme being that he was in a small plane that day. So the pics have a certain randomness. You can see depopulated blocks even back then, in the neighborhoods, but lets go back to downtown and the riverfront.
I recently referenced this on another thread as well, but look at that sea of parking lots around the RenCen, and the decrepit area along the river. Just makes you scratch your head and ask who's in charge of this ridiculousness. I mean, does that look a great place to live, work and play, with that sea of parking lots? And think about how nice it is now, relative to that. Riverwalk is pleasant. Campus Martius is pleasant. The little touches, like those Woodward medians are pleasant. There's a satisfactory amount of nightlife, maybe even more at this point [[or less, I have missed this current downturn's effects, but that's temporary). It's not yet complete, in fact, the bookstore where you pick up your Sunday Times on the way to a pleasant brunch in or around Campus Martius has closed, but the infrastructure is there now, and clearly that was the hardest part, changing the overall city-scape, I mean, look at that shameful schitt in 1992. The Paris of the Midwest? Hah! Maybe the powers that be just had their collective head so far up their collective rear at that point and for decades prior that nobody figured it out until Seinfeld and Friends hit the airwaves big-time later that decade? What about private investment, did they have things like that Oyster Bar back then, hidden behind a sea of parking lots? It's hard to imagine, since who would be walking there to eat. In any event, those battles have by now been fought and won, and they're the key. Downtown's not fully "there" yet, but it is real unique in this area for pleasant urban living. The economy just sucks and *a lot* of people are just now finding out about Campus Martius.
The neighborhoods, many of them, were going to pale in comparison to what the suburbs had and have to offer. If you want to live in a house with a yard, are independent/not tied down, and have some resources, what is so attractive about those neighborhoods 20 years ago? Urban flight would continue, I mean, no kidding. But in downtown, you now have something real to offer that is a competitive advantage for Detroit, urban living [[apartment-style, with a retail or dining establishment on the ground floor, a dorm for grown ups minus the RA in the middle of a big old fun campus for grown ups).And you didn't then, all you had was inferiority vis-a-vis the suburbs.
It's an easy win for Detroit, this urban living thing. Still leaves all of the other problems, sure, and it's not complete yet. But mountains have been moved to get us here, this is a strong candidate for a win, and it can anchor additional development once it gets rolling.

[fryar]

Fountain View 2000: A Town Center with Residential in the City of Detroit.

Longtime readers of this forum and Lowell may realize I got this from an old thread linked to by the 1992 flyover webisode linked to above, but: What about changing the zoning and otherwise preparing the ground for the building of a Town Center somewhere in the city? Lowell commented in that old thread that he thought Fountain View in Novi might have benefited from having some residential units above the stores, sort of the way old commercial buildings in Detroit have apartments on top. I mean, the land's cheap, there are water mains and such in place, you can have some private security, it could be nice, and you could find somebody to rent those apartments.

By Fountain View 2000, I mean a revised version that learns from the original's mistakes, not a true knock off. It's a random idea for the neighborhoods, but I wonder if it might work in the right circumstances.

[ghettopalmetto]

Fountain View 2000: A Town Center with Residential in the City of Detroit.

Longtime readers of this forum and Lowell may realize I got this from an old thread linked to by the 1992 flyover webisode linked to above, but: What about changing the zoning and otherwise preparing the ground for the building of a Town Center somewhere in the city? Lowell commented in that old thread that he thought Fountain View in Novi might have benefited from having some residential units above the stores, sort of the way old commercial buildings in Detroit have apartments on top.

They used to call those things "neighborhoods".

[fryar]

I know, and I don't particularly like most Town Centers, ie inside out malls to boot. But it's a novel idea, ironically.

[BrushStart]

It's an easy win for Detroit, this urban living thing. Still leaves all of the other problems, sure, and it's not complete yet. But mountains have been moved to get us here, this is a strong candidate for a win, and it can anchor additional development once it gets rolling.

Excellent post. Convincing me to live to in the downtown Detroit of 1992 would have been an uphill battle. Today, it would take no convincing whatsoever.