Spat over Belle Isle parking spot leads to gunfire

**PlymouthRes** · August-10-10, 10:07 AM

bailey-

I travel all over the city and region and volunteer my time in some pretty rough areas of town. The times I've had to draw my weapon mainly consisted of incidents where peolpe that I felt were a threat to me or my family were getting between us as we moved along. It happened three times around the Old Shelighlie [[sp?) bar, cutting through the alley between the parking lot and the bar. It even happened once even at Cobo, as I had sent my family on ahead of me and they were being accosted by a very belligerent and angry person when I approached. He changed his attitude immediately after staring down the barrel of my 10mm and the threat that I percieved was averted.

Also, when we owned a pool business, I was in and around the city a lot with money, which almost always makes you a target in my opinion. I felt that the situation elevated itself to a "black" threat and drawing or just hiking up my shirt [[in some cases) proved enough of a deterrent to assuage the situation.

Lastly, I served as a reserve cop in the 15th for a brief period. Most of the time we were able to avert any armed confrontation, but there were a couple of times that it served as a deterrent enough to stop what was going on. I can honestly say that I am grateful that I never had to shoot when I drew, as most of the time the upper hand was gained by simply implying that the weapon would go off if they continued to escalate the situation.

As far as going to or not going to places in the city that I enjoy, the answer is no, I won't back down. The criminal element, in my opinion, needs to know that they can never ever tell who will be confronting them and whether they have a weapon or not is a strong deterrent to them even acting to begin with. Perhaps if more people understood this, the possibility that people would have bigger and better means to protect themselves would be enough of a deterrent to stop them.

Lord knows that you can not depend on the cops in this city to do that for you, as we have all clearly seen in the recent future and throughout the years. Sometimes we must make tough decisions, I guess, and that includes doing everything to protect yourselves from these ravenous thugs.

Res

**Melody** · August-10-10, 10:20 AM

I was on Belle Isle that day [[Sunday). It was packed!! I didn't hear any gunshots, but I wasn't hear the picnic area.

**mkhopper** · August-10-10, 10:37 AM

Training, laws, permit to carry, etc... it all means nothing if you don't have the maturity to understand the implications of what a gun does, or can do.

I mean, I don't know the individuals involved personally, but it's a good bet that the thought process was, "I'm mad. I have a gun. I will shoot the person I'm angry at. Problem at this moment in time is solved."
"And if I kill someone, meh, whatever. I got what I wanted. And hey, it will give me status in prison where many of my friends already are. Plus prison is probably an upgrade to my current living conditions anyway, so yeah, I don't care."

**PlymouthRes** · August-10-10, 10:42 AM

Awesome, mk, and spot-on.

**pffft** · August-10-10, 10:48 AM

That being said, I have to wonder if their desire to carry so blatantly in such a non-threating environment as A,B & E is a wise move on the gun right advocates part.

Bingo. By posturing so aggressively with their guns at a family event like Arts Beats & Eats, the gun advocates are going to look a little nutty.

**detmsp** · August-10-10, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by PlymouthRes

pfft-

Your post in regard to Arts, Beats and Eats takes it to the extreme a bit, doesn't it? Can you provide us with any examples to back your theory, or is that simply a flippant way of retorting without some facts? I have never even remotely heard of the scenario you are suggesting occuring over such a trival matter as being jostled by someone in a crowd.

Yeah, no one would pull a gun over something so trivial... But now that I think about it, I do think I once heard a story about some guy at Belle Isle who shot someone over something really trivial... I can't remember what it was... maybe a parking spot? Nah, I must be remembering the story wrong. That would never happen

**PlymouthRes** · August-10-10, 11:23 AM

detmsp-

Two different scenarios, dude. Nice try, though. This is why these types of threads go so askew. People can't find facts to back their assertions, so they resort to these kind of comparisions to try to support their point of view.

The guy on Belle Isle and that situation is the topic of this thread, anyway. I was just trying to make a comparison of the Belle Isle incident and A, B and E, as the one poster brought it up. I don't consider ANYTHING that goes on at Belle Isle to be even similar to the arts festivals and I think on that you will agree. But I may be wrong about you, I don't really know.

Jostling someone at a fair for simply bumping them in a crowded environment such as that is no comparison to the situation that occurs almost weekly [[at least recently) at Belle Isle. Give me a break!

Res

**pffft** · August-10-10, 11:36 AM

Two people fight over a parking space on Belle Isle, a gun is drawn and someone's shot.
Two people argue because a man was stomping on his brakes, making the guy behind him stop too, so a gun is drawn and someone is shot in Farmington Hills.

There are lots of trivial incidents that people overreact to and become dangerous without guns. Add guns to the equation and you'd better hit the ground. Even some trained military and police go off the rails with guns occasionally, so if every Joe Sixpack is carrying and has backup for when he gets into a beef, look out. What gun advocates will find is that, while most people aren't for banning guns, pushing this open carry business will cause a backlash. Most people do not want to return to the days of Dodge City.

**Bcscott** · August-10-10, 01:17 PM

With so many crazy, irratic people around I'm glad I carry a Glock .40 everywhere I go. I'll bet all the idealistic, "guns are bad, I'd never own one" BS goes right out the window when you're threatened by some lunatic.

pffft-

What do you consider "aggressive posturing" when it comes to guns? Because if it includes properly holstering in plain sight, the Michigan state Constitution doesn't have a problem with it. Michigan is a traditional open carry state. In fact, one doesn't even need a permit to open carry in public. Would you be offended by a little old lady walking in the park with a .38 on her hip?

**Detroitnerd** · August-10-10, 01:32 PM

Oh, jesus. Is this gonna become a gun-control debate? Yeah, I'm sure this is the thread and place and time that we're finally going to all agree on this issue. Pffft. Yeah, right...

I don't go as far as, say, folks like Clayton E. Cramer, but I do think it's interesting that "gun control" is often about taking firearms away from irresponsible, inner-city minorities and putting them back where they are safest -- in the hands of a responsible, white 13-year-old out in West Branch.

**pffft** · August-10-10, 02:17 PM

The thread is about someone who clearly shouldn't have been waving a gun around on Belle Isle, so inevitably it's going to turn to gun laws.
I think "open carry" is ridiculous anywhere outside the Wild West, makes it look like the holstered fella is over-compensating for something, and as a state we need to move beyond such a Neanderthal image.

**Detroitej72** · August-10-10, 02:24 PM

At least the cops are stopping the illegal swimmers, who clearly are dangerous and leaving these irresponsible gun owners alone.

**Bcscott** · August-10-10, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by pffft

I think "open carry" is ridiculous anywhere outside the Wild West, makes it look like the holstered fella is over-compensating for something, and as a state we need to move beyond such a Neanderthal image.

Well, you're more than welcome to think open carry is ridiculous but its legal in 42 out of 50 states. So, its' actually the non "Neanderthals" who are in the paltry minorty.

**warsaw7** · August-10-10, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by PlymouthRes

pfft-

Your post in regard to Arts, Beats and Eats takes it to the extreme a bit, doesn't it? Can you provide us with any examples to back your theory, or is that simply a flippant way of retorting without some facts? I have never even remotely heard of the scenario you are suggesting occuring over such a trival matter as being jostled by someone in a crowd.

Res

Not a problem, refer to the post you are commenting on, someone got shot because another person stole their parking place. If you ask me I would rather someone steal my parking place then get mustard sprayed all over my shirt..........

**canuck** · August-10-10, 09:07 PM

Super soakers should be mandatory on weekend visits to Belle Isle. Except in january and February.
Ever notice how nobody says"freeze!" on cop shows anymore?

**mwilbert** · August-10-10, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by Bcscott

Well, you're more than welcome to think open carry is ridiculous but its legal in 42 out of 50 states. So, its' actually the non "Neanderthals" who are in the paltry minorty.

It is legal to wear a rainbow wig and a big red nose in all 50 states. That doesn't mean it isn't ridiculous.

**PlymouthRes** · August-11-10, 09:41 AM

I can certainly appreciate the opinions expressed on both sides here, but I think that the people agruing against people wishing to express their Second Amendment rights are a bit off base. The situations and scenarios expressed by those who are paranoid of people being legally armed and out on the streets have provided some good reading, but nothing substantative to the argument that hasn't been heard before. I certainly hope that their rose colored glasses look at life here in the state of Michigan doesn't provide a source of "victims" due to their passivity in the protection of their person or their families.

As I treid to point out, stealing a parking space at the "zoo" that has become Belle Isle is a far cry from being bumped into in a crowd at an art fair. Even after trying to make that point, others seemed to try to assert their "fears" into the argument by making some loose attempt at drawing a parallel of the two incidences. There is none, but go ahead and try to tie the two together-it is a clear illustration of both your delusion and your attitude that you always need to be right or have the last say in what others do with their lives.

If you don't like what has become the law in the state of Michigan, perhaps you should put as much effort into repealing the LAW THAT THE MAJORITY HAS VOTED FOR as you do in disrespecting others rights. The arguments that I have seen for not carrying weapons are weak and pathetic, while the law remains clear and strong. Until the day the law is repealed, I will chose to exercise my rights and say the hell with them about anyone who would chose to deny my rights.

I will admit that the first time I saw people openly carrying in Phoenix a few years back, I was totally taken aback, as the citizens of that city have no problem exercising their Constitutional rights, and to the benefit of the general public. Black, white, Latino and other cultures all had weapons on their sides, and, I beleive if you look at the statistics, you will find that their murder rates are SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER than Detroit by a long shot. There are instances of violent crime that occur there, for sure, but the per capita rate of gun crime is much, much lower even with their rampant immigration problem.

I guess out there people have refused to become the victim, and, by doing so, have resorted to exercising their rights to protect themselves. I did not see it as a detrement in any way to their style of life, and it in no way resembled the "wild west" as some have alluded to who have probably never witnessed it. That kind of terminiology applied to this argument does nothing but drive the two ends further apart, and underscores the fears that people have over this issue, wheter true or not. I am sorry you feel unnerved about some exercising their legal right, but that is the same ideology applied in many of the arguments I see presented here when the minority sees that their opinion is held at such a low value by the majority that their very being is threatened by it.

I certainly hope that those who are gun proponents are not the victims of violent crime because they simply were afraid to exercise the right to protect themselves, but the inevitability of that happening because they refuse to see the truth of the matter increases their odds of subjectivity.

The bottom line is that since it is legal I will continue to exercise my rights to carry, openly or concealed, in the hope that I can go anwhere freely and not fear for my life, as this city and the surrounding region have become a cesspool of people who feel that they can carry guns ILLEGALLY and use them at their liesure, as illustrated by the ongoing spate of foolish violence that exists.

Res

**Bcscott** · August-11-10, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

It is legal to wear a rainbow wig and a big red nose in all 50 states. That doesn't mean it isn't ridiculous.

And the straw man of the day award goes to.........mwilbert, congratulations.

**jackie5275** · August-11-10, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by PlymouthRes

As I treid to point out, stealing a parking space at the "zoo" that has become Belle Isle is a far cry from being bumped into in a crowd at an art fair. Even after trying to make that point, others seemed to try to assert their "fears" into the argument by making some loose attempt at drawing a parallel of the two incidences. There is none, but go ahead and try to tie the two together-it is a clear illustration of both your delusion and your attitude that you always need to be right or have the last say in what others do with their lives.

I have no delusions. I'm not one that has to be right or tell others what to do as you have called some of the other posters in this thread. However, you seem to be taking the attitude that stealing a parking spot at Belle Isle is more inflammatory and violence producing to a person than being bumped into at A.B.E. I think you're wrong. I think either incident can set someone off depending on the person. I was at Dearborn Homecoming this weekend, which is supposed to be a casual, family friendly event similar to A.B.E that attracts big crowds. I witnessed a guy bump a girl and step on her foot in the process. The girl's boyfriend immediately went after him with an "How dare you hurt my woman!" attitude. It escalated into a huge face in face shouting match with a number of people gathered around watching to see when the fists would start flying and almost turned into such a fight had security not separated the two in time.
I think that some posters are saying that anything can set anybody off at anytime. If that person has a gun on them either being carried legally or illegaly, can make the equation that much more dangerous because just don't know how that person will react.

**PlymouthRes** · August-11-10, 10:57 AM

Jackie5275-

I don't see where you were ever involved in the numerous posts that have composed this thread, and I find it amusing that you have taken a stance that I was somehow offending you in any way in regard to my posts. It is unfortunate that you witnessed this particular incident at the Dearborn Homecoming but the analogy is a bit off base, too, as it didn't involve guns, either legal or illegal, nor did it involve people openly or concealed carrying AT ALL. The result was a fist fight, likely induced by too much revalry, and has very little to do with this conversation due to the fact that we discussing someone getting shot ultimately, not getting their ass beat.

I am glad that you are trying to express your opinion, but you seem to jump to a few conclusions and do not have what I believe is a majority opinion in any way, considering a majority of the people in this state determined the law on this issue quite some time ago.

Belle Isle is a zoo with animals roaming seeking to devour the weak, as I have witnessed MANY times in the recent past. Perhaps you wish to minimalize my observations, but I am entitled to my opinion just like you. I quote this having been said by you:

"I think that some posters are saying that anything can set anybody off at anytime. If that person has a gun on them either being carried legally or illegaly, can make the equation that much more dangerous because just don't know how that person will react."

I disagree with your assertion, and contend that people WHO ARE TRAINED CORRECTLY [[as I have said about three times if you had cared to actually read all of my posts) are far less likely to resort to the very final act of using their weapon and instead try a myriad of other ways that good training would teach you to assuage the angry persons state of mind. At 6' 2" and 220lbs., I would rather take my chances beating someones ass than killing them, but, if they have a weapon, I would like to be equally prepared to confront that threat as well, which a LEGAL CPL allows you to do.

I am sorry to see that you have the opinion you do and hope that one day your pollyanna attitude about the reality of visiting Belle Isle or any other event that involves the people of this region doesn't make you a victim rather than a survivor. Until then, keep up the arguments for "your side" and I will continue with mine. Please orgaize some kind of movement, if you feel so righteous, to overturn the current laws as vociforously as you have defended your opinion that I am wrong. Hopefully the honest candor expressed by these types of threads will prevail against the bullshit that ocassionally rears it's ugly head in discussing such sensitive topics.

Res

**pffft** · August-11-10, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by jackie5275

I have no delusions. I'm not one that has to be right or tell others what to do as you have called some of the other posters in this thread. However, you seem to be taking the attitude that stealing a parking spot at Belle Isle is more inflammatory and violence producing to a person than being bumped into at A.B.E. I think you're wrong. I think either incident can set someone off depending on the person. I was at Dearborn Homecoming this weekend, which is supposed to be a casual, family friendly event similar to A.B.E that attracts big crowds. I witnessed a guy bump a girl and step on her foot in the process. The girl's boyfriend immediately went after him with an "How dare you hurt my woman!" attitude. It escalated into a huge face in face shouting match with a number of people gathered around watching to see when the fists would start flying and almost turned into such a fight had security not separated the two in time.
I think that some posters are saying that anything can set anybody off at anytime. If that person has a gun on them either being carried legally or illegaly, can make the equation that much more dangerous because just don't know how that person will react.

Yes, exactly.
Plymouthres, the point Jackie brings up is absolutely germane to this discussion, that bumping incidents lead to violence all the time, and had both sides of the Dearborn altercation been "legally armed," it would have been a gunfight beyond anyone's wildest dreams. Most of us don't want to live like that.

**PlymouthRes** · August-11-10, 12:32 PM

pffft-

I see both your and her point, but I must respectfully disagree. To paint everyone who is carrying legally with such a broad brush is just a bit of a stretch, as I was trying to point out. Many have carried legally without ever having to use their weapon, and I find it a bit outrageous that you make such a jump to your statement that:

"it would have been a gunfight beyond anyone's wildest dreams"

Are you clarvoyiant, or just asserting your opinion? Under what assumptions do you make these statements, aside from the topic of this thread and the recent road rage incident, or are you just guessing?

That is just your opinion, and I understand that you have a problem with people enjoying the rights to which we have all been endowed.

Again, your argument shouldn't be with me, rather, if you have such strong feelings toward the subject, with the legislature.

I do understand your "uncomfortability" with seeing people walking around armed [[are they legal, have they been ADEQUATELY trained, etc.) and the recent incidences that have occured would certainly heighten your sensitivity to those issues. However, I remind you that these are specific incidences that far outweigh the norm, so I was just trying to keep it real with a balanced discussion on the topic.

Again, I state that from what I have witnessed, amongst some the inhabitants that I have encountered at Belle Isle recently, people there in the possession of a butter knife or even a sharp stick would qualify as highly dangerous to me. I guess that the type of "partying" people there do not descriminate in who they threaten, unlike the other venues the zoo is being compared to. I would not possess the same level of hesitation going to the many fairs and other family venues that exist around the region, and to make such an analogous connection as to compare the two is a bit dishonest.

I have witnessed many of the same incidents as described by Jackie5275 at both suburban and inner city venues, where no one has guns, legal or illegal, so rage is not just specific to those two places, as I am sure you will agree. Both parties beat each other bloody, too, and in one case I read that the beating I witnessed resulted later in the death of one of the participants. All that with just his hands and feet, no weapons!

That was the intention and contention of my rebuttal all along.

Thanks for the discourse.

Res

**Johnlodge** · August-11-10, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Oh, jesus. Is this gonna become a gun-control debate? Yeah, I'm sure this is the thread and place and time that we're finally going to all agree on this issue. Pffft. Yeah, right...

What do you mean? We've already completely solved race relations and started a new era of regional cooperation on this forum [[there's never anymore city vs. suburb arguing!). We can't solve the gun debate, and what the heck, abortion debate, as well?

**Detroitej72** · August-11-10, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by PlymouthRes

To paint everyone who is carrying legally with such a broad brush is just a bit of a stretch, as I was trying to point out..

I agree, so why are you continuously doing just that by referring to Belle Isle and the people who frequent it "the zoo"?

Originally Posted by PlymouthRes

Again, I state that from what I have witnessed, amongst the inhabitants that I have encountered at Belle Isle recently, people there in the possession of a butter knife or even a sharp stick would qualify as highly dangerous to me. I guess that the type of "partying" people there do not descriminate in who they threaten, unlike the other venues the zoo is being compared to.

I've gone walking on The Island the past two days and encountered many folks out, walking their dogs, swimming, picnicking, playing ball and generally enjoying themselves without so much as a rock being thrown. I guess you might want to watch that broad brush you speak of, since you too appear to be holding one.

**PlymouthRes** · August-11-10, 01:46 PM

Detroitej72-

Reality sucks but should be stated in every coversation of this magnitude. I realize that this is a sensitive topic, but the reality is what it is and I won't make excuse for the element that takes over as darkness approaches.

No, I don't feel that I have painted with a broad brush, although I certainly can see where people who staunchly defend the behavior on the Isle would think that. As for saying the place is a zoo, perhaps it is harsh but maybe you haven't had the same experience that I had so I guess you feel justifyed in slamming my usage of that term. I happen to think it is a pretty apt description.

I have had the unfortunate experience of being "trapped", so to speak, in the eastern loop of the Isle in the early evening and twilight hours while just trying to get out of there. After the Dossin Great Lakes event held by the Historical Society for their volunteers there in early June, I had to drive across the grass in one instance to get away from a couple of people that insisted on continually assailing my wife and I for "being on their island" while we were sitting in a traffic jam. By the way, even though I had my weapon in my possession, I didn't feel it was enough of a threat to act in any way other than to just keep moving and try to ignore them and get out of there. It was clear to me that those type of folks far outnumbered those who would have welcomed us.

In defense of the Isle, I will say that I had a great time at the Forum picnic, which was held DURING THE DAY, along with a rather large but respectful party that was adjacent to us. I have also enjoyed driving the loop to introduce the place to people from out of town DURING THE DAY, but would never consider just cruising as dark approached or after dark, for that matter. The Isle, it seems, becomes inhabited by crotch-rocket riding idiots and people who have no regard for even basic rules of speed and decorum, so that is why I referenced it in such a matter.

Perhaps even you can agree that it becomes quite a chore to enjoy the place when people are doing 50 miles an hour in a 25 zone and guys on bikes are doing standies and stoppies all over the place. People wander into the roadway continously, which I personally feel is both disrespectful and dangerous. It is quite out of control, in my opinion, and if the powers that be want to provide a safe, family friendly atmosphere, then they need to take immediate action to curtail that shit.

If you don't understand those points and my explanation of them, then I guess that I will just agree to disagree with you. That is how normal disourse goes and I certainly respect your opinion, even if I don't agree with it.

Res