The Fate of the Detroit People Mover

[Gistok]

LtDave, to answer your question... lets see... the Times Square, Michigan, Fort Cass, Joe Louis, Financial Center, RenCen, Bricktown, and Cadillac Center and Broadway stations are standalone, although the RenCen and Joe Louis stations have catwalks to nearby buildings. The Cobo and Millender Center stations go thru buildings. The Greektown and GCP stations are attached to buildings. But when the David Whitney Building closed a while back, the city added an external entrance to the GCP station. But the 2nd floor [[of the 4 story David Whitney lobby) entrance to that station is merely closed off. I'm sure it will reopen when the building is done.

Ltdave... that pretty much covers it...

[cramerro]

LtDave, to answer your question... lets see... the Times Square, Michigan, Fort Cass, Joe Louis, Financial Center, RenCen, Bricktown, and Cadillac Center and Broadway stations are standalone, although the RenCen and Joe Louis stations have catwalks to nearby buildings. The Cobo and Millender Center stations go thru buildings. The Greektown and GCP stations are attached to buildings. But when the David Whitney Building closed a while back, the city added an external entrance to the GCP station. But the 2nd floor [[of the 4 story David Whitney lobby) entrance to that station is merely closed off. I'm sure it will reopen when the building is done.

Ltdave... that pretty much covers it...

To add to this, the Cadillac Square station is connected to the Compuware garage elevator lobby via an enclosed glass hallway from the PM lobby. Those who are willing can walk from CM to the PM through the compuware building, across farmer under the overpass to the parking deck, and into the deck without being fully exposed to the elements. It's a shortcut I use sometimes getting from the Financial District to Greektown without having to take the super long way around from the FD to Greektown via Joe Louis, etc. Even the long way around route is the same as a brisk walk to the Greektown Station in my experience. Easy to track the trains when I can just look for Huel Perkins rolling by above .

[Danny]

Well folks, the Soul Train to nowhere is derailled!

[Parkguy]

The PM was never supposed to be a single transportation system downtown. It was supposed to be the end loop of a REGIONAL transit system administered under SEMTA, the forerunner of SMART. Heavy rail trains used to run up the Woodward/I-75 corridor to the old yards east of the RenCen, and these were supposed to eventually give way to light rail. I'm shouting now: THIS WAS NOT EVEN A CITY PROJECT. IT WAS NOT COLEMAN YOUNG'S PROJECT. The city took over the half-built system that SEMTA was going to walk away from. The city appealed to the federal government, and took over the project with enough federal money to complete it. The idea was that commuters would take the train into the city, then transfer to the PM to get to their final destination. That made all kinds of sense. It still makes sense for visitors, festival-goers, and Red Wings fans going to the game after dinner at Greektown. And up until recently, the PM was on every list of extensive rail transit systems around the country. New systems in the last five or six years have eclipsed it, of course, so it may need to be re-thought in light of new technologies and new paradigms. Most planners now agree that surface rail like streetcars make for better circulators.

[Scottathew]

It has not lived up to ridership expectations and does not travel a significant area.

It was supposed to link together other lines that never got built.

[canuck]

The PM was never supposed to be a single transportation system downtown. It was supposed to be the end loop of a REGIONAL transit system administered under SEMTA, the forerunner of SMART. Heavy rail trains used to run up the Woodward/I-75 corridor to the old yards east of the RenCen, and these were supposed to eventually give way to light rail. I'm shouting now: THIS WAS NOT EVEN A CITY PROJECT. IT WAS NOT COLEMAN YOUNG'S PROJECT. The city took over the half-built system that SEMTA was going to walk away from. The city appealed to the federal government, and took over the project with enough federal money to complete it. The idea was that commuters would take the train into the city, then transfer to the PM to get to their final destination. That made all kinds of sense. It still makes sense for visitors, festival-goers, and Red Wings fans going to the game after dinner at Greektown. And up until recently, the PM was on every list of extensive rail transit systems around the country. New systems in the last five or six years have eclipsed it, of course, so it may need to be re-thought in light of new technologies and new paradigms. Most planners now agree that surface rail like streetcars make for better circulators.

When you consider the number of shocks Detroit had to absorb over the past 50 years, up to the demolition of Hudson's which was a great congregator, The PM was one attempt at creating circulation. It may be that Detroit's attempt at answering other cities' urban transit in downtown was underwhelming, but it can be useful in a future system integration with streetrail. We shouldnt dismiss something that provides elevated views of downtown and travels to all major points in the CBD. The importance of building on what is there should be a goal in itself. Enough destruction of useful things has happened that we can learn from.

The PM was also to my mind a smart answer to the underground cities in Montreal and Toronto and or skyways and pedways in Chicago and Minneapolis. There is plenty of potential in Detroit's massive downtown especially now that folks like Gilbert are waking up investors to the possibilities.

[R8RBOB]

When you consider the number of shocks Detroit had to absorb over the past 50 years, up to the demolition of Hudson's which was a great congregator, The PM was one attempt at creating circulation. It may be that Detroit's attempt at answering other cities' urban transit in downtown was underwhelming, but it can be useful in a future system integration with streetrail. We shouldnt dismiss something that provides elevated views of downtown and travels to all major points in the CBD. The importance of building on what is there should be a goal in itself. Enough destruction of useful things has happened that we can learn from.

The PM was also to my mind a smart answer to the underground cities in Montreal and Toronto and or skyways and pedways in Chicago and Minneapolis. There is plenty of potential in Detroit's massive downtown especially now that folks like Gilbert are waking up investors to the possibilities.

I for one don't want to see the People Mover shut down. With the M-1 Rail looming in the near future, it would be stupid to shut it down but let's not mince words here. The reason why the PM had the 50 cents fare since it opened in 1987 is the city leaders believe that if they were to raise the fare then suburbanites which make up the bulk of the ridership would balk on the system and it would fail because of debt.

As I stated in a previous post, the majority of Detroit's population don't gain any benefit from the People Mover circling downtown like they do with DDOT and I'm sure many would not want it shut down but seeing how Bing is giving Detroit his version of "death by a thousand cuts" and the bus system is in the gutter trying to save the People Mover would be a hard sell.

Next month they are going raise the fare to 75 cents but I think that the city should have a "special event" rate of $1.00 [[events like a Red Wings game or the Fireworks)

[mikeg19]

See, I wouldn't mind paying $1 or even $2 a ride. I don't use it on a daily basis, but that's why transit systems always have a special rate or card for frequent riders. So if I come down and use it 4-5 times a month, the city made $10 off me as opposed to $4-5. But say a person who works at the Ren Cen uses it daily, they could purchase a weekly or monthly prepaid card at a discount. I don't know what a good number on that would be, but you guys see what I'm getting at.

[Gistok]

I like some of your variable rate suggestions!! While I think that 75 cents is plenty for daily riders [[or cheaper if you tickets at bulk discount)... I think that like parking garages that go from $3 to $20 for game days... the PM should go to $2 on game days as well. Not a bad idea!

[Parkguy]

People are much more likely to have a dollar bill than two quarters in their pocket! I have read that parts for the cars are getting hard to get. That could be the deciding factor if true.

[ddaydetroit]

If all else fails they could do this http://www.lonelyplanet.com/usa/new-...858?affil=twit

[sycloneman]

If all else fails they could do this http://www.lonelyplanet.com/usa/new-...858?affil=twit

That would be awesome but I wonder if it is wide enough to use for such a purpose.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

That would be awesome but I wonder if it is wide enough to use for such a purpose.

The High Line Park in New York is wonderful, but there are a few reasons [[at least) that would make replicating it here problematic.

For the record, I ran a restaurant in New York immediately adjacent to the High Line. When the park opened, it brought in a huge amount of business to the neighborhood, and furthermore, that business was sustained, not just when it opened.

The reasons it would be problematic are several. FIrst, the PM track is MUCH narrower. The High Line, when it had a railroad [[it stopped running in 1980), it was large enough for 2 heavy-gauge rails at it's narrowist. That's more than twice the width of the PM. Plus, there are many places along the HL that had loading bays into warehouses, creating further outdoor space. With all that space, they have planted grass, trees, and flowers, and installed benches, artwork, and even a few places to grab a bite or drink. A PM-based trail would hardly be wide enough for just a walking path. In fact, it would need to be wide enough [[to comply with ADA) to have a wheelchair going in both directions. I am not sure that it is. If so, not by much.

The next big reason is money. The HL has so far cost more than $150M, and it has relatively high maintenance costs for a park. Keep in mind, even when fully complete [[the northern third of the highline will not open until the Hudson Yards development is complete- sometime in the next 10 years), it will only be half as long as the PM. In addition to the landscaping, there are substantial structural costs. I don't see a possible way of funding a conversion to a park, plus operating that park. Seriously, we are talking about a shortage of hundreds of thousands of dollars to operate the PM; where would tens of millions come from to convert it?

The last reason I think it would be difficult to replicate the HL's success here is a little touchy, but I'll say it anyway. The HL connected several areas that were ALREADY DESIRABLE and busy, which caused tourists to flock to the new park linking them. The Meatpacking District, West Chelsea art galleries, and Hudson River Park already had lots of visitors [[most of the users of the HL park are tourists, not nearby residents). Shifting downtown Detroit's existing tourists to a PM Park would not leave the park very busy.

A MUCH more money friendly option is to convert at-or-below grade railbeds [[a la the Dequindre Cut) into trails and parks. I have a dream of constructing the world's longest skating rink on the grass of the Dequindre Cut [[note: some places, such as Ottawa, have gigantic skating rinks, but they are built on Canals or inlets; I am talking about a free-standing manmade rink). Skating from one end to the other would be a blast.

I just hope they can find the money to keep the PM open. Raising the fare is justifiable, and I don't think will cause a major change in ridership. We'll see.

[Gistok]

Thanks Mikey... besides the unsuitability of the narrow track... it would not encourage street pedestrian traffic... something that downtown Detroit needs much more of!