The Fate of the Detroit People Mover

**iheartthed** · September-02-10, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by East Detroit

In Chicago, which many of you adore with a fetish [[and should probably move to), there is the subway spoke system and there is the downtown elevated loop. Somehow people manage to get off of one and onto the other without even the aid of elevators/escalators.

Then again, people in Chicago don't seem to hate themselves as much as we do. I think they call the elevated train something other than the "ColemanTram" or some other divisive moniker.

The difference in Chicago is that you don't have to exit the system to change from the subway to the elevated train... But then again you have that luxury when you build dedicated ROWs for your train lines......

**Rocko** · September-02-10, 08:42 PM

I think a lot of the future of the People Mover will depend on what kind of downtown circulation the new "light rail" will have for the Woodward, and hopefully other spoke road corridors. If the light rail makes a simple loop at the foot of Woodward near Hart Plaza or goes perhaps over to Griswold to make the loop, then the DPM will still have an important place in the transit system. Light rail riders can transfer onto the DPM [[for a free transfer, in my opinion) at either Grand Circus Park or Financial District. DPM can be used to shuttle riders to places like Michigan, Fort-Cass, Cobo,Greektown and RenCen which won't be near Light Rail lines or stations.

If a wider arc is planned for the light rail loop downtown, say, going over to Griswold and then Beaubian in the opposit direction, for example, more closely following the DPM loop, then the People Mover may lose it's place. Of course, the Light Rail may only have a couple downtown stations, whereas the DPM has 13.

This past weekend I showed friends of mine from New England and northern Michigan around Detroit by first riding a Diamond Jack tour, then going to dinner in Greektown by way of the People Mover. I have to say that they all enjoyed their "tour"/ride on the DPM very much, seeing the city from a elevated standpoint and getting a great view of some of the buildings and the River. While the DPM may never live up to its abbreviated expectations, I think it would be missed if it was demolished. You can always help support the future of DPM by riding it around yourself....numbers add up to $ and cents and that will look good on paper!

**Gistok** · September-02-10, 11:47 PM

After taking 6 bus loads of Germans and 2 bus loads of Hungarians around on the people mover over the last 8 years during bus tours of Detroit... you are correct the PM makes for a A++ tourist ride for out of towners. I bet that the Detroit Visitors Convention Bureau hypes it to market conventions to Detroit.

But the PM folks do need to get rid of that squeaking sound when it rounds curves... like fingernails on a chalkboard.

As expensive as the PM is to maintain... I'm hoping that when they finalize a design for the Woodward line... that that line should complement the PM, and not compete with it.

P.S. Rocko... a great place to show visitors to our city when your on the PM... is to get off at the Financial Center Station.... take them to the eastern edge of the platform... and show them an excellent view of the One Woodward Ave. [[former MichCon "Gas Building"). Visitors never fail to be impressed with the story about Minuru Yamasaki's 1963 "prototype" of the 1966 World Trade Center right here in Detroit. I usually talk about the image of the 7 story WTC ruin and mention that that image can be seen in the window patterns of the Detroit tower. Note: I'm not making light of the tragedy... but it's a topic that resonates worldwide... and the tour buses of Europeans that I've shown that building... they're absolutely fascinated by it and all seem to want to take photos.

**jjw** · September-03-10, 05:14 AM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

And I suppose you'd rather have downtown Detroit look like downtown Atlanta?

http://www.kunstler.com/Grunt_Atlanta%20Tour.html

The retail spaces aren't having difficulty because of the sheer oversupply of quality space available for small businesses. They're having difficulty because of the diffusion of office and residential tenants elsewhere in downtown, as well as their physical removal [[see Wintergarden) from the rest of the city.

A fine-grained network of retail spaces, constructed at human-scale, accessible from the STREET and contributing to pedestrian activity, is essential if downtown Detroit is to sustain any sort of economic rebirth.

Good video on Atlanta: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoVXoB6x3vM

**maxx** · September-03-10, 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by mallory

I'm all for keeping the DPM for nostalgia sake more than anything else. Plus, when I worked downtown, I used it qute often, depending on where I parked. I would offer this though: can someone grab a can of 3-in-1 and lube up the wheels a little? WOW is it loud inside, especially along the river.

I'm glad to hear that someone is actually using the DPM. It certainly brings one of the uglier aspects of a big city to Detroit when the D has few big city benefits. And the noise it makes really doesn't add to the enjoyment of the Jazz Festival.

**animatedmartian** · October-22-11, 06:20 PM

Possible shut down for December. [[bumped old thread rather than starting a new one, hope you don't mind)

**R8RBOB** · October-22-11, 11:52 PM

The Detroit People Mover in my opinion one of the stupidest ideas because it should have been link to a light rail system that serviced the city and suburbs. To have a transportation rail that only service the downtown area doesn't benefit me who lives on the northwest side. Now if there was a light-rail that I could take and it connected me to the downtown loop known as the People Mover then cool but I doubt Detroiters would shed a tear if the People Mover was to shut down.

**Gistok** · October-23-11, 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by R8RBOB

The Detroit People Mover in my opinion one of the stupidest ideas because it should have been link to a light rail system that serviced the city and suburbs. To have a transportation rail that only service the downtown area doesn't benefit me who lives on the northwest side. Now if there was a light-rail that I could take and it connected me to the downtown loop known as the People Mover then cool but I doubt Detroiters would shed a tear if the People Mover was to shut down.

No... but suburbanites visiting downtown for sports or other venues would be outraged!! Especially if you look for ways to avoid $20+ parking fees....

**313WX** · October-23-11, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

No... but suburbanites visiting downtown for sports or other venues would be outraged!! Especially if you look for ways to avoid $20+ parking fees....

Well, how about they try WALKING from destination to destination?

**animatedmartian** · October-23-11, 02:23 AM

Actually, more and more, I'm thinking it should be completed demolished and just replaced with the M1 rail with spur stops/a loop around downtown. Or have a ramp that connects M1 to DPM's tracks and just get rid of the organization that operates DPM and have the M1 group maintain it. Either way, it needs revenue from outside of downtown in order to be profitable.

**Wesley Mouch** · October-23-11, 04:25 AM

Originally Posted by French777

I heard the PM brings in 1 million dollars a year, yet cost about 7 million to operate.

And M-59 brings in ZERO million, and probably costs millions to operate.

So what's your point?

Infrastructure doesn't produce revenue. It enables creation of revenue by citizens.

**R8RBOB** · October-23-11, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

No... but suburbanites visiting downtown for sports or other venues would be outraged!! Especially if you look for ways to avoid $20+ parking fees....

Well, while suburbanites are able to drop in their 50 cents to have the luxury of riding through downtown to avoid paying $20 parking fees, the city have to find ways to pay for the system and as I said previously it doesn't benefit the city as a whole unless you travel to downtown and you want to be lazy.

**Chinman** · October-23-11, 10:34 AM

i personally think they should keep it. as said earlier, more people can park near any station and get to any popular venue except mid-town. consider this:
i live in town square co-ops [[lafayette & st.aubin), it is 7/8th of a mile to walk to greektown, then i can get on that station.

cadilac station: 250ft to ymca, 200ft to library

broadway station: 500ft to harmone park

park ave. station: 550ft to comerica entrance, 1250ft to ford field entrance, 1000ft to fox theatre.

mich. ave station: 250ft to book cadilac, 750ft to lafayette coney.

cobo station: for auto show work.

milender center station: 550 to city hall.

rencen station: 750ft to riverwalk

granted i have only been walkin the city for 2-1/2 months [[previously drove everywhere) and during bad weather i still will. it is nice to know i only have to walk 7/8ths of a mile to go to any of these venue's. i do not use it now to get to them because i just walk, but the scary winter storms are coming. i dont mind walking in the cold, just the blowing snow or torrential rains.

my 2 cents.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · October-23-11, 11:12 AM

If building a Detroit transit system from scratch, I would not have built the PM, but since the money has been spent [[and it would cost millions, I am sure, to tear down), it should be kept. While no transit solution for SE Michigan, it does effectively work to get around downtown once you are here. Detroit is a spread out city, with a spread out downtown. While not very many people use it during the workday, big events at Cobo, JLA, theatres, and several hotels would suffer if it wasn't there. Especially in the winter, and at big event times [[besides the auto show, the fireworks and various music festivals come to mind), a good chunk of people would fear either not getting parking or having to walk a great distance.

Ideally, when M1 rail comes online, they can make transferring to the PM fast and easy [[especially when the David Whitney Building is reopened, there will be an attractive, elevator entrace to the GCP station). As I posted before, a passcard system with free transfers would stimulate riership the most.

People always comment that very few people use the PM, relative to its capacity. But they are forgetting, I think, that very few people are visiting downtown, relative to its capacity. As the city has more residents, workers, and visitors over time, I think it will get busier.

**Gistok** · October-23-11, 12:03 PM

Good points Chinman and Mikey...

As for those who say walk... really that's the best response you have?? You build a system, you bitch that no one uses it... and then you bitch again because people that do use it are called lazy... talk about a logically bankrupt argument.

The PM gets people who are downtown to help them want to stay downtown. If you go downtown with a group of friends/family and are deck out for a night at the Fox et al... then do you think that the women in your party want to go traipsing around downtown in their heels? I prefer to NOT have my party of people get annoyed or harassed by panhandlers. I want to keep the downtown experience as pleasant as possible, and that includes paying less for the convenience of parking and taking the PM.

Once you get folks downtown... if they have to get into their car again because the distance between a show and dinner is too great to walk... then once they're in their car... the likelihood of staying downtown has just been diminished. That's likely one metric to the value of the PM that few have ever measured... it's value at keeping folks downtown.

As for ANY discussion about demo'ing the PM... pure folly. The Feds will want their $200+ million back, and the cost of demo-ing the entire project is very cost prohibitive anyway... the city just doesn't have the $50+ million it will likely take to remove it. I wonder how much it would cost to remove each and every one of those PM columns.. and the track between each one... $$$

If you like to walk around downtown from venue to venue... good for you... you're more than welcome to do so. I, however, prefer not to...

**313WX** · October-23-11, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

If you like to walk around downtown from venue to venue... good for you... you're more than welcome to do so. I, however, prefer not to...

That's fine, it was just a suggestion.

Many people in other cities amongst the same league as Detroit don't mind walking a few blocks [[and downtown Detroit is ONLY a few blocks wide) to their destination, even if they use mass transit. I didn't know that was such a crime to do here...then again, I forget this IS the MOTOR city!

**Gistok** · October-23-11, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

That's fine, it was just a suggestion.

Many people in other cities amongst the same league as Detroit don't mind walking a few blocks [[and downtown Detroit is ONLY a few blocks wide) to their destination, even if they use mass transit. I didn't know that was such a crime to do here...then again, I forget this IS the MOTOR city!

"ONLY a few blocks wide".... lol... well a little more than that according to Chinman... he's got the walking distances from PM stations down pat. WITH the PM it's still about a 1/2 mile walk [[roundtrip) to venues...

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · October-23-11, 12:33 PM

For most people, I think it is not a case of PM vs. walking. Sometimes you walk, sometimes you take the PM. Depends on weather, where you are versus where you are going, how much time you have, if you like to walk, etc. Sometimes you take your car. Methods of transportation aren't mutually exclusive.

**313WX** · October-23-11, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

"ONLY a few blocks wide".... lol... well a little more than that according to Chinman... he's got the walking distances from PM stations down pat. WITH the PM it's still about a 1/2 mile walk [[roundtrip) to venues...

A ROUNDTRIP 1/2 mile walk?

Heh, people in New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Boston, Philadelphia, etc. walk just as far if not further than that one way on average daily. This is in the cold, rain or snow in most cases, unless it's a truly massive blizzard or cold outbreak.

I could see if we were talking about maybe a mile-long walk one way, but the 1/2 mile walk both ways is literally just a few blocks one way.

Now if the reason people prefer not to walk the streets is because of how unpleasant it is to walk past all of the unappealing surface lots and abandoned structures, or the fear of getting harassed by the panhandlers and criminals, then MAYBE a point can be made. Just be honest and say that instead, stop with the taboos. But otherwise, no, it is pure laziness, granted that is the culture around here [[convenient parking and only having to walk no more than a few feet).

**bugs1739** · October-23-11, 02:15 PM

The People Mover should be dismantled and replaced with a elevated rail system with a loop system downtown and select lines will be subways. Like Chicago. Or build the Woodward Light Rail and have it connected to commuter rail. Either way.

**Gistok** · October-23-11, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

A ROUNDTRIP 1/2 mile walk?

Heh, people in New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Boston, Philadelphia, etc. walk just as far if not further than that one way on average daily. This is in the cold, rain or snow in most cases, unless it's a truly massive blizzard or cold outbreak.

I could see if we were talking about maybe a mile-long walk one way, but the 1/2 mile walk both ways is literally just a few blocks one way.

Now if the reason people prefer not to walk the streets is because of how unpleasant it is to walk past all of the unappealing surface lots and abandoned structures, or the fear of getting harassed by the panhandlers and criminals, then MAYBE a point can be made. Just be honest and say that instead, stop with the taboos. But otherwise, no, it is pure laziness, granted that is the culture around here [[convenient parking and only having to walk no more than a few feet).

Good lord are you still droning on about that... sorry I was too busy on this nice beautiful Sunday afternoon doing yard work... cutting the grass, edging, weed whacking, raking leaves... so I like to decide for myself what I choose to do with my time... Lazy... no, not necessarily... just selective on how I expend my energy.... but I'm not judgemental behind my keyboard about the lifestyle choices of others...

If someone likes to get out of their apartment building and go walk 6 blocks for a latte... then go for it... I have other things to expend my energy on... we all lead different lifestyles... I don't judge what or how others spend their time...

**mikeg19** · October-23-11, 04:12 PM

Simple enough. Raise the fare to $1.00 or $1.50, limit the hours of operation, and hopefully that'll offset the losses, as I don't know the exact financial figures. As a person who doesn't live in downtown, I use the PM when it's freezing cold out and don't feel like walking from Greektown to the Wings game. If it's nice out, I'm walking everywhere downtown. I think a lot of it has to do with the parking prices. Park at Greektown Casino for free, play some craps, and go out and do whatever. Or pay $20 at an Olympia lot and have to walk/pay for the PM as well. It does serve a purpose for people. Is it the best piece of mass transit for a city? Hell no. Does it do what it was meant to? Yes.

**animatedmartian** · October-23-11, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by mikeg19

Simple enough. Raise the fare to $1.00 or $1.50, limit the hours of operation, and hopefully that'll offset the losses, as I don't know the exact financial figures.

I like this plan a lot. Maybe even going as far as to limit usage only to major events going on like sports games and conventions going on at Cobo or the Ren Cen. No one will complain about the $1.50 fare if people can manage to save money on parking, gas, food, etc. It'd be interesting to see how the numbers actually line up in that scenario.

**Gistok** · October-23-11, 06:36 PM

I would not mind paying twice the new 75cent rate. However, do the people who maybe use it often... say on lunch hour, or after work? Do people who work downtown ever use it? I'm sure not everyone walks.

I was in the People Mover maintenance facility [[south of the Times Sq. Station) for an open house soon after it opened. And I have to say that it sure is a cavernous place. Originally it was built to house up to 100 PM cars. But as we all know, that was overkill, since the ridership never got so high for additional cars or expanded route.

I'm sure that it must cost quite a bit of overhead to keep that place functioning.

Also, with more buildings coming online to residential [[Broderick & Whitney for starters)... I would think that the ridership would increase somewhat. Although that still won't make a dent in the overhead.

I thought it would be cool to live in the David Whitney Building... get on the people mover without leaving the building [[I would assume that the inside entrance would be re-opened), and going either to Cobo/JLA/RenCen/Greektown without having to walk outside would be pretty nice in the cold weather months.

**Ltdave** · October-23-11, 07:23 PM

my wife and i were just downtown this weekend. we stayed at the Atheneum...

after checking in, we walked the 3 blocks to the riverwalk. took a few pictures [[ill post some up later) and then we jumped the train at the ren cen. we enjoy riding the PM [[we dont live anywhere NEAR downtown let alone detroit [[norther st. clair county) and people watching, and we got off at the stop near the tent city [[grand circus park?) and shot some more pictures...

we got back on and rode it to greektown, walked the block or so to Fishbones for lunch and then to the hotel...

we went to the Fox to see My Fair Lady by getting on the PM, riding it to the stop next to [[sort of) Commerica Park and walked the 3[[?) blocks to the theater and then we retraced those steps afterwards...

it reminded me of a stay we had in NYC where we walked to a subway station, rode it to broadway, saw a play and then returned in the same manner...

love it or hate it, it serves a purpose and like a lot of other comments, its a great tourist draw to an otherwise UN-touristy place on the map....

im just curious which stops are in long abandoned or empty buildings? not trying to be a smart ass, just dont know...