The Fate of the Detroit People Mover

[English]

Suddenly, I feel as if I'm on AtlantaYES...

[george_babbage]

I'm just sayin that when I go to a place like say, Philadelphia, I see restaurants and stores and squares, and people walking to their destinations. When I go to Atlanta, I see cars and parking lots and bunkers, and nothing that really intrigues me enough to walk down the block to see what else I can find.

But hey, don't let a few photographs get in the way of your pre-ordained definition of urban "success".

You know what's best for people, so why aren't they listening to you?

Philadelphia:
Population 1970: 1,948,609
Population 2009 [[est.): 1,547,901

Atlanta:
Population 1970: 496,973
Population 2009 [[est.): 537,958

[DetroitDad]

You know what's best for people, so why aren't they listening to you?

Philadelphia:
Population 1970: 1,948,609
Population 2009 [[est.): 1,547,901

Atlanta:
Population 1970: 496,973
Population 2009 [[est.): 537,958

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

The tragedy of the commons refers to a dilemma described in an influential article by that name written by Garrett Hardin and first published in the journal Science in 1968.[1] The article describes a situation in which multiple individuals, acting independently, and solely and rationally consulting their own self-interest, will ultimately deplete a shared limited resource even when it is clear that it is not in anyone's long-term interest for this to happen.
Hardin's Commons Theory is frequently cited to support the notion of sustainable development, meshing economic growth and environmental protection, and has had an effect on numerous current issues, including the debate over global warming.
Central to Hardin's article is an example [[first sketched in an 1833 pamphlet by William Forster Lloyd) of a hypothetical and simplified situation based on medieval land tenure in Europe, of herders sharing a common parcel of land, on which they are each entitled to let their cows graze. In Hardin's example, it is in each herder's interest to put the next [[and succeeding) cows he acquires onto the land, even if the carrying capacity of the common is exceeded and it is temporarily or permanently damaged for all as a result. The herder receives all of the benefits from an additional cow, while the damage to the common is shared by the entire group. If all herders make this individually rational economic decision, the common will be depleted or even destroyed to the detriment of all.
A similar dilemma of the commons had previously been discussed by agrarian reformers since the 18th century.[2] Hardin's predecessors used the alleged tragedy, as well as a variety of examples from the Greek Classics, to justify the enclosure movement. German historian Joachim Radkau sees Garrett Hardin's writings as having a different aim in that Hardin asks for a strict management of common goods via increased government involvement or/and international regulation bodies.[2]
Hardin's work has been criticised on the grounds of historical inaccuracy, and for failing to distinguish between common property and open access resources. Subsequent work by Elinor Ostrom and others suggest that using Hardin's work to argue for privatization of resources is an "overstatement" of the case.[3][4] Nonetheless, Ostrom recognizes that there are real problems, and even limited situations where the tragedy of the common applies to real-world resource management.[5]

[Trumpeteer]

Suddenly, I feel as if I'm on AtlantaYES...

Hey! How bout that People Mover??

[ghettopalmetto]

Sell the People Mover to Atlanta. They could use a parking lot shuttle.

[canuck]

Incredible as to totally ignoring factual statements about an area you both obviously know nothing about except for a slanted website with photos..WOW what a source as well as posibly having been to the local at some point looking for newstands. How about starting one about how evil "The Man" is and rant about that as well??

Please carry on this conversation amongst yourselves as you're the experts.

I didnt mention anything specific about Atlanta, I have never had the pleasure to visit it and yes there is a lot more to it than faceless brutish streetscapes. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. I was referring to parts of downtown Detroit and I may as well say downtown Montreal that repel human interaction whether it is chitchat on a street corner or a bike ride, whatever. In 1964 Place Bonaventure in Montreal, was built as an answer to Chicago's Merchandise Mart. It is a huge concrete structure and was lauded by many architects of the time for its minimalist bunkerlike imprint. 40 years later they had to put in windows because unlike the Mart it had only a few. And that is what happens when architecture is bad. You can look at the cost of overhauling the Ren Cen as the kind of money better spent on spreading amenities like the brand new park the Casino is building. Ugliness has a price tag that includes isolation, brutality and decay. Keep walking along concrete walls a block long or empty storefronts on nondescript plazas and if you think its OK then fine. I do think the people mover is important to keep because it is a step in the right direction and is not a huge expense. It is an important draw for tourism and provides multiple views of downtown. There is a lot more wasted on less important stuff like building other office towers in a depressed market...

[DetroitDad]

I got it! Open a moving Coney Island diner in one of the People Mover cars! Better yet, open an American Coney in one, and a Lafayette Coney in the other.

Tell me that isn't a great idea!

[ghettopalmetto]

Tear that schitt down!

[canuck]

I got it! Open a moving Coney Island diner in one of the People Mover cars! Better yet, open an American Coney in one, and a Lafayette Coney in the other.

Tell me that isn't a great idea!

Sorry, someone already put a bid on those two cars for a Taco roadtrain.

[Tig3rzhark]

If u tear the people mover down, you better have something better to replace it. The city was formatted like spokes on a wheel, it needs a circulator.

Have LRT on some of the spokes Woodward, Michigan and BRT on others, Grand River, Fort, Gratiot, and Jefferson.

As far as the People Mover, call me nostalgic, but I don't think I can see this city without it, at least not right now anyway.

[fryar]

The People Mover is obviously utterly ludicrous, normal people would just stroll, but not Michiganders, there, I said it. When I worked in downtown, across from Campus Martius, our boss announced he would take us out for a fancy lunch at the Detroit Athletic Club, on the near side of Comerica Park, one time, and multiple conversations started about who would carpool with whom in order to save on parking. If the absurdity of this escapes you, well, you must be from Michigan. :-P

Great, now that we're all offended and have forgotten about Atlanta in our rage, I agree with Tig3rzshark above. Just leave it in place. Given the weather conditions and people's habits, folks in Ypsilanti will prefer the option to get to work in the RenCen once that rail line [[to AA) and the M1 are set up. I would be the last to argue that one needs to be put up, but since it's already there, we might as well leave it, it seems to me. It's long-term potential seems to be limited, though, since it is a discontinued model, so some day, we won't be able to avoid saying good riddance to bad rubbish.

[tallboy66]

Well if they can have it go in a circle with stops at abandoned buildings for years why not keep it running when/if this Woodard light rail gets built in 2/3/4015. LOL!
The day Detroit gets any type of workable mass transit I'll look for 2nd coming of JC.

[DetroitDad]

If u tear the people mover down, you better have something better to replace it. The city was formatted like spokes on a wheel, it needs a circulator.

Have LRT on some of the spokes Woodward, Michigan and BRT on others, Grand River, Fort, Gratiot, and Jefferson.

As far as the People Mover, call me nostalgic, but I don't think I can see this city without it, at least not right now anyway.

I wonder if people are automatically thinking about the current outdated drab yellow and green city buses when they hear the phrase "bus rapid transit". I got to see the new BRT buses recently, and they look sharp, futuristic, clean, and yes, I would ride one. The new buses being used on BRT lines would probably work just fine on certain routes. They aren't cheap, and adding them to some of the radials would still seem relatively permanent, in that the radials will always have mass transit lines of some sort, and the new BRT vehicles would be permanent additions.

[fryar]

I wonder if people are automatically thinking about the current outdated drab yellow and green city buses when they hear the phrase "bus rapid transit".

I've thought that, too.

I was surprised there hasn't been more discussion of this concept, since it would seem to be an area in which the Detroit manufacturers could well be competitive [[okay, maybe I shouldn't have been surprised ). 10 years ago, more or less, I remember reading how some latin american city had implemented a very well thought through BRT system 20 years earlier and brought about high rates of growth. It sounded like they had basically rethought the bus experience from the ground up, with lots of improvements tied to the stations, the coordination of traffic lights, dedicated lanes, and so on. I would have thought Detroit would be an excellent US demonstration project for that idea.

But, I mean, if they want to do light rail up Woodward instead of a BRT, that's fine by me as well. It's not like you're going to stop having public transit up Woodward. I wouldn't be surprised if they implemented BRT for some other areas in the future.

[Gistok]

For those of you [[likely the majority) that have never toured the PM maintenance center and garage adjacent to the Times Square station... the facility was built to house up to 100 type PM cars... likely because back when it was built, the decision was to be prepared for expansion. So this miscalculation adds to the annual deficit [[it's much too large of a building... spanning 2 blocks).

However that expansion never happened... and we can see that the very unpopular SEMTA project contributed to SEMTAs demise and reincarnation as SMART.

Interestingly enough the majority of the unpopularity of the PM was by suburban Detroiters. Back then anything remotely related to the "hit 8 Mile Rd." Coleman Alexander Young was very unpopular among suburbanites.

Growing up as a white kid on the far east side near Balduck Park, I remember as a kid... me and my neighbor friend... when we got into trouble and were going to be yelled at by our Dads... we would bring up either CAY or the People Mover... and that yelling at turned quickly into a long diatribe about how the city is wasting money and is corrupt... etc. We got away with mischief a lot with that approach!

[fryar]

For those of you [[likely the majority) that have never toured the PM maintenance center and garage adjacent to the Times Square station... the facility was built to house up to 100 type PM cars... likely because back when it was built, the decision was to be prepared for expansion. So this miscalculation adds to the annual deficit [[it's much too large of a building... spanning 2 blocks).

Ah, well, it's nice to know that this is one architectural gem, whatever building it is, that is being maintained and won't soon have trees growing out of its roof.

Interestingly enough the majority of the unpopularity of the PM was by suburban Detroiters. Back then anything remotely related to the "hit 8 Mile Rd." Coleman Alexander Young was very unpopular among suburbanites.

That would have been my guess. I imagine the suburbs never forgave Detroit for fighting the building of DTW, or some-such, which of course was really just revenge for the earlier perceived slight of...oh, never mind, it goes all the way back to the Mayflower, and even before that. Really, it all started back in 1529, during the siege of Vienna, with the inadvertent scorning of a sacred village goat by an under-informed but otherwise perfectly pleasant Ottoman Turk lance-polisher.

Growing up as a white kid on the far east side near Balduck Park, I remember as a kid... me and my neighbor friend... when we got into trouble and were going to be yelled at by our Dads... we would bring up either CAY or the People Mover... and that yelling at turned quickly into a long diatribe about how the city is wasting money and is corrupt... etc. We got away with mischief a lot with that approach!

Thanks for sharing that. I realize you didn't call your dad a name or anything, but it was just a very frank thing to say, which is always appreciated.

... turned quickly into a long diatribe about how the city is wasting money and is corrupt... etc.

Sounds like a website I frequent...that damn Klowncil, they oughta be riding the bus like the rest of us joe's!

[Detroitnerd]

We do discuss BRT sometimes. How much it is almost as expensive as light rail with all the benefits of ... a bus system. Pffft ...

[canuck]

Let's talk about Atlanta some more...

[DetroitDad]

Further discussion on bus rapid transit in Detroit.

[Rocko]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OyeJDHVcCA

Love the jam!

[fryar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OyeJDHVcCA

You've got to admit, it's cool to look out the front of trains, when possible.

Love the jam!

. Back when I tried to figure out what was going on with this monorail, I hit on their website, and that song would play automatically, like I was looking at that dancing hamster site from the late 90's or something. Sadly, it seemed pretty ridiculous, and I'll always associate that sense of if-there-was-one-thing-they-could-have-done-to-make-this-monorail-more-ridiculous-this-is-it with the PM song.

[East Detroit]

In Chicago, which many of you adore with a fetish [[and should probably move to), there is the subway spoke system and there is the downtown elevated loop. Somehow people manage to get off of one and onto the other without even the aid of elevators/escalators.

Then again, people in Chicago don't seem to hate themselves as much as we do. I think they call the elevated train something other than the "ColemanTram" or some other divisive moniker.

[MDoyle]

And then we get East Detroit with such vast knowledge of the Chicago transit system that they compare The Loop to the DPM. Yikes.

[Gistok]

Then again, people in Chicago don't seem to hate themselves as much as we do. I think they call the elevated train something other than the "ColemanTram" or some other divisive moniker.

CAY has been out of office for 17 years, and dead for 12 years... are you still hearing people call it by that name?? Or are you just using a "last century" label to make a weak analogy??

[professorscott]

The one thing DPM could do, in order to make itself more of a relevant part of the overall transportation network, is to upgrade its equipment so it can accept and issue bus transfers. Bus riders are, if I can risk a generalization here, very price sensitive - look what happened when DDOT thought it could charge 50c extra for "express" buses a short time ago. Somebody who's already paid for their morning drive in, isn't willing to pay an extra 50c for the last half-mile; they either walk, or transfer to a bus that goes right past their workplace. If DPM took the transfer, I suspect quite a few more people would use it.