Downtown Birmingham, a juvenile hang out spot

**REL** · August-02-10, 08:07 PM

Wow. These are sad excuses for "news" stories. They don't include any statistics, they just rely on this one guy's anecdotal evidence, and it seems he sought out both news stations. One cranky guy's annoyance with teenagers doesn't a story make. Seriously, 2 & 7? Have y'all never been to Royal Oak?

But what is more disturbing to me: The alarming increase of botox and collagen running loose in Birmingham, not to mention several men in navy blue wool blazers in the middle of summer. Talk about terrorized, Mr. Bergstrom!! Is no one else scared like I am?

**KarmicCurse** · August-03-10, 02:01 AM

I didn't know about that theater going up in RO. I think that's a great, but please don't let it be a huge box in the midst of a vast parking lot!

**Gistok** · August-03-10, 02:09 AM

Originally Posted by cmubryan

If the city of Detroit could get its act together and reduce crime, maybe we would see one day more districts like B'ham, Royal Oak, Ferndale and Berkley rejuvenate with movie theatres inside the city, the way it should be!

Just a footnote... but the Ilitch's make sure that no major crime takes place at the Fox Theatre by requiring ALL patrons to go thru metal detectors. This is even true for the upcoming Preservation Wayne Downtown Theatre Tour participants. Tour participants are given large plastic bags by PW for them to empty their purses/pockets of metal objects before going thru the metal detectors and then entering the theatre.

**iheartthed** · August-03-10, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by Hermod

Downtown Detroit is chock full of parks where they tore down buildings. Metro parks are also quite prolific. There are lots and lots of "public" spaces.

Metro Parks technically aren't public spaces. I don't believe any Metro Park is accessible by anything other than private cars, and all require a fee to enter.

**DanFromDetroit** · August-03-10, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Metro Parks technically aren't public spaces. I don't believe any Metro Park is accessible by anything other than private cars, and all require a fee to enter.

I've walked into Metro Beach via the trail running along 16mi rd. free of charge many times.

/Had an ex that lived 10 minutes away from the beach - turned out to be way too hot for me

**Lowell** · August-03-10, 08:46 AM

Good points REL.

But what is more disturbing to me: The alarming increase of botox and collagen running loose in Birmingham, not to mention several men in navy blue wool blazers in the middle of summer. Talk about terrorized, Mr. Bergstrom!! Is no one else scared like I am?

What used to really scare me were those barefeet in penny loafers. And you.reright about the anecdotal nature of this "story". Some stories recycle every few years, forever.

"The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority, they show disrespect to their elders.... They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and are tyrants over their teachers."
Plato 4th C BC

**iheartthed** · August-03-10, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by DanFromDetroit

I've walked into Metro Beach via the trail running along 16mi rd. free of charge many times.

/Had an ex that lived 10 minutes away from the beach - turned out to be way too hot for me

Oh okay. I haven't been to Metro Beach since I was in high school, so I stand slightly corrected. But for the other 5 million people in Metro Detroit who don't live within a half mile of a Metro Park, they are effectively inaccessible by any means other than private car.

**DetroitPlanner** · August-03-10, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Metro Parks technically aren't public spaces. I don't believe any Metro Park is accessible by anything other than private cars, and all require a fee to enter.

Nearly all Metroparks are accessible by either bicycle or pedestrians paths where there is no one charging admission. In many places these paths are part of a larger regional system. Off the top of my head they connect to the Macomb County bike system, I-275, and the South Lyon nonmotorized systems. It would not surprise me if more connections existed. These are public spaces supported by tax millages and user fees. The user fee comes in the form of the automobile which typically also puts the most tax on its infrastructure in terms of the need to provide for roadways, parking, and mitigation of the runoff from this infrastructure.

No one is stopping you from driving to a park finding a legal spot to park along a nearby roadway and walking or riding your bike into it.

If you build a downtown full of movie theatres and coffee houses, you get kids. End of story. This is the end result of the moving of the higher-end shopping from this district to Somerset. You won't see this in Royal Oak, Ferndale or Dearborn because they have let thier cities become food courts for yuppies, and kids can't get into the bars so they stay away for the most part. There is a whole other set of issues that these communities have to deal with [[drunks, fights). You have to fill the holes in your tax revenues with something.

**jackie5275** · August-03-10, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Nearly all Metroparks are accessible by either bicycle or pedestrians paths where there is no one charging admission. In many places these paths are part of a larger regional system.

No one is stopping you from driving to a park finding a legal spot to park along a nearby roadway and walking or riding your bike into it.

If you build a downtown full of movie theatres and coffee houses, you get kids. End of story. This is the end result of the moving of the higher-end shopping from this district to Somerset. You won't see this in Royal Oak, Ferndale or Dearborn because they have let thier cities become food courts for yuppies.

First, I think most kids today, especially those hanging out at the theatres & malls, don't feel like riding their bikes anywhere. Kids today are influenced heavily by a media driven desire for materialistic excitement. They can't get that desire met by hanging around a picnic shelter at Metro Beach, Kensington, Lower Huron or any other Metro Park. For them, going to a Metro Park is boring.
Second, regarding not seeing this in Dearborn, you must be speaking only of the business districts along Michigan Ave. If you go to Fairlane, especially on the weekend nights right by the Star Theatre, you will see the same thing.

**DetroitPlanner** · August-03-10, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by jackie5275

Second, regarding not seeing this in Dearborn, you must be speaking only of the business districts along Michigan Ave. If you go to Fairlane, especially on the weekend nights right by the Star Theatre, you will see the same thing.

My point was that when retail left Dearborn for the mall it was replaced with bars. When it left Birmingham for the mall, it was replaced with a movie theatres, coffee shops. These are things that will attract kids. West Dearborn however has attracted drunks and fights. I don't know which is better, but both made a consious effort to fill vacant retail space and must live with what they have.

Your line of reasoning follows mine. Yes Fairlane has kids, but since it is not part of the public realm it can enact restrictions [[and has). Like most crumudgeons, I love shopping at Fairlane [[past 6 pm!).

My mention of the Metroparks was to clarify another arguement on whenther or not it can be considered public space because of the user-fee attached to drivers.

**Danny** · August-03-10, 11:01 AM

Since a lot of kids are hang around in Downtown Birmingham. Lot's of kids are also hanging out at Downtown Royal Oak. As long as these two downtowns areas have glamourous shops, cafe's and a theatre districts. Lot's of kids will continue to hang out in that area until something terrible happens.

At least Fairlane and Eastland Mall are doing a execellent job enforcing the 5:00pm. curfew for kids under 18 years of age. The result a family predestrian life and developing business.

Eastland Mall was on the brink of becoming a dead mall until the 5:00pm. curfew was enforced now new stores and anchor malls are coming to Eastland bigger and better than ever for example [[ Burlington Coat Factory, K&H Clothing Store, and Food Court, Sears, and coming soon Shopper's World)

**JBMcB** · August-03-10, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

You won't see this in Royal Oak, Ferndale or Dearborn because they have let thier cities become food courts for yuppies, and kids can't get into the bars so they stay away for the most part.

I see kids in Royal Oak all the time. Loads of them. They hang out at Starbucks, Caribou, Astoria, Bean & Leaf and Leo's. Heck, Leo's is *packed* with kids most nights.

I don't know what it is, but the kids in Birmingham seem to be a lot more unruly than the kids in Royal Oak. The kids in R.O. seem to be lounging, just hanging out. The kids in Birmingham seem to roam in big packs, yelling and running around. A few weeks ago I saw a couple of girls fighting in Birmingham. I've never seen anyone fight in R.O.

**Danny** · August-03-10, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by JBMcB

I see kids in Royal Oak all the time. Loads of them. They hang out at Starbucks, Caribou, Astoria, Bean & Leaf and Leo's. Heck, Leo's is *packed* with kids most nights.

I don't know what it is, but the kids in Birmingham seem to be a lot more unruly than the kids in Royal Oak. The kids in R.O. seem to be lounging, just hanging out. The kids in Birmingham seem to roam in big packs, yelling and running around. A few weeks ago I saw a couple of girls fighting in Birmingham. I've never seen anyone fight in R.O.

That's because Downtown Birminghan has oodles of glamourous retail shops even on the second floor on most storefronts. Plus 2 movie complexes. A great spot for parents to drop their kids off and have their 'ME' time for what's left of their lives.

**Danny** · August-03-10, 11:33 AM

One day if juveniles somehow trash Downtown Birmingham or Royal Oak, then the curfew will be enforced, leaving the area back to 'adult swim'. [[ As in family predestrian and adult life.)

**iheartthed** · August-03-10, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Nearly all Metroparks are accessible by either bicycle or pedestrians paths where there is no one charging admission. In many places these paths are part of a larger regional system. Off the top of my head they connect to the Macomb County bike system, I-275, and the South Lyon nonmotorized systems. It would not surprise me if more connections existed. These are public spaces supported by tax millages and user fees. The user fee comes in the form of the automobile which typically also puts the most tax on its infrastructure in terms of the need to provide for roadways, parking, and mitigation of the runoff from this infrastructure.

No one is stopping you from driving to a park finding a legal spot to park along a nearby roadway and walking or riding your bike into it.

I conceded the point that the parks aren't technically inaccessible by car... But clearly these places are intended to be accessible primarily by car and thus aren't truly public spaces. Where is the closest place that you can legally park your car and walk to Metro Beach or Kensington or Lower Huron? If I recall correctly, you can't even park on Metro Pkwy, and I think the same for Haggerty leading to Lower Huron. Nor can you take any type of public transportation into the parks. It's completely a Robert Moses concept. If you don't have a car then you most likely cannot go.

**DetroitPlanner** · August-03-10, 12:24 PM

There are places you can park your car legally, you just have to be in the know to use them. You see folks parked all the time along Grand River near Kensington, you can also park in S Lyon and bike in though interconnected trails built by the City, County, DNRE, and HCMA. I don't even know why you insist on taking a tangent to this length. Just because you don't know where these spots are does not mean they do not exist. You can also enter the Lower Huron Parks from a variety of places and one is near downtown New Boston. Macomb County has a countywide paratransit service that connects the urban area. Route 635 will get you very close to Metropolitan Beach.

This thread is about Downtowns and them pulling kids. Some, like Birmingham have built an environment that pulls lots of teens, others like Royal Oak have not. This does not mean no teens ever make it to Royal Oak, Ferndale, or Dearborn, only that they are not overwhelming.

Your comment regarding Robert Moses makes no sense, he was not just a highway guy. He was also in charge of NYS housing, parks. He is the epitome of why you cannot concentrate power in public service. Without him we would not have Jane Jacobs nor would we have learned some important lessons that led to NEPA. He came to power at a very different time when car travel was expanding. What the heck does that have to do with Teens in B'ham in 2010??

**iheartthed** · August-03-10, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

There are places you can park your car legally, you just have to be in the know to use them. You see folks parked all the time along Grand River near Kensington, you can also park in S Lyon and bike in though interconnected trails built by the City, County, DNRE, and HCMA. I don't even know why you insist on taking a tangent to this length. Just because you don't know where these spots are does not mean they do not exist. You can also enter the Lower Huron Parks from a variety of places and one is near downtown New Boston. Macomb County has a countywide paratransit service that connects the urban area. Route 635 will get you very close to Metropolitan Beach.

This thread is about Downtowns and them pulling kids. Some, like Birmingham have built an environment that pulls lots of teens, others like Royal Oak have not. This does not mean no teens ever make it to Royal Oak, Ferndale, or Dearborn, only that they are not overwhelming.

The point is that Metro Detroit's lack of public spaces leads parents to drop their kids off on a street corner in Birmingham every afternoon.

I don't know why you keep trying to pass the Metroparks off as completely open public space when they aren't. Campus Martius is a open public space. Hart Plaza is an open public space. The Riverwalk is an open public space. The Metroparks are not open public spaces.

**bailey** · August-03-10, 01:03 PM

The point is that Metro Detroit's lack of public spaces leads parents to drop their kids off on a street corner in Birmingham every afternoon.

lets have a moment of honesty here. Is it really the mere presence of kids that has everyone up in arms about? Or have the demographics of the kids changed to the point that the locals are upset that there are too many black kids around?

**DetroitPlanner** · August-03-10, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

The point is that Metro Detroit's lack of public spaces leads parents to drop their kids off on a street corner in Birmingham every afternoon.

This is a true statement. I am trying to frame is WHY B'ham gets the kids. Why not Downtown Detroit? Downtown Detroit has public spaces accessible by all modes, and is not out in the boonies like the HCMA parks. If B'ham decided to go for more bars, $20+ a plate restraunts instead of movies and cheap legal drink establishments, I bet the number of kids would not be out of whack and not drawing such a contoversey.

**terryh** · August-03-10, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by JBMcB

I see kids in Royal Oak all the time. Loads of them. They hang out at Starbucks, Caribou, Astoria, Bean & Leaf and Leo's. Heck, Leo's is *packed* with kids most nights.

I don't know what it is, but the kids in Birmingham seem to be a lot more unruly than the kids in Royal Oak. The kids in R.O. seem to be lounging, just hanging out. The kids in Birmingham seem to roam in big packs, yelling and running around. A few weeks ago I saw a couple of girls fighting in Birmingham. I've never seen anyone fight in R.O.

I want to find out more about that catfight? Were they pulling hair or swinging? Did the fight get broken up right away?

**canuck** · August-03-10, 07:52 PM

Why cant parents buy their kids a car and have them cruise instead of getting used to all that pedestrian talk about the urban life. Pretty soon we'll have them sitting at sidewalk cafes and walking! Dog forbid. I would rather have them playing organized sports which usually means driving them anyways, or hanging out at the mall as in "hanging out the laundry". So parents, be sure to prop up Michigan's economy, buy your kids a car. When you walk back to your car after watching another end of the world movie in a downtown suburban theatre, you will be comfortable in the thought that there are fewer kids out there shooting the shit and reinventing the wheel.

**jackie5275** · August-03-10, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

I am trying to frame is WHY B'ham gets the kids. Why not Downtown Detroit? Downtown Detroit has public spaces accessible by all modes...

I think because it's a wealthy area. It sounds more glamorous to say "I hung out in Birmingham this weekend" than "I hung out in Detroit [[or at home) this weekend". It gives the speaker a sense of "I can hang with the rich folk" to their listener.

**cmubryan** · August-30-10, 04:43 PM

I think this is what people were afraid would start happening...

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/24815458/detail.html

**iheartthed** · August-30-10, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by cmubryan

I think this is what people were afraid would start happening...

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/24815458/detail.html

LOL here we go again...

Deputy Police Chief Mark Clemence said two couples, ages 16 to 21, were leaving a movie around 12:30 a.m. on Aug. 21 when they were approached by four people, two of whom were black men who brandished handguns, on the west side of the Park Street parking structure.

**R8RBOB** · August-31-10, 05:09 AM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

LOL here we go again...

Is it fair to say that the other two criminals were...dare I say this.....White? Welcome to the 21st century where Black and White will pair up to benefit in these harsh times.