Downtown Birmingham, a juvenile hang out spot

**Danny** · July-31-10, 09:29 AM

There has been recent reports from various businesses owners that Downtown Birmingham has become a hip cool hang out spot for hip cool skinny jean blurry haired mop top kids and teens. This action is causing adult life to leave and increase police presence in that area to prevent sudden violence at the Old Woodward/ 15 Mile [[ Maple Rd.) Corridor. Parents are to the blame for dropping their kids off in Downtown Birmingham until later even hours. Will the increase presence of kids and teens in Downtown Birmingham cause glamourous businesses to leave or will it be good thing to profitability to offset the recession.

Any thoughts?

**Zacha341** · July-31-10, 12:07 PM

Here are two links with video re. the issue:

Some comments to the news postings are inferring that the Birmingham 'snobs' are whining. But from time to time I work with teens and the profanity and disruption level can be VERY high in that population. I'd not want to walk into a 'wall' of unruly teens after my dinner engagement when I visit the city...

Crowds of teens taking over downtown Birmingham

http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/local_n...own-birmingham

Concerns in Birmingham over Crowds of Kids

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news...-20100730-wpms

**BrushStart** · July-31-10, 12:42 PM

This is what happens when you have suburbs with nothing for teens to do. When they hit a certain age, they want to escape the isolation of their house and go around where all the people are. In the 'burbs, that includes shopping malls and small downtown areas, like Birmingham. Parents have no problem dumping their kids off in Birmingham because it is safe and nothing will happen, except the kids will run around, smoke cigarettes, and pretend to be "urban." To the snoods in Birmingham- deal with it. You reap what you sow.

Edit: Growing up in the suburbs, I craved a taste of the "city." I didn't know what was outside my own backyard. I thought the whole world was just one huge suburban nightmare. Even then I couldn't figure out why people wanted to live like that- I knew there must be something more. Kids hang out in downtown Plymouth, Northville, etc for that reason. Eventually, when I was about 16, I remember going to Ann Arbor, and it was like a playground. I spent every weekend there. I was never even exposed to Detroit other than going to a few Tigers games at the old stadium and going to the DMC a few times. My parents are still afraid of Detroit when they come downtown to visit me. They couldn't believe when I moved into the city. Kids that are exposed to the city at a younger age are not as fascinated with the city as suburban kids like me were. I still remember the first time my dad took me downtown for some show at COBO. I had no idea that there were skyscrapers in SE Michigan. I was wide-eyed for city life from that point on.

**cmubryan** · July-31-10, 05:14 PM

I think the reason its becoming more of a "concern" is that these kids aren't the typical "Birmingham type" teens. To be blunt, it looks as if there are many inner-city kids hanging out in Birmingham in large groups which is scaring some of the other people going there. At least this is what I have witnessed first hand and have heard from some peers. The demographics of the Birmingham visitors has shifted a little which is making some people uncomfortable.

**Zacha341** · July-31-10, 06:02 PM

Indeed a factor overall is people 'dumping' their teens, feeling secure that so long as they're in groups and not 'milling' about in Detroit they'll at least make it home alive.

But what is the real factor/ reason really, or should I say concern?

A. More black families [[and their teens) who now live in Birmingham, etc [[an inevitable factor as more middle-class blacks leave Detroit).

OR

B. Teenagers of various social and economic backgrounds coming from the Detroit to hang out in the Big B?

Perhaps for some little distinction is made.......

Originally Posted by cmubryan

I think the reason its becoming more of a "concern" is that these kids aren't the typical "Birmingham type" teens. To be blunt, it looks as if there are many inner-city kids hanging out in Birmingham in large groups which is scaring some of the other people going there. At least this is what I have witnessed first hand and have heard from some peers. The demographics of the Birmingham visitors has shifted a little which is making some people uncomfortable.

**R8RBOB** · July-31-10, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by cmubryan

I think the reason its becoming more of a "concern" is that these kids aren't the typical "Birmingham type" teens. To be blunt, it looks as if there are many inner-city kids hanging out in Birmingham in large groups which is scaring some of the other people going there. At least this is what I have witnessed first hand and have heard from some peers. The demographics of the Birmingham visitors has shifted a little which is making some people uncomfortable.

Sorry, but you weren't blunt enough. Let's drop the political correctness and just say this using your words:

To be blunt, it looks as if there are many Black kids hanging out in Birmingham in large groups which is scaring some of the White people going there.

Now isn't that better? It is exactly what's going on but in this "so-called post-racial world of Obama's" no one wants to sound like a bigot or a racist. For the record, I would suspect that teens [[White teens) have been converging to B'ham for years but now that a large number of Black folk' have left the "inner-city" for a good life in the burbs and their children are going in the gatherings in Birmingham mingling in with White teens well, it's a problem.

bartock · August-01-10, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by R8RBOB

Sorry, but you weren't blunt enough. Let's drop the political correctness and just say this using your words: Now isn't that better? It is exactly what's going on but in this "so-called post-racial world of Obama's" no one wants to sound like a bigot or a racist. For the record, I would suspect that teens [[White teens) have been converging to B'ham for years but now that a large number of Black folk' have left the "inner-city" for a good life in the burbs and their children are going in the gatherings in Birmingham mingling in with White teens well, it's a problem.

This is right on.

There have been gobs of kids hanging out in Birmingham for many years. About 15 years ago I remember the "raver kids" [[the sucker, glow-stick, etc., kids) from R.O., and elsewhere were littered around Birmingham...one of my roomates during a short time I stayed in Pleasant Ridge was one. I'm usually not much about the racial stuff, but this "revelation" about kids hanging out in Birmingham has "new demographic" written all over it.

**R8RBOB** · August-01-10, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by bartock

This is right on.

There have been gobs of kids hanging out in Birmingham for many years. About 15 years ago I remember the "raver kids" [[the sucker, glow-stick, etc., kids) from R.O., and elsewhere were littered around Birmingham...one of my roomates during a short time I stayed in Pleasant Ridge was one. I'm usually not much about the racial stuff, but this "revelation" about kids hanging out in Birmingham has "new demographic" written all over it.

Thanks for verifying my observation of Birmingham. I try not to use the racial component unless it is needed. That said, when the poster commented on inner-city youth going to Birmingham, I had to commented. IMO, I don't see Detroit youth [[Black youth) traveling to Birmingham to hang out in their downtown when Detroit have a much larger downtown to gather. Now, I won't be oblivious to think that Detroiters don't go Birmingham because I know they do and I know that Detroit youth who may have friends out in the burbs would travel to B'ham to hang with their friends but I refuse to accept that the crowds of kids which contain Black kids all come from the city of Detroit because that is false, however, to the ones complaining when they see the crowds and they see a lot of Black faces, the first thing that they are thinking is that they are from Detroit which is why the news has picked up the story.

**Nee** · August-01-10, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by cmubryan

I think the reason its becoming more of a "concern" is that these kids aren't the typical "Birmingham type" teens. To be blunt, it looks as if there are many inner-city kids hanging out in Birmingham in large groups which is scaring some of the other people going there. At least this is what I have witnessed first hand and have heard from some peers. The demographics of the Birmingham visitors has shifted a little which is making some people uncomfortable.

I highly doubt that Detroiters are driving way out to Birmingham and just dropping off to hangout. How do you know that the kids are from the inner-city? Skin color should not be an indicator as African Americans live in Birminham and surrounding suburbs.

**cmubryan** · August-01-10, 08:58 PM

I said "looks" as if there are many inner city kids hanging out there. I didn't say they are. The apparel that is worn by many of the teens, expressions that are made from the teens are typically more often found in U.S. inner cities more than a suburban area.

However, it is true that many of these teens are not neccesarily living in the inner-city. I am just saying that their outward apperance is someting that most people in this country would associate with the inner-city. It is what it is. Absolutely not meant to be insulting.

**R8RBOB** · August-01-10, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by cmubryan

I said "looks" as if there are many inner city kids hanging out there. I didn't say they are. The apparel that is worn by many of the teens, expressions that are made from the teens are typically more often found in U.S. inner cities more than a suburban area.

However, it is true that many of these teens are not neccesarily living in the inner-city. I am just saying that their outward apperance is someting that most people in this country would associate with the inner-city. It is what it is. Absolutely not meant to be insulting.

There you go again with the PC speak. So it is fair to assume that all the suburban kids are wearing polo shirts with skinny jeans and all the inner-city kids are wearing oversize t-shrits with pants hanging off their asses? And could you explain to us squares what expressions can determine if you are city or suburban?

**DTWflyer** · August-01-10, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by cmubryan

I said "looks" as if there are many inner city kids hanging out there. I didn't say they are. The apparel that is worn by many of the teens, expressions that are made from the teens are typically more often found in U.S. inner cities more than a suburban area.

However, it is true that many of these teens are not neccesarily living in the inner-city. I am just saying that their outward apperance is someting that most people in this country would associate with the inner-city. It is what it is. Absolutely not meant to be insulting.

Whether you want to hear it or not, much of the crime other than they typical teenage stuff of weed, drinking, and vandalism is caused by residents of Southfield & Detroit. Yes they do come out to Birmingham because of the lack of options to see a movie or wander in their town. That said, have you ever been to the Star Southfield lately???? That crowd there is unruly.

**cmubryan** · August-01-10, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by Nee

I highly doubt that Detroiters are driving way out to Birmingham and just dropping off to hangout. How do you know that the kids are from the inner-city? Skin color should not be an indicator as African Americans live in Birminham and surrounding suburbs.

By the way, "way out to Birmingham" is a strech. Shooting up Southfield Freeway and then on to Southfield Road which hits Maple in downtown Birmingham is a whole 7 MILES from the city limits.

**Zacha341** · August-02-10, 03:58 AM

Indeed distance is not a factor these days.

I recall as a kid my parents would reference places like Royal Oak, Troy and Novi as being "out there". Like it we were talking about going to Lansing or Grand Rapids in terms of distance! They weren't from Michigan and they had a 70's perspective as to locations and access related to distance.

Indeed now Birmingham is around the corner to me... I pop into Royal Oak just to get to Trader Joes for a few items. It's routine. Birmingham shares its boarder with Southfield at certain parts with Southfield Rd. bottoming out into B'ham.

Also Birmingham is part of the Woodward corridor that is very familiar to most.

Heck teens go everywhere now!

They even hang out an Great Lakes Crossing and that is a "out there" a bit!

Originally Posted by cmubryan

By the way, "way out to Birmingham" is a strech. Shooting up Southfield Freeway and then on to Southfield Road which hits Maple in downtown Birmingham is a whole 7 MILES from the city limits.

bartock · August-01-10, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by BrushStart

This is what happens when you have suburbs with nothing for teens to do. When they hit a certain age, they want to escape the isolation of their house and go around where all the people are. In the 'burbs, that includes shopping malls and small downtown areas, like Birmingham. Parents have no problem dumping their kids off in Birmingham because it is safe and nothing will happen, except the kids will run around, smoke cigarettes, and pretend to be "urban." To the snoods in Birmingham- deal with it. You reap what you sow.

Edit: Growing up in the suburbs, I craved a taste of the "city." I didn't know what was outside my own backyard. I thought the whole world was just one huge suburban nightmare. Even then I couldn't figure out why people wanted to live like that- I knew there must be something more. Kids hang out in downtown Plymouth, Northville, etc for that reason. Eventually, when I was about 16, I remember going to Ann Arbor, and it was like a playground. I spent every weekend there. I was never even exposed to Detroit other than going to a few Tigers games at the old stadium and going to the DMC a few times. My parents are still afraid of Detroit when they come downtown to visit me. They couldn't believe when I moved into the city. Kids that are exposed to the city at a younger age are not as fascinated with the city as suburban kids like me were. I still remember the first time my dad took me downtown for some show at COBO. I had no idea that there were skyscrapers in SE Michigan. I was wide-eyed for city life from that point on.

A lot of us who grew up in the suburbs had the same experience and Detroit was a fascination of sorts. I used to love visiting my grandmother because she was within city limits. When I got older, I lived in Detroit for several years. You say that kids will go to downtown Birmingham [[which really isn't THAT small, by the way), and "pretend to be urban." Well, in a way, any of us suburban transplants who spent years in Detroit simply pretended to be urban on a larger and longer scale. Kids like malls. Downtown Birmingham is like one big outdoor mall.

I don't bedgrudge my fellow suburbanites who didn't have the same fascination that I did, nor would I blame their parents for any Detroit attitudes/fears because - all social theories and blame aside - the Detroit they grew up in as innocent kids is not the Detroit that existed when we grew up. At best I'd say we have a bit more of a rounded viewpoint of things, but we all live in glass houses.

To your last bolded point, as a parent of three, when my kids are old enough and inevitably hanging out, I can bet that the last thing I'll want to hear is someone telling me that it was something that I had sown. This is certain shit that most kids are going to do, no matter how they are raised or what they are exposed to.

**Patrick** · July-31-10, 08:40 PM

I think it depends on geography and where the kids live. East side kids are going to hit up Partridge Creek now because it is an outdoor “venue” and it is also the closest thing to a downtown, save for the Clem, in that area. Shit, don’t they cruise Gratiot anymore?

**maxx** · July-31-10, 09:13 PM

Brush Start: This is what happens when you have suburbs with nothing for teens to do.

There's plenty to do, but it takes money. You're telling me none of these kids have computers or video games at home since no one reads? And they're too young to engage in conversation at their friends' homes. So what do they do if they have no money? Just wander around? I heard a story today about adults who play soccer in Detroit but somehow, I don't think these kids are into soccer. In Southfield, local schools and parks had to take down the basketball hoops because they attracted crowds of young kids and adults who stayed into the night if there were any lights on. Most were not playing basketball. When I was a teenager, you didn't go out at night unless you were going to the movies or to a friend's house. I don't remember anyone saying they were bored. It seems very irresponsible to me to just dump your kid at the mall or some suburban downtown for the day or evening. A lot of malls don't want young people who don't have adults accompanying them.

Brush Start: To the snoods in Birmingham- deal with it. You reap what you sow.

What does that mean? Birmingham has a nice downtown so it should become a place to dump kids?

from the story: Everyone comes here because it's just a place to hang out," said one girl. "No one really has any houses to hang out at."

They all live in boxes?

**BrushStart** · August-01-10, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by maxx

There's plenty to do, but it takes money. You're telling me none of these kids have computers or video games at home since no one reads? And they're too young to engage in conversation at their friends' homes. So what do they do if they have no money? Just wander around? I heard a story today about adults who play soccer in Detroit but somehow, I don't think these kids are into soccer. In Southfield, local schools and parks had to take down the basketball hoops because they attracted crowds of young kids and adults who stayed into the night if there were any lights on. Most were not playing basketball. When I was a teenager, you didn't go out at night unless you were going to the movies or to a friend's house. I don't remember anyone saying they were bored. It seems very irresponsible to me to just dump your kid at the mall or some suburban downtown for the day or evening. A lot of malls don't want young people who don't have adults accompanying them.

What does that mean? Birmingham has a nice downtown so it should become a place to dump kids?

They all live in boxes?

The truth is, kids DO NOT want to sit at home and play video games. That is exactly the problem. Today's youths are pent up inside their suburban houses, totally isolated, and some don't even get social interaction within their own families, i.e. the only child with 2 working parents.

It's been a while since I was that age, but the four walls of your house begin to close in on you around age 13, especially if you can't go anywhere because you live in the middle of nowhere suburbia. Small downtowns like Birmingham seem to be a beacon for kids trying to explore the world. Their curiosity about people, life, etc is at its PEAK.

Who cares if kids stay out at a park after dark? Nazi-like curfews are stifiling. Just make sure the kids aren't getting into trouble. Kids are becoming psychotic, depressed, obese, and anti-social because people think they should be locked up in the house all day. I hope I see kids ALL OVER downtown Birmingham. I hope they are running around. I hope I see kids in the damn park instead of the parks being empty all the time like they usually are. If parents are not going to expose their children to things, then yeah, you reap what you sow when kids start exploding with energy and wonder about the outside world that they have been starved of. Deal with it.

**DTWflyer** · August-01-10, 02:40 PM

I see a lot of people hypthesizing without really any first-hand observations.

I grew up in Birmingham and spent a lot of time in downtown B'ham has a teen in the 90's. Back then, yes, teens did hang out there but it was pretty much limited to the local area teens from B'ham/Bloomfield/Troy. There wasn't much to do in the evenings other than walk around and maybe go to Coney Island. Once the original B'ham movie theater opened up it became much more of a draw.

Fast-forward 15 years and yes, downtown Birmingham on a weekend night is much different. The Pallidum opened up in 2002 or so and there are many more restaurants/bars than there used to be down there. These establishments have drawn a much different crowd into downtown in the evening.

The movie theater is drawing an element that didn't used to be in Birmingham, particularly since there are no movie theaters in Detroit for teens / young adults to attend there. They are indeed coming to Birmingham.

There has been increased crime in downtown Birmingham recently. Teens were held up in Booth Park, significant increase in car break-ins, a teen was caught with a loaded gun in the movie theater, many more fights, assualts, etc. Although not teens, but the Blue Martini caused a ton of problems for Birmingham, including a stabbing in that club.

So yes, there is a problem in Birmingham much more than a bunch of teens wandering around with nothing to do.

**Detroit Stylin** · August-01-10, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by DTWflyer

I see a lot of people hypthesizing without really any first-hand observations.

I grew up in Birmingham and spent a lot of time in downtown B'ham has a teen in the 90's. Back then, yes, teens did hang out there but it was pretty much limited to the local area teens from B'ham/Bloomfield/Troy. There wasn't much to do in the evenings other than walk around and maybe go to Coney Island. Once the original B'ham movie theater opened up it became much more of a draw.

Fast-forward 15 years and yes, downtown Birmingham on a weekend night is much different. The Pallidum opened up in 2002 or so and there are many more restaurants/bars than there used to be down there. These establishments have drawn a much different crowd into downtown in the evening.

The movie theater is drawing an element that didn't used to be in Birmingham, particularly since there are no movie theaters in Detroit for teens / young adults to attend there. They are indeed coming to Birmingham.

There has been increased crime in downtown Birmingham recently. Teens were held up in Booth Park, significant increase in car break-ins, a teen was caught with a loaded gun in the movie theater, many more fights, assualts, etc. Although not teens, but the Blue Martini caused a ton of problems for Birmingham, including a stabbing in that club.

So yes, there is a problem in Birmingham much more than a bunch of teens wandering around with nothing to do.

So where do you propose this thuggish element is coming from?

**terryh** · August-01-10, 02:52 PM

First and foremost the teens are Americans, regardless of their city of origin or race, they are in another part of their country. Supposedly we live in a free society in which we can go where we want to go, but there is no law that residents of regions have to make 'outsiders' feel welcome. Sometimes visitors to a city or region, because of pre-concieved notions show up with a major chip on the shoulder. Sometimes when I run into a pack of male teens I get a little uptight,like, what if these young punks want to start something....

.Years ago when I was at Fairlane mall with an ex none of the teens payed us any attention or smarted off...even if they made us feel threatened, thats what security and the police ar for...to keep the peace.

**R8RBOB** · August-01-10, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by DTWflyer

I see a lot of people hypthesizing without really any first-hand observations.

I grew up in Birmingham and spent a lot of time in downtown B'ham has a teen in the 90's. Back then, yes, teens did hang out there but it was pretty much limited to the local area teens from B'ham/Bloomfield/Troy. There wasn't much to do in the evenings other than walk around and maybe go to Coney Island. Once the original B'ham movie theater opened up it became much more of a draw.

Fast-forward 15 years and yes, downtown Birmingham on a weekend night is much different. The Pallidum opened up in 2002 or so and there are many more restaurants/bars than there used to be down there. These establishments have drawn a much different crowd into downtown in the evening.

The movie theater is drawing an element that didn't used to be in Birmingham, particularly since there are no movie theaters in Detroit for teens / young adults to attend there. They are indeed coming to Birmingham.

There has been increased crime in downtown Birmingham recently. Teens were held up in Booth Park, significant increase in car break-ins, a teen was caught with a loaded gun in the movie theater, many more fights, assualts, etc. Although not teens, but the Blue Martini caused a ton of problems for Birmingham, including a stabbing in that club.

So yes, there is a problem in Birmingham much more than a bunch of teens wandering around with nothing to do.

Imitating Booker T. [[Tell me he didn't just say that)

Now this is what the fuck I'm talking about. A poster who can honestly say without question that it is Blacks who is creating the fear in Birmingham. Since the White kids don't have the skills to hold people up, break into cars and carry firearms then it could only be one group of people responsible for this: the Detroiters.

**Patrick** · July-31-10, 09:18 PM

When I was a teen in the not-so-distant 90s we had to find shit to do ourselves. We were the last kids to really go outside and play since this was right before the internet and technology exploded. We would just get into trouble or have pool parties but none of these activities cost much money if any at all. Going to the mall was a treat though.

**wolverine** · July-31-10, 10:00 PM

"hanging downtown is not a crime" say police.

Actually.....it can be...whatever their definition of hanging downtown is. Forming a group at a street corner with loud and obnoxious behavior is loitering, which can result in tickets. I'd say police can you use their best judgment to tell who is loitering and who is not....and whether to ticket or tell people to move on.

At the same time, it's good to know teenagers actually take interest in being in a downtown. Just treat it like the adults do.

**gnome** · August-01-10, 01:26 PM

Unless anyone of you chicken-littles with your "oh, black kids are in birmingham" crap have actually been to Birmingham and seen it with your own eyes, I suggest you crawl back under your knee-jerked rocks.

You offer nothing in the way of credible insight, only speculation that the cause for the concern is somehow tied to skin color. You point fingers and make tired accusations based on your own ancient perjudices formed during that last ice-age.

You run to the fire-bell and clang away without a single iota of fact to back up your claims that the residents of Birmingham are afraid that 'urbanites' are taking over downtown at sundown. No personal experience, nothing remotely timely ... just, "back in the '70s" hazy remberances of things that might have happened to someone else.

It is an example of the same shit you hear from the most venal and self-serving on the far right and left.