Savage: Illegals Elected Obama

[Detroitej72]

If you take time to research all Reagan's policies, you'll find more examples where his policies helped put us in the current financial crisis were in now.

Contrary to the right's tired, worn out arguments, he wasn't a god.

[barnesfoto]

Ray-Gun's policies of arming and bankrolling death squad governments in El Salvador and Guatemala, and the funding of the Contras in Nicaragua created a huge wave of refugees from those countries, some of whom came illegally and many of whom came illegally. All that money dumped into propping up kleptocratic regimes and look at the condition of those countries today!

Amnesty was the simplest and cheapest solution to making people responsible citizens twenty some years ago, and it's the simplest and cheapest solution to making people responsible citizens today. The idea that people should "wait in line" always comes from folks who have never had a friend or relative stuck in the gridlock of US immigration law.

[Detroitej72]

Amnesty was the simplest and cheapest solution to making people responsible citizens twenty some years ago, and it's the simplest and cheapest solution to making people responsible citizens today. The idea that people should "wait in line" always comes from folks who have never had a friend or relative stuck in the gridlock of US immigration law.

Giving amnesty to illegals is never a good idea, as it rewards people for braking the law and encourages others to follow.

[cheddar bob]

Imposing a fine for such infractions [[like the suggested $5,000 or $10,000 in the 2006 reform package) is by definition, not "amnesty".

[oladub]

Imposing a fine for such infractions [[like the suggested $5,000 or $10,000 in the 2006 reform package) is by definition, not "amnesty".

Cheddar, Is that all you think your American citizenship is worth? I don't want to start selling US ditizenships but if I had to put a price on a US citizenship, I think that $200,000 would be a bargain for a lot of people trying to better their lives. Consider, a US citizenship allows one to buy into the social security system, make wages much higher than in a lot of other countries, send kids to schools [[worth about $9,000/kid/year), and , if necessary, show up at the emergency ward for free medical treatment.

This doesn't even begin to pay for unemployment compensation and retraining workers displaced from their meat-packing, production, or construction job because they have been displaced by someone willing to work for a lot less.

Meanwhile, legal immigrants, who haven't caused 'infractions' already have to pay thousands of dollars for applications and legal help to navigate through the immigration process. If they had a record of 'infractions', they wouldn't even be let into this country.

[barnesfoto]

We've discussed this hundreds of times. and we'll be having the same arguments in 20 years.

There is no cost effective way to make "illegals" leave, other than [[a) a depression that lasts a decade [[no thanks!) or [[b) having Americans grow their own food and raise their own livestock.[[ And we know that, besides a few hippie friends raising chickens in their yards, that isn't going to happen)


The same folks who endless screech about illegals will tiptoe off to the fridge after exhausting typing sessions and stuff their mouths with goods picked and processed by the hands of the people whom they denounce.

The workers displaced in the meatpacking industry were not displaced by illegals, they were displaced by Ray-Gun's deregulation of the industry and the fact that meatpacking jobs left places like NYC and Chicago and moved into parts of the country where there was little or no union activity, and [[again, thanks to the father of modern conservocritism) fewer and fewer government inspectors to monitor safety violations.
As for "rewarding people for breaking the law", a fine could be included. [[The last time I broke the law, somebody left a ticket on my window and I paid a fine--it was much cheaper than sending armed people to search and arrest me!)
[[Besides, when Ollie North broke the law they gave him a talk show!)

When a few people break a law, usually it's the people that are flawed.
When tens of thousands of people break a law, it's usually the law that's flawed.

[firstandten]

Ray-Gun's policies of arming and bankrolling death squad governments in El Salvador and Guatemala, and the funding of the Contras in Nicaragua created a huge wave of refugees from those countries, some of whom came illegally and many of whom came illegally. All that money dumped into propping up kleptocratic regimes and look at the condition of those countries today!

Amnesty was the simplest and cheapest solution to making people responsible citizens twenty some years ago, and it's the simplest and cheapest solution to making people responsible citizens today. The idea that people should "wait in line" always comes from folks who have never had a friend or relative stuck in the gridlock of US immigration law.

Another result of this Reagan policy was the mega drug wars and drug kingpins in a drugs for guns operations with the Contra's that just helped the decline of inner cities in LA , Detroit and others which of course is being felt to this day.

Freeway Ricky Ross had a known role in this whole sordid situation.

[oladub]

Deriding Ronald Reagan is interesting but the question should be whether President Obama will be making the same immigration policy mistakes that Reagan made a quarter of a century ago.

Vegetables will cost only pennies more if picked by Americans making a better wage. Just putting Americans to work will save unemployment and welfare dollars. Were there a scarcity of labor, labor would be able to demand better wages. Besides, the number of illegal aliens working in construction far exceeds the number working in lettuce fields. I suppose that when the use of illegal construction workers is widespread enough, construction wages will plummet to the point where the comment will be made that they are doing jobs Americans won't do. The comment should be, "They are doing jobs Americans won't do for illegal alien level wages."

barnesphoto says,
"Amnesty was the simplest and cheapest solution to making people responsible citizens twenty some years ago, and it's the simplest and cheapest solution to making people responsible citizens today. The idea that people should "wait in line" always comes from folks who have never had a friend or relative stuck in the gridlock of US immigration law."
"When tens of thousands of people break a law, it's usually the law that's flawed. "

The cheapest solution to bank robbery might be to just hand out bank accounts to robbers so they wouldn't have to enter banks illegally to make withdrawals. I know two people going through the arduous and expensive legal immigration route. It is an insult to the people who wait in line, do everything legally, and are knocked around by our immigration authorities as they watch sneaks get better treatment.

Other reasons for thousands, actually millions, of people breaking the law include a corrupt corporatist government whose policies ensure a steady available flow of cheap labor into this country. As Meese reflected on the failure of Reagan's amnesty program, "there was a failure of political will to enforce new laws against employers." That's corruption and there is not a hint that the Obama administration will have the political will so lacking in the Reagan and subsequent administrations.

[rb336]

Ola, you are 100% correct

[ccbatson]

Let me get this straight...liberals here oppose open borders and immigration? Or they just oppose it when it is the result of a Republican's error? You can't have both.

[firstandten]

Found a link back when Obama was campaigning. This is pretty comphensive in terms of what and how he feels about immigration. He does not mention Amnesty as being part of his policy

Comments?


http://www.ontheissues.org/Internati...mmigration.htm

[ccbatson]

Are you blind? McCain's proposal [[with which Obama agreed there) was heavily slanted towards amnesty. He [[Obama) also blurs the distinction between legal and illegal aliens [[one of which is a group of criminals by definition).

[rb336]

Let me get this straight...liberals here oppose open borders and immigration? Or they just oppose it when it is the result of a Republican's error? You can't have both.

You haven't been paying attention the whole time we have been here have you?

[ccbatson]

Sure I have, just pointing out a hypocrisy by way of playing devil's advocate. You criticise Reagan for amnesty, so doesn't that mean you oppose amnesty?

[rb336]

Sure I have, just pointing out a hypocrisy by way of playing devil's advocate. You criticise Reagan for amnesty, so doesn't that mean you oppose amnesty?

I have opposed amnesty then and now. no hypocrisy involved

[firstandten]

"We need immigration reform that will secure our borders, and punish employers who exploit immigrant labor; reform that finally brings the 12 million people who are here illegally out of the shadows by requiring them to take steps to become legal citizens We must assert our values and reconcile our principles as a nation of immigrants and a nation of laws. That is a priority I will pursue from my very first day."


That was a pretty long article I linked but the above quote summarizes his position
I think its pretty clear and I don't see the "A" word

[ccbatson]

That would have been somewhat promising if it wasn't refuted by his actions [[and lack thereof), and given the undetrone of his duplicitous and deceptive language used at all times.

Notice who he wants to punish....the producers/capitalists, and who is not specifically targeted for punishment [[the ILLEGAL immigrants). He then describes bringing immigrants "out of the shadows" [[no mention as to whether illegal or not). Now read between the lines and what do you see?? AMNESTY.

Endorsing and praising McCain's amnesty bill is another big clue.

Sorry to inform you that you have been duped [[by Obama) again, but...it is what it is.

[barnesfoto]

Ah Ed Meese- He's one of the reasons that I call these folks "conservocrites".
The guy was part of an admin that made deregulation of corporate behavior a national religion, and here he is lamenting a lack of regulation against corporate behavior...Of course, old Ed was not against all regulation-he loved having the cops come out to beat up college students back when he was then Governor Ray-Gun's lackey.

[[from Answers.com)

While Reagan's legal affairs secretary, Meese was involved in persuading Reagan to request the resignation of then-chief of staff Philip Battaglia on the grounds that Battaglia was engaging in homosexual acts with two aides, including then-intern Jack Kemp. The allegations regarding Kemp, however, were circumstantial, based on their joint purchase of a cabin.[3]

As Reagan's chief of staff, Meese was instrumental in the decision to crack down on student protesters at People's Park in Berkeley, California, on May 15, 1969. Meese was widely criticized for escalating official response to the People's Park protest, during which law enforcement officers killed one protestor and seriously injured hundreds of others, many of whom were bystanders. Meese advised Reagan to declare a state of emergency in Berkeley, contrary to the recommendation of the Berkeley City Council, which led to a two-week occupation of the city by National Guard troops.


"Besides, the number of illegal aliens working in construction far exceeds the number working in lettuce fields."

Besides reducing Agribusiness to a single plant, you have completely side stepped the steaming turd of the meat and poultry processing industry. Are you a vegetarian or do you just like to pretend that an American cut up your beef and plucked your chicken?

"That's corruption"
Agreed.

"The cheapest solution to bank robbery might be to just hand out bank accounts to robbers"
I'd ask the banks-they are good at finding cheap solutions, whether it's outsourcing jobs or planting ink bombs in the cash bags. But in general, laws against bank robbery seem to be working, so perhaps you are comparing apples and oranges.

"That's an insult to those standing in line"


Immigration reform includes streamlining things so that those lines are shorter, which would hopefully make entering the country illegally less popular...but lets discuss the old "insult" argument .

If we are going to discuss "insults", let's discuss the "wet feet" policy that allows people from Cuba to apply for citizenship if their feet touch US soil.

People from Mexico or Haiti or Guatemala or El Salvador-all countries that have dysfunctional economic systems are not allowed the same rights, and that's an insult.

It's an insult that almost 8 years after the attack on the WTC, an illegal alien named Luis Posada-Carriles who is connected with terrorist acts in 1976 [[blowing up an aircraft filled with civilians) is still living in South Florida, enjoying the protection of the Cuban-American community and the Bush family. [[I guess being an ex-CIA employee buys you lots of amnesty) Yet folks who want to come here and hang drywall are at the top of your list, and that's an insult.

It's also an insult to the tens of millions of nonwhite people who sought citizenship prior to JFK that immigration laws prior to the 1960's favored white skinned people. And it's an insult to my grandmother's people, who had their land stolen by people with laws and papers, that folks would one day stand on the same stolen land, claiming some vague sort of moral superiority, and think that they could somehow stop a human behavior-migration-that has existed since the beginning of time.

[oladub]

Firstandten wrote, “Found a link back when Obama was campaigning. This is pretty comphensive in terms of what and how he feels about immigration. He does not mention Amnesty as being part of his policy. Comments?�

"We need immigration reform that will secure our borders, and punish employers who exploit immigrant labor; reform that finally brings the 12 million people who are here illegally out of the shadows by requiring them to take steps to become legal citizens We must assert our values and reconcile our principles as a nation of immigrants and a nation of laws. That is a priority I will pursue from my very first day."


That was a pretty long article I linked but the above quote summarizes his position
I think its pretty clear and I don't see the "A" word

Firstandten, Meese listed the similarities between Reagan's amnesty plan and the more recent Comprehensive Reform Act of 2006 . He concluded, “If this sounds familiar, it’s because these are pretty much the same provisions included in the Comprehensive Reform Act of 2006, which its supporters claim is not amnesty. In the end, slight differences in process do not change the overriding fact that the 1986 law and the recent Senate legislation both include an amnesty. The difference is that President Reagan called it for what it was.

Reagan may have been the Teflon president but President Obama can be pretty slippery himself. He says one thing and does another. No need to read between the lines. These are quotes from your article.

Q: Does your health care plan cover the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants?
A: It does not.

Obama co-sponsored providing funding for social services for non citizens
OFFICIAL CONGRESSIONAL SUMMARY: To establish a grant program to provide financial assistance to States and local governments for the costs of providing health care and educational services to non citizens.

At the very end of your article, President Obama is rated as a wide open border kind of guy - almost an extremist.

Obama scores 8% by USBC on immigration issues
OnTheIssues.org interprets the 2005-2006 USBC scores as follows:

0%-30%: open-border stance [[approx. 197 members)
30%-70%: mixed record on open borders [[approx. 70 members)
70%-100%: sealed-border stance [[approx. 202 members)

The President's answers frequently are ambiguous, purposely mixing illegal aliens together with legal immigrants as 'immigrants'. In one of his answers, he did use the legal term 'illegal aliens' once but usually he refers to non citizens here illegally as 'immigrants'. Word smith that Obama is, it is possibly intentional to blur the lines.

Another thing that stood out in your article was Obama's willingness to saturate a sodden labor market with even more workers. Obama amended the Comprehesive Immigration Bill to allow guest workers into communities with up to 9% unemployment [[It had been 11%). Just what the unemployed in those neighborhoods needed -more imported labor to compete with.

Our amendment would lower that unemployment rate to 9% of workers unemployed with a high school diploma or less. There is no reason any community with large pockets of unemployed Americans needs guest workers.

But communities with less than 9% unemployment do?

Barnesphoto, Require Cubans to be regulated by the same rules that apply to other legal immigrants? Good idea.

[ccbatson]

Slippery is a very nice and generous way of describing Obama's deceptive behavior.

[firstandten]

Oladub- You're being a little misleading with some of your comments about Obama and immigration




"Obama co-sponsored providing funding for social services for non citizens
OFFICIAL CONGRESSIONAL SUMMARY: To establish a grant program to provide financial assistance to States and local governments for the costs of providing health care and educational services to non citizens."


SPONSOR'S INTRODUCTORY REMARKS: Sen. CLINTON: Immigration is a Federal responsibility. For too long the Federal Government has neglected its duty. My amendment addresses one of the clearest examples of this neglect because our failed national immigration policy has left our State and local governments to bear the brunt of the cost of immigration. Our schools, our hospitals, our other State and local services are being strained.

Hillary is recognizing the fact that local and state governments are bearing the brunt of Federal inaction. Sen Obama was a co-sponsor






"Another thing that stood out in your article was Obama's willingness to saturate a sodden labor market with even more workers. Obama amended the Comprehesive Immigration Bill to allow guest workers into communities with up to 9% unemployment [[It had been 11%). Just what the unemployed in those neighborhoods needed -more imported labor to compete with."


SPONSOR'S INTRODUCTORY REMARKS: Sen. OBAMA: We have to ensure that communities where American unemployment rates are high will not experience unnecessary competition from guest workers. So to that end, this amendment strengthens the prevailing wage & freezes the guest worker program in communities with unemployment rates for low-skilled workers of 9% or greater. This amendment would establish a true prevailing wage for all occupations to ensure that guest workers are paid a wage that does not lower American wages. The [underlying bill S.2611] requires that employers advertise jobs to American workers at a prevailing wage before offering that job to a guest worker. And it requires that employers pay guest workers a prevailing wage. But the bill, currently, without the amendment, does not clarify how to calculate the prevailing wage for workers not covered by a collective bargaining agreement. That leaves most jobs and most workers unprotected.

I sort of liken this to the criticism Obama use to get when they said he supported the Iraq war. He didn't support the war but he supported funding for the war because not to do so would put our troops at risk since it was a done deal that there would be a war to fight.

Obama tends to be very careful with his wording, but looking at his overall position on the issue I still stand by his quote on the subject

[oladub]

firstandten, In Economics 101, we all learn about supply/demand and how one effects the other. If there is a shortage of labor, labor can demand higher wages with, or without, all sorts of government dependency programs. Allowing guest workers to settle anywhere where the unemployment isn't already 9% is flaming idiotic if one is trying to help American workers. Its nice to have a minimum wage but any Americans who are unemployed while illegal aliens hold down their former jobs are going to have to go on welfare if they are lucky. Back to supply/demand; unskilled American workers will have a harder time rising above minimum wage with this 9% guest worker policy and become a campesino like serf class. Obama should have co-sponsored lowering the guest worker limit to 3%, instead of 9%, if his goal was to better the lives of American unskilled workers.

Senator Clinton is correct that the federal government has a responsibility but it is not to coddle people who don't belong here at the expense of American workers. It is to observe already enacted laws to secure our borders, remove violators, and punish their employers. She has a better track record of buying cattle futures than of punishing Tyson.

The bit about excusing Obama's funding of the Iraq war is nonsense. Ron Paul said there was always six months of funding in the pipeline that could have been diverted from the war to extracting our troops safely from an illegal war. Nor does it explain mainsteam Democrats' sudden enthusiasm for a troop surge in Afghanistan and bombing Pakistani villages.

[ccbatson]

Try this neat trick as a litmus test....If the simple things are being ignored [[securing the border to the extent that they are enforcing existing laws, building an approved and funded fence, etc), what are the odds that the people in power are sincere about the issue? BTW, this includes GWB as much as Obama and company.

[firstandten]

Oladub

I know we can debate numbers and percentages but senators don't work in a vacuum. I can't be sure but I bet that 9% was a compromise from the original 11% however of course the bill is moot since it didn't pass congress. Plus it was 2006 who thought then that unemployment would get close to 9% much less go over it by a huge margin

I believe you will always have problems with Obama policies because he's not Bob Barr or Ron Paul just like I wish he could be Dennis Kucinich or Bernie Sanders.

But notice with the exception of Mr. Sanders those folks don't win statewide races and Bernie is kind of a unique situation.

My point with Obama is that I believe on most issues he is charting a prudent course. I believe he will be a more savvy, more disciplined and more populist version of President Clinton.


I don't think government has ever practiced econ 101, of course the common folks have to feel the effects of not dealing with the laws of supply and demand

[ccbatson]

Prudent and savy translate to cold, ruthless, and deceptive for Obama. Judging by liberals denial of reality with him, he does a fair job of it.