LIGHT RAIL UPDATE: Ray LaHood to announce federal commitment

[esp1986]

There have been plenty of public forums and the people voted for the politicians who made this happen. What more do you want? A popular vote on this? Should we vote on everything? Want to repave a street? Better vote on it! Want to fix some street lights? Wait for an election so we can vote on it!

Good call... at least they are picking the city's major arteries...

[professorscott]

There's a good reason transportation projects aren't selected by referendum. Watch the "brethren court" scene in Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End to see what I mean.

For the transit project, DDOT did the required studies and selected several corridors, eventually selecting Woodward based on very solid data. The only thing flawed in their analysis was to set the north City limit as a boundary as a prior constraint. M1 Rail selected Woodward for entirely different reasons, but it's relevant that two separate groups, coming at the problem from entirely different angles, reached the same conclusion.

By the way, the twenty-something percent of people who said they would use Woodward Light Rail is vastly in excess of the two percent of the metro population that uses either bus system today. In very few cities does a majority of the population use transit.

[Parkguy]

There's a good reason transportation projects aren't selected by referendum. Watch the "brethren court" scene in Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End to see what I mean.

For the transit project, DDOT did the required studies and selected several corridors, eventually selecting Woodward based on very solid data. The only thing flawed in their analysis was to set the north City limit as a boundary as a prior constraint. M1 Rail selected Woodward for entirely different reasons, but it's relevant that two separate groups, coming at the problem from entirely different angles, reached the same conclusion.

By the way, the twenty-something percent of people who said they would use Woodward Light Rail is vastly in excess of the two percent of the metro population that uses either bus system today. In very few cities does a majority of the population use transit.

Both good, solid points, Professor. We need to have a balanced transportation system, and right now we don't. People will still use their cars, and that's fine. People will still use buses, even on Woodward, and others will use light rail, and others will bicycle or walk. All fine, but the choices will add up to a more balanced system that is broad-based and more efficient. The more choices we have, the more people will use something other than the private auto to get around.

[ghettopalmetto]

And the more the balance can be shifted to modes other than Single Occupancy Automobiles, the less money that MDOT has to pump into an already-overbuilt road system.

[DetroitPlanner]

Maybe Ray will build one of these?
http://inhabitat.com/2010/08/03/chin...news_164515381

On second thought, that won't meet ADA nor will it fit under the people mover or the Milwaukee Junction viaduct. It sure would be fun though to run over cars with!

[DetroitPlanner]

And the more the balance can be shifted to modes other than Single Occupancy Automobiles, the less money that MDOT has to pump into an already-overbuilt road system.

And the less money they have to spend on transit too!!! Remember transit funding comes from the same pot that road funds do [[user registration fees/gas taxes). The bottom line is our financing system needs to be fixed in order for us to have any hope of having a reliable transit system or the roads to efficiently operate buses on [[you can't have an effective transit system that is based soley on rail as its only mode).

[Russix]

Maybe Ray will build one of these?
http://inhabitat.com/2010/08/03/chin...news_164515381

On second thought, that won't meet ADA nor will it fit under the people mover or the Milwaukee Junction viaduct. It sure would be fun though to run over cars with!

It has to be cheaper to build a subway than to re-engineer the roads and bridges to operate one of these on existing infrastructure. Hell it’s probably cheaper to buy a couple of the old Boeing Vertol 107s helicopters and just fly people between the airport and downtown.

[canuck]

And the less money they have to spend on transit too!!! Remember transit funding comes from the same pot that road funds do [[user registration fees/gas taxes). The bottom line is our financing system needs to be fixed in order for us to have any hope of having a reliable transit system or the roads to efficiently operate buses on [[you can't have an effective transit system that is based soley on rail as its only mode).

Bus use overwhelmingly dominates subway, suburban rail and streetcar/rail wherever they cohabitate anyway but as dtowncitylover points out buses do act as feeder systems. This therefore encourages metro or subway use in areas where there are stations. Subways are incredibly expensive to build and a lot of tech glitches will result in delays. No system is perfect but Detroit does deserve more transit. The bus systems are here to stay and progress in design makes them an attractive alternative to extended rail. But in a city like Detroit with weather extremes, a subterranean or streetrail system has a lot of advantages. I think streetrail may be the first event in a series that spurs small business clusters to develop on the corridor thereby enticing communities to streetrail schemes. It will have a balancing effect.

[Detroit Stylin]

Has anyone heard anything esle concerning the Woodward rail line and has anyone else ever szeen this?

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...GKGNnAeDg6SwAg

Looks nice and I think it would be a statement rolling up and down Woodward...

[DetroitPlanner]

Bus use overwhelmingly dominates subway, suburban rail and streetcar/rail wherever they cohabitate anyway but as dtowncitylover points out buses do act as feeder systems. This therefore encourages metro or subway use in areas where there are stations. Subways are incredibly expensive to build and a lot of tech glitches will result in delays. No system is perfect but Detroit does deserve more transit. The bus systems are here to stay and progress in design makes them an attractive alternative to extended rail. But in a city like Detroit with weather extremes, a subterranean or streetrail system has a lot of advantages. I think streetrail may be the first event in a series that spurs small business clusters to develop on the corridor thereby enticing communities to streetrail schemes. It will have a balancing effect.

My point is that we will need to have additional funding to run this service even if we get the feds to pay for most of it. Remember the people mover was built and SEMTA [[who owned the people mover during most of its construction) had to eliminate the Woodward train [[in Dequindre Cut) to pay for its over-runs. Anything we do needs to be done within budget or the rest of our already poor service will be open for cuts to pay for something that will serve only one line, and only up to the State Fair Grounds.

[esp1986]

My point is that we will need to have additional funding to run this service even if we get the feds to pay for most of it. Remember the people mover was built and SEMTA [[who owned the people mover during most of its construction) had to eliminate the Woodward train [[in Dequindre Cut) to pay for its over-runs. Anything we do needs to be done within budget or the rest of our already poor service will be open for cuts to pay for something that will serve only one line, and only up to the State Fair Grounds.

The [[potential) benefit however, is with an operating subsidy in the state budget, the taxes that the state makes back as a result of the economic development in that area, will outweigh the annual subsidy in the long run, allowing the whole thing to be expanded. Portland, OR started with the same type of deal, a nearly 4 mile stretch, which started a bit of economic development, which was a good indication that the whole project was working as planned, and it generated $2.5B in investment. The initial Woodward line is planned to be about the same length, but with the immediate expansion to make it 9.3 miles, that gives us a leg up on Portland from a development standpoint. So the state could be seeing a larger return in the form of taxes than even Portland did, but this is all contingent on it actually happening.

[Hypestyles]

i will be sending my comments to the planners.. I attended the meeting at Considine--well, I kind of missed it, getting there a little after 6 pm, and things wrapped up before 6:30.. there were a few dozen folks there, but not hundreds.. still, I got to see the mock-up designs of the plans that are being considered..

[tkelly1986]

Just a point of clarification needed. If the immediate expansion is supposed to bring the mileage to 9.3 miles, does that mean it is extending past 8 mile? I just assumed Hart Plaza to 8 mile was roughly 8 miles [[or from Campus Matias where the 0 mile marker is…but that is still not 1.3 miles from the river).

[jt1]

Just a point of clarification needed. If the immediate expansion is supposed to bring the mileage to 9.3 miles, does that mean it is extending past 8 mile? I just assumed Hart Plaza to 8 mile was roughly 8 miles [[or from Campus Matias where the 0 mile marker is…but that is still not 1.3 miles from the river).

Woodward goes North West, not directly north/south.

[esp1986]

Woodward goes North West, not directly north/south.

making an eight mile route 1.3 miles longer

[Tig3rzhark]

I'm still wondering if the entire M1 route will be above ground.

I can understand the majority of the area going from Grand Circus Park to W. Grand Blvd. It's reasonable to have the streetcar run above ground.

However, in the downtown area, where it's very narrow, between Campus Martius and Grand Circus Park, it's a different matter.

Also, didn't it also mention that it would run alongside traffic instead of have it's own designated lane? And if we're going to have this train going straight toward Hart Plaza, will it stop underground in the plaza, or will it stop above ground where it could probably block traffic?

[professorscott]

The entire route will be on the ground, not below or above. That much is absolutely certain. Nobody [[in authority) is working on any kind of subway or elevated plan for any portion of this route. Massive cost difference.

[Tig3rzhark]

The entire route will be on the ground, not below or above. That much is absolutely certain. Nobody [[in authority) is working on any kind of subway or elevated plan for any portion of this route. Massive cost difference.

So it will also most likely run alongside traffic instead of having a designated lane?

If so, then that would make it no faster than a SMART bus going down Woodward.

[fryar]

I saw that somewhere on another thread someone had said this was not to be the case, but that issue could be minimized, at least, by running the trams in the middle of Woodward, along the median [[imagine there's a median there). You'd still get people making left turns, but you would not have to deal with double parkers and such.

I agree with you that it's not ideal like this, but I also think it's better than nothing.

[professorscott]

So it will also most likely run alongside traffic instead of having a designated lane?

If so, then that would make it no faster than a SMART bus going down Woodward.

That's one of a thousand details that hasn't been worked out yet.

[Russix]

That's one of a thousand details that hasn't been worked out yet.

I'm betting that they will settle on converting the sidewalks into conveyor belts.

[DetroitPlanner]

The [[potential) benefit however, is with an operating subsidy in the state budget, the taxes that the state makes back as a result of the economic development in that area, will outweigh the annual subsidy in the long run, allowing the whole thing to be expanded. Portland, OR started with the same type of deal, a nearly 4 mile stretch, which started a bit of economic development, which was a good indication that the whole project was working as planned, and it generated $2.5B in investment. The initial Woodward line is planned to be about the same length, but with the immediate expansion to make it 9.3 miles, that gives us a leg up on Portland from a development standpoint. So the state could be seeing a larger return in the form of taxes than even Portland did, but this is all contingent on it actually happening.

Taxes work in silos. Property taxes only go to the state for school districts, none of those dollars go to the transportation system. Other recipients of property taxes are the City, County, Huron Clinton Metroparks, the Library, Wayne County Community College. None of these dollars can be returned to the transit system directly for operating. The best hope it has is to get additional operating funds from the City, which is already in a huge hole and may elect to use those dollars on police, fire, or other programs.

One of the benefits of upgraded transit along Woodward would be the opporunity to use GPS with the traffic controllers that time the lights. This technology can be shared with other first responders, allowing better access to the DMC or Henry Ford for ambulances, or better timing for fire or police personnell to cross Woodward. This can be done however with buses or BRT as well, it will be up to the EIS to determine what is the best mode.

[esp1986]

Taxes work in silos. Property taxes only go to the state for school districts, none of those dollars go to the transportation system. Other recipients of property taxes are the City, County, Huron Clinton Metroparks, the Library, Wayne County Community College. None of these dollars can be returned to the transit system directly for operating. The best hope it has is to get additional operating funds from the City, which is already in a huge hole and may elect to use those dollars on police, fire, or other programs.

One of the benefits of upgraded transit along Woodward would be the opporunity to use GPS with the traffic controllers that time the lights. This technology can be shared with other first responders, allowing better access to the DMC or Henry Ford for ambulances, or better timing for fire or police personnell to cross Woodward. This can be done however with buses or BRT as well, it will be up to the EIS to determine what is the best mode.

Ever heard of state income taxes? Income taxes on the businesses and people that run them and live near there will be exponentially higher than the measly property taxes. If Portland got $2.5 Billion in investment out of a 3.5 mile stretch, figure the state would likely see at least 4-5% of that back in taxes, as that is the state tax rate, and if the investment were warranted in the first place, the investors, or business owners, will likely get at least that back. Now, granted that is over a period of time, but the return is at least $125 Million. Now if the line continues to expand, that number just continues to go up. Property taxes aren't the half of it. The subsidy in the state budget will be helped mightily by the tax increase to the state, which is where the state can justify the subsidy.

[DetroitPlanner]

Ever heard of state income taxes? Income taxes on the businesses and people that run them and live near there will be exponentially higher than the measly property taxes. If Portland got $2.5 Billion in investment out of a 3.5 mile stretch, figure the state would likely see at least 4-5% of that back in taxes, as that is the state tax rate, and if the investment were warranted in the first place, the investors, or business owners, will likely get at least that back. Now, granted that is over a period of time, but the return is at least $125 Million. Now if the line continues to expand, that number just continues to go up. Property taxes aren't the half of it. The subsidy in the state budget will be helped mightily by the tax increase to the state, which is where the state can justify the subsidy.

Yes I have, state income taxes are not used to fund transit either. It all comes from Act 51 of 1951. The overwhelming majority of funding that funds transportation at the federal and state level is the gas tax, with some money getting thrown in from registration fees.

[professorscott]

One of the benefits of upgraded transit along Woodward would be the opporunity to use GPS with the traffic controllers that time the lights. This technology can be shared with other first responders, allowing better access to the DMC or Henry Ford for ambulances, or better timing for fire or police personnell to cross Woodward. This can be done however with buses or BRT as well, it will be up to the EIS to determine what is the best mode.

Absolutely, 'planner, that is one of the topics that has been on the table all along. There are various versions of it, but the basic idea is the approaching vehicle [[light rail, BRT bus, fire truck, whoever is equipped) sends a message to the traffic signal control unit requesting a green light. In the case of a fire truck, the signal may be programmed to respond very abruptly; in the case of a transit vehicle, it might just cause the signal phase to shift a few seconds from its normal operation. This technology is in use all over the world, and works very well.

I'd actually be very surprised if something like this doesn't make it into the project.