The Grande Ballroom

[Gistok]

LeoB,

Last week Lowell contacted me about a contact he received from the grandson of Graven & Mayger cofounder Anker Sveere Graven. It seems that the Graven grandson wanted to know where the derogatory comments about his grandfather [[now posted on more than one blog and DYES) originated from.

Were you made aware of the grandson's inquiries? I pointed to the 2008 DYES thread on the Vanity Ballroom link which I mention in Post 18 of this thread. In that old thread, you found the 1983 interview of Charles N. Agree, where he made disparaging remarks about Yaeger & Yaeger [[he couldn't remember their names)... and we linked that reference to likely being Graven & Mayger of Chicago.

I would love to hear from the Graven grandson, to get his take on his ancestor and their architectural output and dealings with Agree.

[Leo B]

Kathleen,
No worries - no harm done

Gistok,
I will message Lowell regarding the Graven descendant. I have material in the book regarding them and could use more or at least a clarification on Agree's remarks.
Thanks,

Leo B

[Gistok]

Leo,

Giving credit to Graven & Mayger for any of the Grande Ballroom's interior is more of a challenge than giving them credit for the Vanity Ballroom's interior.

Back in the 1920's movie palaces [[and even ballrooms) in a Moorish style were much more common than a Mayanesque style.

Theatre Historical Society [[of Elmhurst IL) mentions that "Mayanesque theatres were never in great supply, and on a large scale they numbered only one.... the Fisher". The same is not true for Moorish style theatres. [[I only mention theatres because in many instances during the 1920s the movie palace architects also designed the dance floor ballrooms.)

There were many more Moorish style movie palaces built in the 1920s. So if you can find some undeniable matches between the old Fisher Theatre and the Vanity Ballroom [[mainly the Mayan cartouches).... then it would make Graven & Mayger connection to the decorations of the Grande Ballroom all the more likely [[since Graven & Mayger designed the Moorish style Tennessee Theatre in Knoxville TN, and the Moorish style Alabama Theatre in Birmingham AL). I remember you mentioning that you wanted to visit the Tennessee Theatre.

There is an old "Detroit - Remember When" PBS Channel 56 show from circa 2003 or 2004 that shows the only surviving Mayan decorative plaster wall of the Fisher... narrated by former Theatre Manager back then [[Jim Luzenski of Preservation Wayne).

I think I have a copy of that video somewhere....

[Leo B]

Gistok
I made it to both the Tennessee and the Alabama last year. Amazing !
Drop me an e-mail via my webmaster account at www.thegrandeballroom.com and I'll provide additional details.

[papillonaquatique]

Papillionantique--Good luck finding anything on the Grande from its early years, most all you see on the building was from the period in the 60s when the down-on-its-luck building was the site of a vibrant rock music scene. Very few people alive today care about the original purpose for constructing ballrooms like the Grande and Vanity [[name one building expressly constructed for the presentation of rock music--I don't know of one in the USA).

That is a damn pity considering that ballroom dancing is making a little bit of a comeback. The Grande is a wreck currently. I wonder just how much better The Vanity is though. The idea of springs under the floor is quite interesting and is sure to pose an renovation dilema all on its own. I like the idea of renovating either building but I wouldn't know where to start. I have assisted with some smaller home projects but nothing on this scale. Who even owns The Vanity now?

[pffft]

papillon,
It's always annoyed me that the only Grande period discussed is the late '60s/early '70s, as if the music and culture of the 20s-50s was of no consequence whatsoever. Tunnel vision.

[Hamtragedy]

The Grande and Vanity are both owned by ministers or churches. Too bad Jesus isn't pulling his weight and parting the rains so they don't damage the floors and plasterwork. Also too bad is that Jesus didn't clean up the mess from the church picnic at Balduck Park yesterday.

[detroiturbex]

The Grande is in terrible shape.



First floor shops. There are a lot of holes in the floor, wreckage everywhere. Nearly everything that can fall down has fallen down.









I don't know the first thing about construction, so I have no clue if the building is too far gone to be saved.

Vanity isn't much better, but the last time we were in there DPD showed up within minutes. Hopefully this means someone is watching over it.

[papillonaquatique]

Goodness gracious! By the looks of things it is a miracle that The Grande has not been torn down for being a hazard!

I imagine that the cost to stabilize the structure in order to place a roof on that thing will cost you at least ten grand and really what is left to protect? Not to mention the cost of asbestos clean up. Looks like a death trap!

It was so beautiful in its heyday too.

[detroitbob]

nothing can be done with either the Grande or the Vanity...I would hope someone could salvage some of the decorative plaster from the Vanity, as there is a link to the Fisher Theatre in the design but that probably won't happen.

[wolverine]

I don't know the first thing about construction, so I have no clue if the building is too far gone to be saved.

Don't know about Detroit's codes, in the majority of places, it can not be renovated into a place of assembly. It would never make it past approval...reason being the main floor of assembly is heavy timber construction. It would have to be ripped out and replaced with steel or concrete. Basically the whole building would have to be gutted to just the exterior walls and then filled back in. I wouldn't call that "saving it" but that's the best move you could make, unfortunately very costly.

Then of course, you could renovate it into some other use where timber frame construction is permitted by code.

[Wingnatic]

Here's a pretty cool site in regards to the Grande

http://www.motorcitymusicarchives.com/

[rsa.313]

Don't know about Detroit's codes, in the majority of places, it can not be renovated into a place of assembly. It would never make it past approval...reason being the main floor of assembly is heavy timber construction. It would have to be ripped out and replaced with steel or concrete. Basically the whole building would have to be gutted to just the exterior walls and then filled back in. I wouldn't call that "saving it" but that's the best move you could make, unfortunately very costly.

Then of course, you could renovate it into some other use where timber frame construction is permitted by code.

code allows older structures to be "grandfathered in." you can renovate a structure to it's original use without having to conform to most modern codes. however, it depends on how much you modify the original plan. you can always apply for variances to any code [[not assuming you'd get it though).

[papillonaquatique]

So in otherwords you would have to buy the building at tear everything out, put a new roof on it and then fill it all back in provided that there are some things worth salvaging that haven't been destroyed or graffitied beyond use. That is also assuming that the foundation is stable.

You are looking at a huge loss of cash with either of these building because it would take you at least $100,000 to renovate and that is a highly conservative estimate. Then you would have to pay more to actually turn it into a place that someone would want to go. Unless you could get volunteer renovation there is no way you could break even.

[Fury13]

...there is no way you could break even.

That says it all right there. It's history.

[papillonaquatique]

That says it all right there. It's history.

There are other options for the buildings. You could get a group of people together and do some fundraising and perhaps turn the building into a public use building like a library or such. Although the current outlook is bleak I do think that the building can be saved if the right people get together. I wouldn't be so quick to count either of these buildings down and out just yet.

[EastSider]

There are other options for the buildings. You could get a group of people together and do some fundraising and perhaps turn the building into a public use building like a library or such.

Number one, talk to the Alger Theater people about renovation through fundraising.
Number two, the city has enough trouble keeping open the branches it already has. You want to create another one in a broken-down wreck of a building?
Number three, reference the Vinton rehab if you're not convinced by number one.

[Leo B]

What has kept the Grande erect is the re-inforced concrete structure. It is essentially a concrete bunker w/ concrete pillars and beams. The lower floor plaster has liquified and interior wooden walls rotted away.
I can't and won't comment on the Church's plans for this structure and would suggest that any legitimate parties offering assistance or creative proposals contact me off forum.

Leo B

[papillonaquatique]

What has kept the Grande erect is the re-inforced concrete structure. It is essentially a concrete bunker w/ concrete pillars and beams. The lower floor plaster has liquified and interior wooden walls rotted away.
I can't and won't comment on the Church's plans for this structure and would suggest that any legitimate parties offering assistance or creative proposals contact me off forum.

Leo B

I would love to see The Grande back on its feet but what could possibly be done with it at this point realistically? If you have a plan or even a dream for The Grande I am open to hearing it at least. I want to help but from what I have seen I don't think you can do anything with it.

[Fury13]

There are other options for the buildings. You could get a group of people together and do some fundraising and perhaps turn the building into a public use building like a library or such. Although the current outlook is bleak I do think that the building can be saved if the right people get together. I wouldn't be so quick to count either of these buildings down and out just yet.

Papillon: ever heard of the old advice regarding business?

"Location, location, location!"

The same holds true for a public-use building [[and there is no need for additional public library branches).

Who is going to patronize a rehabbed Grande, given the horrible neighborhood that it's is?

There is a little more hope for the Vanity, given that it's in [[slightly) better condition and that it's just a stone's throw from Grosse Pointe. Also, the Jefferson East Business Association is actively working to make that neighborhood more vital.

My opinion: save the Vanity if possible, let the Grande go.

[papillonaquatique]

Papillon: ever heard of the old advice regarding business?

"Location, location, location!"

The same holds true for a public-use building [[and there is no need for additional public library branches).

Who is going to patronize a rehabbed Grande, given the horrible neighborhood that it's is?

There is a little more hope for the Vanity, given that it's in [[slightly) better condition and that it's just a stone's throw from Grosse Pointe. Also, the Jefferson East Business Association is actively working to make that neighborhood more vital.

My opinion: save the Vanity if possible, let the Grande go.

Although location is important my wanting to save The Grande and The Vanity has to do with my love of architecture and I don't mind taking a loss to save such pretty art but I have my limit. I think The Grande is indeed too far gone for hope. The Vanity however still has some seemingly salvagable pieces but the owner doesn't sound like he would appreciate someone removing those elements from his building even for cash.

[Leo B]

Trolling.......

[papillonaquatique]

Trolling.......

Like you I like The Grande but honestly what could possibly be done with it now? Everything inside can not be saved at all. Unless you know of some other like minded people I should talk to who have a plan and some money to invest in that place I don't see what can be done. Personally I would have liked to return it to its original roots and used the downstairs for retail but there is just nothing that can be done. I certainly can't do it alone. If you have a plan I want to hear it because I honestly can't see The Grande being saved at this point in time. It is just too far gone.

[papillonaquatique]

Still bumping this thread in the hopes of someone posting older photographs.

[pkbroch]

I would love to see The Grande back on its feet but what could possibly be done with it at this point realistically? If you have a plan or even a dream for The Grande I am open to hearing it at least. I want to help but from what I have seen I don't think you can do anything with it.

You really haven't even been within 100 miles of these buildings. Like I said in your Vanity Ballroom rehab thread, Get yourself on a plane and fly here.
Delta flies several times a day for around $ 319.00 round trip. See what you are asking people to invest in. If you are really serious this is the only way to go.